Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums THE SEX-STARVED MARRIAGE DQ's Sex Blog

DQ, you probably thought you were being perfectly clear, but no, I did not get the point that I'm supposed to be talking her into doing a striptease for her. Reread your posts and ask yourself whether you honestly said that, or whether you expected all these DAM to read between the lines and just get it.

Did you say it or did you imply it?

If I could read a woman saying "Take an occasion when you get guaranteed sex as a gift and start there. Then do the following steps so she'll give you the striptease you want so much" and translate it to "Nurture your woman by maneuvering her into giving you a striptease, because no means yes and she actually wants to do it even if she says she doesn't" then I wouldn't be here.

Again, not to make excuses, but I was raised on "no means no." If you're going to try to teach me that "no means yes" then you're going to have to be patient.

Silly - my posts made it perfectly clear that when a woman strips for her man, it is a highly erotic experience for her - and when she feels that rush of sexual power, it tends to make her HORNY. I said this in several different ways. And making her feel that powerful, thus HORNY, is the point. And if she feels that powerful and thus HORNY...do you not see that you might be the lucky beneficiary of her horniness????

But Silly, to be honest with you, I am tired of bantering with you. If you don't see any merit to my advice, just ignore it.

You seem to have a combative and contrary attitude, and I just don't really want to "go there" with you any more.

And BTW, this combative attitude is a huge turn off to women, so maybe you could check into that a little bit for your wife's sake?

Much love to you Silly, but I'm not going to try getting any points across to you anymore. If you don't like what I say, feel free to not discuss it with me.

Stigmata - being that I suspect you were just "drive-by" posting and not actually joining in to any discussion, I will just say, thanks for your comments, and leave it at that. If you really do want to join in, come back and let me know.

Cinco - thank you sweetie. I guess I do know I am one of a kind, but its nice to hear it once in a while, too. :0)

And Baggy - thank you as well (for the defense of my other post to Stigmata, and for everything else you are adding to this forum).

DQ

Stigmata,

You don't appear to have read any of DQ's previous posts ... Nuff said about that already.

However, ignoring the comments about DQ, there were a couple of points I wanted to respond to:

(1) "LTRs/Ms always seem to balance dangerously on this precarious feelings-driven razor's edge. why over 70% of Ds are filed by Ws probably IMO ... we males, for the most part, aren't driven by feelings ... our word and our loyalty is our bond -- at least in the mature ones ... the alpha kings/not immature princes who can't seem to control their penile turgidity."

You may well be right. But if a marriage is to have an erotic, charged sexual element (as opposed to crap/duty/pity/no sex) there has to be some kind of feelings-driven "edge" - doesn't there? Perhaps the reason why over 70% of divorces are filed by wives is that so damn many men treat their marriages as a comfort zone or worse, premature retirement home/graveyard?

(2) "IMO a lot of the problems I've seen over the years on SSM spring from OP who give his/her power away to the external "needs" instead of pulling it all in and making decisions from an internal locus of control/frame of reference ... ie, sex is a part of me ... sex does not define my greater level of happiness."

IMO there's a lot to be said for this, for men particularly, but once you have it all "within you" and are thinking and acting from that strong inner self ... that still leaves how the spouse is/wants to be, and the relationship itself. He/she has their own responsibility and sometimes sadly - for their own particular reasons - they cannot face or own it. That's why some SSMs survive ... no scrub that (who'd want a SSM to "survive"?!?) ... metamorphosise into proper loving relationships, and some end instead.

(3) "A great LTR/M is a wheel with equal spokes: Sex, Companionship, Friendship, Finances, Children, Shared Dreams"

That's definitely one way to describe it.

(4) "I don't believe the frequency of sexual contact should trump all other spokes."

Neither do I, and I would urge any man in a SSM - no matter how depressed and despondent - not to neglect the other spokes, as this will only worsen the problem exponentially. But the Sex spoke is still a spoke, and if that is neglected or missing, then sooner or later the wheel will come off altogether.

(5) "It all boils down to the center of the wheel. And what might that be? Commitment to your lover for the long haul. No matter what life throws at you."

I just can't agree. The wagon is the marriage, and commitment is the journey i.e. the long haul. But if its going to be a fulfilling and enjoyable journey the wagon has to be properly maintained in its own right. If its a bad marriage, its a bad marriage period, no matter how long its lasted, or how long the spouses hope it will continue. And if the couple want their marriage to make the long haul, they have to regularly service all the moving parts. If there is a centre to the wheel, its mutual attraction - once that dies the wheels definitely come off. But I don't define "attraction" in some kind of superficial way. Attraction is about maintaining through will and hard work the attractive personal qualities that brought the couple together in the first place - that includes the sensual and physical aspects (these can be maintained and even improved with effort) as well as the emotional, intellectual and spiritual characteristics.

