Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums Midlife Crisis H deep in A & MLC, need support 4 roller coaster!

Thank you all for visiting my thread! I really appreciate having the benefits of having your wisdom. I feel less alone now that I have gotten involved on this board. It also helps to know that others have had similar problems with A's which started through Second Life. I agree that SL is evil, but I have to say that H (and other WAS's who have done similar things) are the real problem. SL makes it easier, but it wouldn't be an issue if it weren't for WAS's inclination to go down the A path.

I have been extremely busy with work lately, which is why I haven't posted in a few days and don't have a lot of time right now. I've been reading some, but not posting.

I have been reading a book my IC lent me--James Dobson's "Love Must be Tough." I had heard of it before, but didn't really know anything about it. Is anyone here familiar with it? I haven't finished it yet, but between that and some other things, I am starting to seriously consider telling H that it's time for him to get off the fence now. It's been a year since he first encountered OW in SL, 11 months since the start of the cybersex, 10 months since I found evidence of something really being wrong, and 9 months since H meeting OW in RL and huge blowup between H and me. Many people in RL have been encouraging me to issue an ultimatum since the very beginning, but I wasn't ready, and I really felt that I was being told "Wait" by that still small voice. I am operating from a MUCH stronger place now, and I wouldn't be doing it out of desperation, but more out of a conviction that it was time, and out of a much healthier respect for myself, and much better detachment (although I have in no way detached completely). The main thing I worry about in the case that he leaves is the finances. My business is doing much better than it was before last fall, but my income is still probably below poverty level--and even with both of our incomes, with his being maybe 5 times mine, we struggle financially (would be better if H weren't spending on OW like he's paying for her on the $500/month installment plan :/).

If I do confront him about this, I would expect to say something like, "It's time for you to make a decision. If you want to be with OW, you have two weeks to find somewhere else to live. If you want to be with me, you need to make some major changes. Either way, this has gone on long enough. But I do want to make clear that this is not my choice; it is yours. All I am saying is that it is time for you to make it." That's it. Short and unemotional. No threats, anger, D talk, or complaints. At this point, I have no intention of asking for a D or filing. I feel like if that's something he wants, he needs to go after it, although I can certainly appreciate the possibility that I may eventually have to force the issue one way or another. I do not want a D, but if our marriage is going to work, he has to make a lot of changes first. I've already made bucketloads of them myself.

H has asked me on a regular basis if I had anything to say about the whole situation--maybe once a month. On the advice of my DB coach, mostly I have just smiled slightly and said no. When he does talk to me (very rarely), he mostly talks about how confused he is and how unhappy he's been for how long, and how difficult things are for him now (yeah, my heart bleeds for you, H). No remorse or concern for how I might be feeling that I can see. I often see him wondering silently what is up with me, and occasionally he will actually ask, and I try to be pleasant but mysterious without being dishonest.

This week I had a long chat with a mutual friend of ours (who has her own issues--she is in her second marriage--first on fell apart because her H couldn't keep his pants zipped--but is passionately in love with one of her teachers [she has gone back to school at the age of 45]). She says I'm her closest female friend and my H is her closest male friend, and she's doing a pretty good job of not taking sides, I think. Anyway, she doesn't tell me much about her conversations with my H, which is okay with me, because I don't want to be betrayed to him either, but this time she told me that my H has on several occasions expressed to her that he doesn't understand why I'm not fighting for the marriage and won't talk to him, because surely the situation must bother me. She pointed out to him "what could she possibly say?" Which is pretty much how I feel about it. I explained to her that I don't talk to him about this because I feel pretty sure that anything I say can and will be used against me, and I'm not going to change his thinking anyway, so why waste my breath? Besides which, I really don't think he cares at all about me or about how I feel; I'm just an obstacle to his R with OW and a millstone around his neck, in his mind.

