"And I'll just point out the dichotomy one more time, for the record: be strong by standing up for what you believe is right, because women are not attracted to wimps. But don't be strong by standing up for what you believe is right, because women are not attracted to a combative attitude."
Its all about how you state your position. Compare empathic:
"Honey, I think X."
"But I think Y."
"Honey, I do see your point, but I still think X."
[Honey feels listened to and validated.]
with combative:
"Honey, I think X."
"But I think Y."
"Honey, you have completely missed the point. You totally ignored A, B and C. Look here, and here and here. X is the only possible answer."
[Whether or not X is objectively right, Honey now feels that you think she's an idiot.]
As you will see in john gray's mars and venus books, stating and sticking to what he thinks is right, in an assured but empathic way (but of course giving way when he realises he is wrong), without making his wife feel browbeaten or worn down, is an art that a husband must master. Its not about manipulation I hasten to add - because the end result of many discussions is bound to be the same - its about the pattern and emotional tone of the interaction. A woman needs to feel respected and listened to. As a very rough general rule, the more explanation and proof and rebuttal you provide, the more likely it is that she will feel you are being combative and treating her like a colleague at work that you simply have to prove wrong. A marriage is not a work environment, so a different approach is required. A similar approach applies to a BB on which men and women are sharing all kinds of emotional and sexual insights with each other - yes?
"This is one of the things that worries me the most ... Do I really want to be the scapegoat?"
Read my last post on Cinco's thread for starters.
You are being way too logical and analytical about the nature of female sexual desire and the role of fantasy.
Its about bridging the gap between male and female, usually a space filled by distrust and fear. Trust and fantasy can provide a safe way across that gap.
To give an analogy - your wife loves beautiful views, but is too scared of heights to go on her own. You manfully help and guide her to the top, perhaps even carry her part of the way. She enjoys the view but grips your hand throughout.
Maybe next time she will not need so much help. Over time its unlikely she will feel the same kind of fear; she may even lose it altogether.
"How does she stay in love with the guy who forces immorality on her, even if she enjoys the immoral filth at the moment it's happening?"
How is it forcing? I think Bagheera explained all this very clearly. You've effectively answered your own question - if she enjoys the view from the top she's not going to complain that you had to pull her along. She may well end up loving you even more!
SB, much as you would like your wife to be as unafraid of heights as you, that appears not to be the case. Maybe that doesn't seem fair, but then nothing about life ever has to be. You are going to have to take the lead.
S&A
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated" - from The Old Man and the Sea, by Ernest Hemingway.
Which I take to mean that every man has within him a spirit of relentlessness and optimism. Its already there; he just has to cultivate it.
and you could fill in the blank ___________. With anything.....
IE~ ___________________ for your man can be something a woman really enjoys. Beyond the fun the man has in this, the woman can really touch into a whole new feeling inside of herself by __________________. Usually a woman really needs her man to ask her to do this for him in order for her to feel the "permission" she needs to get in touch with this part of herself. But it will be such an erotic experience for HER if her man can gently help her get into .....
Fill it in withh Role playing.... Dancing naked.... Putting your finger * _______ *and then putting it in his mouth.... OOPs soory forgot to put the parental discretion advised before I posted ,,, but we are all adults here.... just about anything.... It is all about being open...... and her comfort level and you can gently take her there.....
I personally have never stripped... but I have done the role playing * ( actually all of my examples )* and boy did hubby enjoy that * them)*... and I got to wear my stilletos!
I love those shoes they are just so naughty... JUst my 2 cents... proceed with discussion....
Ali - Please don't mention stilletos. It's a little mean to tease a guy that will probably never get to experience that. Remember you're talking to the guy stuck in Birkie-land.
Never mind go on and tease, you know I love it... I can still dream about it anyway.
You are being way too logical and analytical about the nature of female sexual desire and the role of fantasy.
I know this could be true. I'm just having a hard time making it work for me. So far about the best I've managed is to shut up about my analytical thoughts.
The concept of not thinking about something is alien to me. I just want to do the right thing. It just feels too easy to be true--I just stop thinking and hope for the best, and it all works out? Impossible! TANSTAAFL! And I know that thinking it through has gotten me nothing but misery for ten years, and I know that I'm finally seeing things change between us for the better, but I still don't trust it.
Anybody here see Ronin? Spence: "You think too hard." Sam: "Nobody ever told me that before."
Strong & Alive, your point is well taken. Still . . .
Quote:
with combative:
"Honey, I think X."
"But I think Y."
"Honey, you have completely missed the point. You totally ignored A, B and C. Look here, and here and here. X is the only possible answer."
