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This is the kind of stuff that really gets me mad at her. We both screwed up last night. Both really over reacted to the things the other did. I apologized and asked for forgiveness this morning. She never replied, never admittedt that she might have been in the wrong either. She just starts acting like nothing ever happened. And she thinks we resolve conflict well.

If we did not have kids...

Time to go back to the no sex strike. I have no desire to sleep with somebody like this.

NTE

Quite simply put, Near, this isn't making love. No deep physical connection, no deep emotional connection; just a very quick, mechanical exchange of orgasms, with YOU doing all of the work.

My impression continues to be that she is so angry, resentful, and disconnected from you that during sex she refuses to (a) pleasure you in any way, and (b) allow you to actually pleasure her --> in essence, you aren't permitted to be her real lover.

I've said it before, but you both need serious counseling and help. Not some local pastor who's going to tell you to be happy with what you're getting (which is no connection AT ALL), but a professional sex therapist who can work you BOTH through the issues that you have.

I'd be really curious to hear you wife's answer if I were to ask her to tell me about your courtship and early marriage. Would she recall it fondly (and miss those early days)? Or is she at the point where those fond memories have been pushed so far away that she can't recall them? This isn't just an idle question: it's one of the ways in which marriage counselors 'gauge' the current state of a relationship, even a very strained one. If both partners can still recall those memories of how in love they used to be, of how attractive their partner used to be, then there is at least a foundation there from which to work.

I wish I had something better to say that this. At the point you're currently at, a good bottle of hand lotion would be more satisfying and give you a better emotion connection (with yourself) than anything that is currently happening with your wife.

Take care, my friend.

-- B.

NTE - I also empahtize with what you are describing.

I don't know what to say, other than - ouch. And yeah, I can see why you'd rather go on strike than make love under those conditions.

Sigh...Can you brace yourself for some tough love here for a moment??

Um, your wife would probably describe a similar, blah, no-connection experience if she were to tell someone about having sex with you.

Now I understand that from your point of view, you would touch her and love her and please her all you could IF SHE WOULD ONLY LET YOU. So in your mind, it is ALL HER FAULT that your sex together is so unfulfilling for both of you, because you are willing and she simply won't let you be a good lover to her.

So in order for you to make any progress at all - you should try to step outside your own sitch and see what it looks like.

To her, it is probably all YOUR fault. To you, it is all HER fault. To an outside observer, it is simply two people who are not able to connect now after years of going about it the wrong way. Neither is wrong or right. You both feel you have "already tried" when it comes to fixing the problems, and you are too tired and exhausted and depressed to try again, because you both expect failure on the part of the other spouse.

Your wife and you are both failing YOURSELVES.

That is what I learned after my divorce. My husband wasn't failing me, I was failing myself.

I was your wife (well, not quite, I wasn't quite a cold fish) but I definitely was fussy in bed and wouldn't let him touch me all that much, and refused to let him pleasure me other than in my own prescribed ways, nor would I truly pleasure him. He secretly hated me because I had taken his manhood away over time, because I would reject him and I was bitchy a lot. I secretly hated him because he was too lazy to ever man up and do something about our relationship problems. How were we ever supposed to have a good sex experience under those conditions?

But instead of ever realizing that I was half or more of the problem at that time, I would still just simmer and stew about how he wouldn't man up. Instead of ever realizing that he needed to man up a LOT, he just simmered about how I held the keys to our sex life and (he felt) I dangled them in front of his face, laughing.

If only I could have stepped out of myself, forgiven him for the past, and truly TRULY from my heart - tried to put it together again with NO BITTERNESS.

Well...I couldn't do that. We are divorced. It was horrible, way worse than I thought it would be.

Please - I'm telling you straight up - no matter how much you think you've already tried everything you can, the one thing you haven't tried yet is just forgiving her and starting over from a place of love only.

You two need a really good counselor.

Now ... I wanted to address what you said about you had a fight last night about each other's tone...