Although it does puzzle me why he still lives at home. What is here for him? He doesn't seem to want anything to do with me, although he's nominally polite. I do have to say that last weekend, following my DB coach's suggestion, I invited him to go biking with me (something we used to do quite a lot before all this mess). He was clearly reluctant, so I told him we didn't have to if he didn't want to. He used one of his favorite excuses of late: "It just seems like that would be pretending everything is normal." Then a bit later he came to me and modified his stance: "We can go biking together if you would be willing to talk to me." I said, "Seems like an odd venue for conversation." He said, "I mean in general, at some point, not so much while we're biking." I politely declined. Something similar happened a few weeks ago too. But as far as I can see, he has not stepped back at all from OW--in fact, he came to tell me goodbye as he was leaving for work yesterday (Thursday), and added that he was going out of town (to OW's state) for a few days, leaving after work that night, so he would probably see me on Sunday. (I just smiled and told him to have a good time, as usual. I should have realized this was coming, because they have been seeing each other about twice a month, and this time it had been almost a month since their last in-person weekend.) So he's with her right now, I assume, and I'm not particularly upset by it--it's sort of par for the course at this point. Not that it doesn't bother me, but it's not at all unusual by now, so I haven't gotten worked up about it. Thank heavens for ADs!)

So anyway, I don't entirely know what to do at this point. I'm furious with him quite a bit more than sad, and have been for months now, even though I don't even usually let myself even feel the anger, much less express it, but I know it's there. I just don't see that my current approach (despite the blessing of my DB coach) is getting me anywhere. As my friend pointed out the other night, what I'm doing is not working; it's time to try something else. And I know this shouldn't be a major factor in my decisions, and it's really not, but I'm *sick* of dealing with his universally chilly attitude towards me, and hearing his voice talking to OW on the phone for hours every day, and his basically rubbing my nose in his A, on a daily basis. I don't even want to be within sight of him these days, much less having to be nice to him and sleeping in the same bed with him when he won't even touch me (what the hey is up with that???). I need a break from him and his alien-ness. If I need to keep doing what I'm doing, I will, but I'm about out of hope, and tired of beating my head against a wall.

I always have more to say, but right now I will stop so I can call about lining up my last prepaid appointment with my DB coach before the office closes. I welcome any comments or suggestions.

Thanks!
Peace,
Dawn

Dawn, It is good that he's being honest with you. The fact that he tells you he's confused shows (to me) that he is still considering (even if remotely) saving your M. You changes have caused him to become confused. He's probably wondering why is he letting this attractive woman go? Maybe this is part of the confusion? Him moving out might be too "final" for him now. It might be a good thing that he's still here. At least he continues to see the wonderful attractive you and it reminds him of what he's missing out on. Maybe he was referring to an R talk about mooving on?

If it was me, I would pray the Hedge of Thorns prayer, and other (personal) prayers for your H, as often each day as possible. Prayer is a powerful weapon to use in our situation. Also, Charlyne recommended playing praise and worship music because praising/worshipping God weakens the Enemy.

PH,
Thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts about my situation. I agree--I've suspected for a while now that he wants to have a R talk about moving on, because I haven't seen any signs that he is moving any closer to me. Although...if he's going to tell me that he wants out, why has he waited for *months* to tell me so, just because I'm not willing to tell him what I feel? I generally emphasize in these little encounters (although not always) that if *he* wants to talk, I will listen. I really don't get it. Except for moving away from me by inches, he seems *glued* to the fence, with no significant moves in either direction. Now he's got ME confused!

He has said in the past (months ago) that he knows that choosing to stay with me will mean more stability and security (oh yeah, that sounds really exciting; I can see why you'd want that!), but...he doesn't know if he has the energy to try again with me, and is really reluctant because of fears about being right back in this same situation two or five or ten years down the road, because he can't trust me not to "relapse" (my word to approximate what he said). And the way he talks about the possibility of staying with me is comparable to the way someone might talk about having to go through chemotherapy. Lovely. And this is despite all the efforts I have made (both before and after the bomb) to be fun and exciting and pleasant to be around.

He did say, about six months ago, that if we didn't have all this negative history behind us, if he were just meeting me for the first time now, that he would be really intrigued by me. My DB coach said that was an excellent sign, but in all the time since then, H hasn't seemed to follow through on that concept at all. I got the "You changed your whole life around in two months, but it's too little too late" speech, including the accusation that I only did it because I was scared of losing my lifestyle. He also volunteered that he has a hard time making major decisions, and he feels overwhelmed by the fact that a decision that will have a major impact on three people's lives is really up to him.