[Whether or not X is objectively right, Honey now feels that you think she's an idiot.]
I can certainly understand that difference. On the other hand, I wasn't the one who told someone he "completely missed the point" or accused someone else of deliberately misunderstanding. Those things were said to me, not by me. I still don't quite get why two people disagreed about something (rather mildly, in point of fact) and only one has the bad attitude, but we could pick nits all night.
I'm on call until 6:0 a.m. my time, so that's not an idle threat. I think instead I'll just stop hijacking DQ's sex blog now.
I never accused you of "deliberately misunderstanding".
And I do not have a bad attitude.
I simply don't want to engage in what I consider to be a combative discussion with you. That doesn't mean I have a bad attitude, but you are entitled to your opinion, although I think you are totally projecting.
In any case, can you please drop it now? I can't figure out if you are trying to bait me back into something or what but...WTF? I don't really care that much about it at all, and I can't see why you are continuing to talk about it. Please? Let it go?
I really do know and understand how upset you both are about the lack of sex.
But I have to point out a common mistake you are both making.
Because I visit other "relationship" type message boards, I have come across this specific issue among many people, not just sex starved. That issue goes something like this:
You have the thought that "if she loved me enough, she would do x".
Usually it is women who make this mistake, because women tend to expect men to read their minds. "If he loved me, he would know that I needed him to be more attentive". That type of thing. And the normal advice to these (usually) women is, that this is problematic thinking. It is going to do nothing but create problems. You can't project that "if he or she loved me" they would do a certain thing. It just doesn't work like that.
You are both making that mistake now. You are confusing your wives' lack of sexual attention to you as that "she must not love me or should would know how this is affecting me".
The truth is that she does NOT know and does NOT understand how it is affecting you, and therefore, it is not deliberate.
If I remember correctly, neither of your wives have read or finished reading the SSM book?
Please try to get this - - a LD spouse does NOT know what they are doing to the HD spouse. They just don't. If they really read and comprehend the SSM book they will begin to understand. Without that or something just as powerful, they will likely never get it.
I used to be a LD spouse and I had no clue what it was doing to my ex-h. I can try to explain this to you if you want to ask specific questions...but please just take my word for it that I had no clue.
I didn't think about "oh I guess we haven't had sex for a while, therefore he must be getting pretty antcy about it, I better go get us some lovin's so he will feel loved and then our relationship will improve". Instead I thought more things like this..."I'm very depressed, I don't know why. I wish I had more emotional support. I wish he understood me better. I wish I wanted to make love to him more but he has no clue what turns me on or why, he just seems to need sex but not true intimacy. I can't seem to explain the difference to him nor what I truly need. No matter how many times we talk about it, I cannot seem to express myself, he just gets upset and won't listen. Sigh...I hope things will be alright".
And yes, I realize that my thinking I described above does seem to indicate that I realized there was a problem with the lack of sex, but please read between the lines and realize that I really did and had tried to get him to understand what I needed....which was way more than sex.
Also remember that in retrospect now, I realized that nothing short of full on MC and intensive study about our marital issues would have helped or saved us.
So both Cinco and NTE...I will say it again. I think you both need to drag (if necessary) your wives in to MC. I think you both need to firmly but lovingly remind your wives that you will not live like this forever, but that you are willing to do whatever hard work it takes.
If we had some MC, I could have explained those thoughts I was trying to explain to my ex-h, and a counselor could have helped me/us get it out on the table in a meaningful way.
Your wives really DO have their own issues that have to do with YOU and your relationship. They did not build the sexless marriage on their own, simply by being LD. That is what the book is all about. It is so much more than that, but you can't focus on anything except the lack of sex right now.
Please don't think that I don't see you have both made HUGE efforts to fix this.... I do see that. But the last step you need to make, which is to basically deliver an ultimatum and make your wife stick to it ("I will not live in a sexless marriage forever, regardless of my love for you, we need to go to MC or else I need to separate from you"), until you have the cajones to take that last step, you will never really know if you can fix your SSM's or not.
Don't be like me. My ex-h and I assumed we could somehow fix it ourselves or that it would just go away somehow. Here we are divorced, and NOW we realize that full on MC plus extensive study was our only option.....THE ONE OPTION WE NEVER TOOK. He never had the cajones to give me that ultimatum, and I never had the courage to admit I needed more than he could give me. The cowards inside us won, they are divorced now.
The braver parts of ourselves know better now, but its too late.
OOPs soory forgot to put the parental discretion advised before I posted ,,, but we are all adults here.... 
~Ali