In my current relationship, my man sometimes uses a tone with me that makes me get INSANE angry at him, and I have spent the past 4 years with him slowly training him that he simply cannot use this tone with me. The tone can be described as "talking to me like I am stupid", or "answering a question as if he is annoyed that I asked". These are tones he uses in the rest of his life, and he sometimes does talk down to people and doesn't realize it. Well, that chit just don't fly with me. No one is going to talk to me like that...barring something like they just had a really crappy day or some once in a blue moon thing. I can forgive that. But if I ask him a question in a sweet tone, and am truly waiting for his answer so I can do something for him or help him (ie: "Honey, corn or broccoli with dinner tonight?") and he answers me with "I already SAID what I wanted when we talked last night" in a tone that implies I am stupid...and maybe I simply forgot he said that last night, and therefore, why do I deserve the "stupid" tone? I am not trying to annoy him, I am trying to feed him. Yes maybe he already told me, but we also talked about 200 other things between last night and now and I worked and did all the shopping, my mind is busy too, etc etc. Well I'm telling you - that tone does NOT fly with me if I didn't deserve it. I immediately put a stop to him doing this.

But that then usually ensues into a fight. He cannot seem to understand that I will never accept being talked down to. Not once has he ever gotten away with using that tone with me, without me telling him to back the hell up and do that over again. And yet, his first reaction when I tell him to back up is ALWAYS to be defensive about it.

OK...why am I rambling on about this?....I am just telling you, in case it is relevant to your sitch last night with the fight about tones - - that I am in the camp that you *must* temper your tone ALWAYS with your loved ones at home, and you never snap into an unloving tone for no reason. I am guessing that both you and your wife are to blame for this?

Yes, it sounded like her unforgiving attitude about it in the morning was not the best way to handle it...but my guess is that maybe your tone issues are more on your side than hers???

NTE - we're here for ya, man. Keep venting. Don't feel defensive if any of us implies you have work to do too...but most of all, yes your sitch sounds uncomfortable and I feel for ya! I hope you can find happy from here. We're rooting for you.

DQ

NTE,

Just checking in on you. Did you look at the books I suggested?

How are things outside the marriage? I know you have lots of financial pressure - do all that you realistically can to deal with it. You always have to have a plan. That might seem strange advice on an SSM website, but its not really. I used to let my own unhappiness distract me from doing what I had to do in this department. It became a very convenient excuse, and my procrastination eventually caused real problems.

But I got through them, and in the process taught myself some really effective mental tools - one of which is this.

Learn to "empty your head" frequently.

When at work, "empty your head" of any problems at home and focus on doing the very best you can do.

When with your kids, "empty your head" of everything but being a cool and loving dad.

When at the gym, "empty your head" of everything but pushing your body to the limit for that hour or whatever it is.

When spending time with your wife, "empty your head" of all past resentment. Really. Forget all those difficult years. They are gone. Today is all there is. Speak and act from the warm fuzzy depths of you that still love her (despite all her faults) as your wife of many years and the mother of your fantastic children. "Empty your head" of all the negative stuff and gift her with your very best attention, presence and emotion. That doesn't mean you're being some kind of wimp - quite the opposite. It means you are incredibly strong and powerful and able to summon up love for her as an act of will.

This also ties in with what DanceQueen said:

"But instead of ever realizing that I was half or more of the problem at that time, I would still just simmer and stew about how he wouldn't man up. Instead of ever realizing that he needed to man up a LOT, he just simmered about how I held the keys to our sex life and (he felt) I dangled them in front of his face, laughing.

If only I could have stepped out of myself, forgiven him for the past, and truly TRULY from my heart - tried to put it together again with NO BITTERNESS.

Well...I couldn't do that. We are divorced. It was horrible, way worse than I thought it would be.

Please - I'm telling you straight up - no matter how much you think you've already tried everything you can, the one thing you haven't tried yet is just forgiving her and starting over from a place of love only."

You see NTE, every troubled marriage needs someone to break the cycle, to be the hero. I suggest that in this marriage its obviously you.

I hear what you're saying about the typical kind of sex you have with your wife. Been there, done that. I empathise.

Which leads me to wonder what you're thinking while this is going on. What vibes are you sending out, what kind of spirit are you doing it all in?

What my own "journey" has taught me is the very powerful place of the mind in dictating human experience. Everything in human history started in the mind. Everything. Maybe you need to change the way you think while having sex.

Next time, make a deliberate and conscious effort to empty your head. Ditch the resentment, and the apprehension that this will be like all the other times. Resolve that this time will be different.

Focus on all the things about your wife that you love - her qualities, her body. Imagine your whole body filling up with love for her. And then just give it all to her. Firmly but sensually, without panic, without rushing - kissing, squeezing, wrapping of legs and arms, penetration, thrusting... - through it all visualise and feel and see yourself emptying all that love into her.