So...there we are. I'm just so fed up with him that I don't even want him around. He talked about how he thinks we'll be happier apart, and it's true that if he's going to be like this to me for the rest of our lives, I would be happier without him. But I still have that tiny thread of hope that he will eventually return from the Mother Ship and become something like the wonderful person I married again. I don't want a divorce. I really don't. I just don't know who this person I'm legally married to is any more, and I'm not sure he's going to become recognizable to me again. I really don't know what to do.

One thing I know now, that I didn't when this all began, is that I can survive without him. In a number of ways, especially financially, it wouldn't be easy, but I could do it. For years, though--up until several months after the bomb, in fact--I truly believed that I couldn't, and I planned that if he ever left me I would kill myself, and I was up-front with him about that. (Hey, no pressure there!) I'm no longer seriously thinking of that, although the thought does pass through my mind occasionally. One of the changes I made when I realized that something was really wrong, a month before the bomb, was to completely stop all mention of suicide unless he specifically asked, and even then to avoid dwelling on it. I thought about it constantly at the time, of course, but I didn't talk to him about it.

So...I'm not sure what to do. Hmmm, how many times have I said that now? I can do just about anything if I know that's what I need to do (I've amazed myself with how consistent I've been about the DBing approach I had settled on!), but I just don't know what I'm actually *supposed* to do. I wish God would just send me a note or leave some writing on the wall for me or something! I do have a call in to make an appointment with my DB coach, so hopefully that will help.

Oh, yes, I wanted to ask--what is the Hedge of Thorns prayer? I'm not familiar with it.

Thanks again for stopping by; I REALLY appreciate it!! I do welcome all words of support and advice!

Peace,
Dawn

Dawn,
Here's the link to the Hedge of Thorns prayer - link .

I think that as you keep praying, reading the Bible and other Biblical-based material, you will draw closer to God and will know when He speaks to you (and know what it is He is saying to you). Have you considered checking out http://www.rejoiceministries.org and subscribing to the Charlyne Cares newsletters?

I think it's wonderful that you are able to survive financially without your H. I think this is important since it will take pressure off him now when he's so vulnerable to pressure and facing difficulty while in MLC.

From what you are saying, it seems to me that your H is confused, and that is a good thing. He doesn't seem ready to leave you. Leverage that as best as you can. The contact allows him to see your changes and gives him and you the chance to see that the changes are permanent.

Hey, Dawn! I came across your post in Breton's thread and noticed we had some similarities (my depression last year and the OW, etc. I like to write as well! Glad to "meet" you, but of course sorry you're here...

I've read your posts and it sounds like your H has noticed your changes, likes what he sees, but is afraid they are just temporary or maybe motivated by the OW, and if he committed to you again or reconciled that you might revert back to depression or whatever stuff that he wasn't happy about? I do think it is best living together to increase your chances of reconciling, and if you keep maintaining the changes you've already made, and maybe add another 180 or 2, whatever you think would be good for you and once your H realizes the changes are permanent, I think you have a great chance of working this out. Karen

Hi, PH and Karen,
Thanks for the info and advice!

PH, I will check out the links you mentioned. As for the finances, right now they aren't good, and I would have to make changes to manage without his income--maybe sell the house, which we've lived in our whole married life--but I think I could manage somehow or other. It would definitely be a nail-biting situation, though. I am doing my best to improve the finances as much as I can, although I won't put any of my income into the joint account, because I'm not willing to have my hard work go to fund his affair.

Yes, my H is very confused. I have a little bit of insight into his MLC mindset from my (married) friend who is in love with her teacher; she is definitely in MLC but will actually talk to me and I don't have to worry that she is lying, unlike discussions with my H. She has some ideas firmly stuck in her head that are *totally* alien-inspired that she canNOT be talked out of, like the "fact" that it is okay for her to leave her marriage for this other man because she dreamed about him when she was a child, and she never felt entirely married to her current H because he wasn't her ideal, but her OM is. She is very religious, and I can't even get through to her via that approach. She just keeps sliding around every objection to her entitlement mindset. (Her OM eventually broke off the romantic element of their relationship and told her it was never going to happen, and got really cold to her, and she's still devastated and won't let go of it, more than a year later. If he hadn't called it quits with her, there would be an even bigger mess than there already is.)

Anyway, I didn't mean to go on and on about my friend, but listening to her warped MLC ideas and seeing how impossible it is to talk her out of them (much as I love her) helps me understand my H a little.

No, H doesn't seem ready to leave me. If he were, I think he would have done it already. He's like an icicle to me, though, and I don't know what he's waiting for (he says he's waiting for "a sign" about what he should do--despite having said back in November that he "didn't know if he believed in God any more" and "even if he did, he wasn't sure he cared what God thought"). I'd say he's waiting on finances to permit his moving out, if it weren't for a comment he made during the "bomb" discussion about how he would rather be broke and happy than better off financially but in a miserable situation (and he was referring to the possibility of moving out when he made that comment, so it's not out of context). I also think he's a little embarrassed about what he's up to and about the state of our marriage, although he may not even realize it himself, and that's part of what keeps him putting on his wedding ring and holds him back from moving out--if he moved out, he would actually have to admit to everyone what's going on, although I'm sure he would figure out a way to blame me.

I know OW is putting at least a little pressure on him to move out--I saw e-mails they had exchanged when H accidentally left his private e-mail open. She was saying things like "It doesn't really make sense to talk about me getting a job in [city where H and I live] or moving there as long as you're living with her" and "I've been fantasizing for months and months about packing up and moving to [city where H and I live] to live with you." H was responding with, "This situation won't last forever," (the implication being, "Just be patient," although he didn't actually say "I'll move out eventually and then we can be together," although that might have been understood if it had already been discussed).

Karen, you're dead on about H's take on my changes and being afraid they are temporary. He keeps talking about how we were in more or less this same place six or seven years ago, and even after MC, IC for both of us, and ADs for me, all for about three years after I found out about his first EA, we're right back where we started; he keeps pointing out that in 6 years, he will be 50, and he doesn't want to be still/back in this same boat at that age. He said to me once, something along the lines of, "Even if I do decide to try to make things work with you again, how do I know you won't kill yourself, or get drowned in depression again?" I REALLY wanted to say, "How do I know you won't cheat on me again?" But I held my tongue.

Think that's enough for now. From what you all are telling me, I'm starting to think maybe it's best not to force him to make a choice right now after all. I still need to finish reading the Dobson book and especially talk with my DB coach. She always gives me hope and clarity.

Thanks to all who have posted, and hope you are doing well!

Peace,
Dawn

I think my H has a similar situation here. He has threatened to leave, but keeps pulling the money card -- "We can't afford it!" Which is partly true, but then there's the other issue: Our daughter. I know he can't bear to leave her. And I do agree that he would be "embarrassed" to leave, as he hasn't really told anyone about our situation, and with the few people he has told, he has laid the blame entirely on me. He still wears his wedding ring too. It's all a farce, in my opinion, but I do think his current online OW is such a fantasy right now with him that he can't get out of it... I don't think he's dealt with the "reality" of what it would be like to leave his family and be with her (she lives across the country) and he hasn't accepted that at all, in my opinion.

But my H won't even entertain R talk and thinks I'm completely the messed up one. He doesn't even admit that he has any problems at all, because he shows no emotion to me except anger when I have a backslide. It's like he wants me to be cheery and happy and hold it all together so he can feel better about his poor choices. I'm positive that's he's thinking things like "Oh look, she's fine! I can handle this!"

Hang in there Dawn. Call your DB coach and give yourself a boost. I can't see my IC for another week and a half and I'm falling apart because I found dozens of chat transcripts of my H having cybersex and saying "I Love You" to the OW. I can't snoop anymore; it's too damaging to me personally. So I'm not going to do it. Although now my imagination is running wild.

LHF,
I hear ya--I've been there too. Although in my case what I found was pictures (screen shots) of cybersex w/OW on Second Life, and e-mails/text messages with ILY between the two of them, and intimate details of RL sex between them in the flesh. Oh, yeah, and erotic videos H made of himself that he has certainly never showed *me*. Only time I've seen him naked since the bomb--and the first time I've ever seen him masturbate.