Try making love to your wife in this way, and see if you or she feel the difference.

Good luck,

S&A

The best way of emptying your head is to GET INTO your body.

Ok guys, thanks for being there for me again. In advance, this post is still part venting!

I have continue to believe that I have things that I desperately need to change about me. A couple of years ago I was so depressed that I came very close to ending it all. Circumstances have changed only a little since then, but I can feel the pull back in that direction. This is where "manning up" comes in. Due to financial and work failures, I had lost all my self respect, which led to my wife losing all respect for me. This is what I have to work on now, for my own sake.

I had given away an essential part of my manhood and integrity at that point to try and make a living. I will not do that again.

When I really started thinking about what bothered me about my wife's tone, I realized that it was because she sounds exactly like she does when she is getting onto the kids. I am not her child and will not be treated as such. In the past, I always was passive agresive about this (recent past). Not a very manly thing to do. I had started fighting back in the same tone, which at least made me feel better. Now I realize the problem isn't so much that she is a b**ch, its that she is taling to me as a child. That indicates a much deeper issue in our relationship. That is what I need to fix. I am the only one who can restore my self respect and manliness. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether our marriage stands or falls. I need this for me.

In the meantime. Her asexuality is not going to change and I am going to stop frustrating myself with her. She has no desire to change nor can I lay down an utlimatum that I will stick to. Therefore the sexual status quo will remain. I am married to a blow up doll, sexually. Actually, it is worse than that, dolls don't complain and critisize.

I am going to work on fixing me as a man and a dad. That is it. She can rot and dry up for all I care.

I realize this is setting up one or both of us for an affair, but right now, I don't care.

NTE

Vent away, NTE. You do need an outlet to vent.

Have you had time to think things over a bit more since your last post?

DanceQueen

Dance,

Yeah, I have been thinking some, though I am not all the way out of the woods.

I have to work on me.

I have to confront her directly about her tone with me. I can not let her continue to use the same tone on me as on our children. I am not her child nor am I subject to her directives. I need to work on not treating her like she is stupid when she asks questions she really ought to know the answer to (in my opinion).

I am going to continue the sex strike. I have no need to feel degraded after trying to have sex or after having had sex with her. I realize I generally feel worse afterwards. I satisfy myself better than she does anyway. I don't critisize myself for my performance or whatever else. Certainly I am not witholding anything from her that she values.

I will talk with her about the sex, but I am not sure what good that will do. We can't afford the copays for a lousy therapist, much less pay the going rate for a good one. This implies that there is no immediate solution available. In my opinion, even getting her to the point where she would admit she has an issue (highly unlikely) would do no good as she has no way of getting past the issues. Again, her opinion, this is all about me. But, why identify a problem that you are in no position to fix or work on?

So, my plan is to hit a place where I can survive the holding pattern until finances improve or she is hit by lighting or otherwise notices that our marriage is not sound.

NTE

Update:

We had a huge fight last night. All in all it was a good thing as we aired and resolved a number of issues related to our situation. Went through how we have been addressing each other as well how she percieved me sliding back towards depression. Understandably, that has dramaticaly colored her views toward me.

I slept on the couch last night as she has been complaining that my snoring has kept her awake, thus a great deal of her attitude. I have been snoring due to a shoulder injury that will not let me sleep in my usual position. When I actually prepped the couch, she seemed a little upset. My plan is to go the bed in the basement starting tonight. I can only handle the couch for a while due to my back. I don't see why I should stay in the marriage bed just to co-sleep, espeically if I contribute to her lack of sleep.

No disucssion of sex and I am not going to ask or initiate any. We have kind of a gift vacation coming up next week, so maybe that will help my spirits, I could use a lift.

NTE

NTE - Well it would appear you are headed for the basement. I don't think that is a good move. I understand your reasoning, but it is faulty. That isn't meant to be a dig on you, its just that nearly all people in your position, with years of animosity between you, cannot see logical reasoning in your situation. That is why it is faulty. You are both too close to the sitch to gain any true perspective.

But keep venting, journaling, letting us know what's up, even if it gets worse. We're here for ya...I know you have said it before that counseling is out of the question because (in your words) your wife won't agree to it, but as a few of us here have been saying, it seems to be your only hope of getting an outside objective opinion and some new ideas to try.

I know you don't really want to try anymore though, and that is a big problem of course.

We're here for ya.

DQ