It hurts so much that you just want to scream or cry or be violent all the time, and yet for DB purposes you have to smile and be pleasant to the [expletive deleted]. You KNOW you shouldn't snoop, that it's bad all arond, but you're driven by the *NEED to know the truth* since expecting him to tell you the truth about it would be a complete fantasy. It's soooo hard to get yourself to stop snooping, and you'll do okay for a while and then give in to temptation again. I think I finally have myself stopped, but it took about six months and a complete change of attitude. I no longer snoop for three reasons:
-- I know how bad it is for me and my mental and emotional well-being, and for the relationship (what little there is of it), especially if he catches me (as he did with his e-mail that he left open by accident a month ago);
-- The stuff I've already found has been so bad that there's not much potential for anything worse;
-- This goes along with the previous reason--In a certain respect, I don't really care what he does any more. My worst nightmares have already come true (for the most part)--I know he's having sex with, and thinks he's in love with, another woman. I can only think of a few things that would be worse, and none of them would be that *much* worse at this point. So I'm somewhat numb to his antics now. My emotions are just worn out with respect to him. Things that nearly sent me over the edge at the beginning now get maybe a sigh from me (and I'm not talking about the reactions that I present to him; I mean what I really feel). Unfortunately, one can get used to anything. And I'm now used to the alien living in my house.

So don't beat yourself up for snooping. It's normal. It will definitely be better all around if you stop, but it may take a while for you to fully internalize that and resist the temptation.

Can you arrange to see your IC early? I know mine has said that she is available in emergencies, and it sounds like this qualifies for you. I know that every time I would find some new horror (which sometimes happened by accident, not through snooping), I would feel so upset that I wanted to jump out of my skin. I woke up a few friends in the middle of the night (with their okay beforehand) to cry on their shoulders during these periods.

I would definitely not encourage R talk if I were in your situation (which I more or less am anyway, although my H keeps indicating interest in discussions periodically, and I decline). I get either minimal politeness or anger from H--those are the only settings on his emotional dial these days, at least with me--I know he goes beyond that with other people.

I don't do a lot of backsliding, but if I do, I always know about it immediately by his anger, and even then I sometimes can't figure out what happened to upset him--I don't think it's always me. He has a very short temper in general these days. I'm generally like Teflon with him--whatever he does or says, I let it slide off of me and don't react to him with anything other than calm and courtesy. I don't let anything he does rile me or stick to me, at least in my interactions with him. He has admitted to no guilt, no remorse, and no concern for me since all this began. The closest he has come is to tell me how confused he is. He seems to blame me for everything in his life that is not perfect and has said things like "I don't know if I can forgive you for what you've put me through." To which I want to say, "Shouldn't I be saying that to YOU??!"

It seems like MLCers just completely have their heads in the sand (or stuck elsewhere ), and there's nobody home to talk to, or if there is, he's like Uncle Scrooge on downers. It's good that your H is attached to your D--maybe that will help keep him there until the little green men return his brain.

I must take a shower and get dressed and get some small portion of my piles of work started, but I send you lots of hugs and strength in your situation. It's rough all over, no question about it, and it seems to go on forever, but at least we all have each other here on the board for support and advice. Someone I know who went through this with her first H many years ago said that when she drove up to her house, she would say to herself, "This is fantasy now," and when she drove away, she would say to herself, "Now I'm getting back into reality." I do try to remind myself that he is in la-la land and if he is making sense on occasion, that's gravy.

Take care of yourself, and stay in touch. Strength and courage, LHF!

Peace,
Dawn

Ok, Dawn, how sick is this: I think my H has "married" is SL OW... I found some evidence to support that and thought... what the ????? That is just so screwed up. So sad. So freakin' weird.

Who is this man? I truly think he's in so deep he can't get his brain out of it. It's so, so, so, so messed up...

And the other thing I think it's gone on for longer than I suspected, possibly. Here's my current timeline... In about April, he started spending time online and I was upset about it but he kept saying it was nothing, nothing nothing.

On June 5, I found the weird e-mail account and e-mails to the first OW where he professed love and I realize he was going to meet her, so I confronted him and he dropped the "separation" bomb and pointed out all the issues he has with me.

On July 1 -- last phone call to first OW from his cell.

Probably the week after that, he gets involved with current OW. Now it's July 21 and he's "married" her or something to that effect, and they're soulmates even though they never met face to face???? And I think he's only seen one photo of "half" of her face?

Anyway -- in my past snooping this weekend, I found an e-mail from ANOTHER woman, apparently from before the first OW that said he's a jerk and she can't believe what a jerk he is and she feels sorry for me and our D -- she even mentioned us by name. I was creeped out that this stranger knows about me and my D but I was kind of happy to see someone say that to him because apparently he's being a jerk in SL as well and probably will get run out of there... Of course, who knows when that will happen. But I read in his "chatting" that the current OW also thinks people in SL are mean and "use people" and so does he so they will probably run off together to escape SL too... Little does she know he's a user too, apparently...

So messed up, so messed up... My husband was always the most caring, thoughtful man to me, so this is all so beyond surreal...

But it's like the more he's messed up, the better I feel because I know that although WE had/have some issues as a couple that I didn't pick up on and he didn't share, this is way, way, way more about him. And that makes me feel like I'M NOT CRAZY! He is, totally, nuts!

And since he seems to be blowing through OW online at a rapid rate, I know this new "wife" won't likely last very long. And if she does, he's in for trouble because she strikes me as needy and having major issues. Have fun, H!

And I can't see my IC early -- she's on vacation, so I have to just suck it up. I considered even calling a DB coach, but I don't want to fork over the dough because my IC is covered by insurance and only costs $20 per session. So I'm trying to wait.

This is going to sound like an excuse, but I totally have a backslide when I have PMS -- both times I had a major one it was PMS time. Of course, our scheduled vacation is during PMS time, so I'm kind of worried about it, but I need to try and get stronger between now and then. I have three weeks...

LHF,
I'll have to make this short (AAAAGH! Brief message, no can do!!). I will undoubtedly have more to say about it later, but...sounds to me like your H can't settle on what he wants, so that may be better for you (my H has been fixated on the same OW for a year now, and is having sex with her in RL, not just SL). Hopefully your H will eventually get his head together and realize that you have been the rock through all of his antics.

I know how hard it is, but do your very best to STOP SNOOPING. It will only hurt you and possibly your R directly, especially if he finds out. I know for me it took awhile, because I knew intellectually what a bad idea it was, but kept giving in to temptation. If it helps, think of it like stabbing yourself, because that's basically what happens emotionally when you snoop. Even if you don't find anything new that's incriminating, you still feel sick, and like it's just a matter of time before the other shoe drops. You don't really expect to find anything that will make you feel GOOD, do you??! Let it go. He's going to make a huge mess; don't bother trying to clean it up as he goes. Do what you have to to protect yourself (like from STDs if you think he might be having a PA), but otherwise, leave it alone and don't try to discover what fresh horror he's perpetuating now. You will probably have enough to deal with that comes to your attention without your searching for it. I know, it's hard. But it will probably get worse before it gets better, and you don't need to make things worse than they will be without your snooping.

I can tell you that things that I found out about about my H six or eight months ago, which were excruciatingly painful for me at the time, hardly even register with me now because what he's doing now is so much worse. I'd love it now if my biggest problem was what H was up to in SL. Now it's RL. Believe me, I don't mean to minimize the pain you are feeling now. It's absolutely horrible. But it is in your best interests to BE THE BETTER PERSON and not stoop to his level of lying, cheating and sneaking around, and that includes snooping. Be Teflon--don't let his mud stick to you!

I don't know what to tell you about the PMS, because I don't seem to be affected that way myself, and I am fortunate enough to have very good control of my tongue and my actions around him. All I can suggest is to practice walking away/distracting yourself THE MOMENT you find yourself slipping into something you know you shouldn't do. Walk away if you can, take a couple of deep breaths, and ask yourself, "Is this going to get me closer to my goals or not?" Call a friend or get on this board and vent. The key, I think, is to catch yourself in that moment of choice, and remember what you *really* want. (Thanks to Stephen Covey for that concept.)


Yep, I'm with you there. The more "out there" he gets, the better I feel about myself, because I start to realize that a lot of his issues with me are the product of his alien brain, and there's not actually anything THAT bad about me!

I hope that helps!

Peace,
Dawn