I for one am firmly convinced that it is that dynamic and nothing else that lies at the centre of a healthy and sexual marriage. "No matter what" commitment sounds great in theory ... but IMO in practice breeds all kinds of entitlement, disrespect and frankly laziness in both men and women. Like I said, there needs to be that "edge" to a marriage to keep both spouses honest with themselves and each other.

S&A

DQ,

Many thanks for being so open about yourself on this thread. I really do appreciate the insights you have given "us men"!

The project of reclaiming my masculinity over the last couple of years (and counting) has been the turning-point of my whole life, and has changed me in many very profound and beneficial ways. In particular, I have learned who I am cannot depend on the approval of any woman or anyone.

However, I have now reached a stage in my journey where I also recognise the danger of taking this project too far. That it is not all about me and being a strong and (fiercely) independent male, and that I need to work on other aspects of my life as well, or I could end up becoming too hard and austere. Your remark to Silly about being "combative" was a timely reminder for me as well. I think that this can wear a woman down - right? She wants to be the victory celebration, not another part of the battle?

I also thought that what you said about the importance of kissing for a woman was invaluable - something I had never fully appreciated before. I am really looking forward to putting these and other insights of yours into practice in my own marriage.

Anyway, I wanted to ask you a couple of things following on from your story.

Did you definitely regard yourself as LD in your previous marriage? When if at all, did you become HD and what was the catalyst? Or, do you not think it came down to LD/HD ultimately for you?

Another thing. You didn't really surprise me about being bisexual. I personally don't find it shocking. To my mind sexuality is a spectrum with all kinds of variations and shades in between the extremes of male-only and female-only attraction. And I think that many women and men have some kind of variation within them. But can I ask - is there any specific way your husband accommodates your attraction to women, other than him being aware and accepting of it? In other words, what if anything can straight men do for bisexual woman?

DQ - thanks again.

S&A

Hi S&A, thanks for stopping by.

Regarding myself during my previous marriage and being LD...I believed at that time that "sex wasn't that important to me". But I now know that this was just a lie I told myself so that I wouldn't have to deal with the extreme disappointments I was having in my marriage. Does that make sense? I know now that I could not feel any arousal for my ex-h because of the many issues between us which we never addressed. But at the time, I just thought that I had no arousal. Then I would be surprised by myself when I would feel arousal for someone else. But then I would just figure it was a fluke and that the reality was that I was LD, because the arousal never stuck around when I turned my attention back to my ex-h.

I was so wrong about myself...I had no clue that a relationship with many deep-rooted issues, such as my marriage, can and could and does kill your attraction for your partner and your arousal in general. What I thought was that arousal just happened to you, it was a function of your body, so if you weren't feeling it, it had only to do with your own body - not your circumstances. NAIVE was I? Just a bit. LOL!

But I did have one gauge that kept me at least open to the idea that maybe I wasn't a lost cause...and that was that I have always had extremely wild and amazing sexual dreams, including ones with full on orgasms. I have had these dreams since I was a child, and during my sexless marriage I still had them every so often. So after having one of those dreams I would once in a while think "hmm....there must be something extremely sexual inside of me trying to make itself known, or I would have these dreams". Unfortunately, nothing in my waking life matched those dreams even in the tiniest degree, so I would go back to thinking it must be a fluke (the dreams) and I must be LD because my body does not "get horny" or tell me it is time to have sex.

Had I read SSM, my whole life and probably marriage would have changed in an instant.

The moment I realized I was actually HD (could have sex every day even) was when I met my fiance. Well not actually when we met, but after we got into the groove together and were dating exclusively and we worked into our own great sex life together. But see, now I understand that it is all about being fulfilled in general, as a person and within your relationship. Being fulfilled makes me horny! Wow, what a concept!

If I were single again, I think I would be ok without sex for a while....so I am not sure what that says about HD or LD, you know? It is only within my relationship that I feel so HD.

I did have one other long term relationship with a woman, where I was HD for a while - - and then over time as the relationship had trouble, I became LD. So for me at least, it seems to depend upon the health of a relationship.

So to the other question...yes, I agree that basically no one is 100% straight or gay, we all fall somewhere in the middle...but this is a dangerous thing to say out loud to people who may be very insulted at the idea that they are not 100% straight (trust me, I have had that convo so many times, I finally learned not to freak people out with a new idea like that - LOL!)

But as for ways my fiance accomodates my bi-sexuality...well, I will just answer for myself and other bi-sexual people may have a totally different experience with it but here goes...

I seem to be able to fully separate my enjoyment between being with a male partner or a female partner. So that, when I am with one gender sexually, I do not feel any "loss" by not being with the other gender sexually. I am fully monogamous with my male fiance at this time in my life and for the past 4 years, and I do not feel deprived for the fact that I cannot and will not have sex with a woman - - ever again in my life, even.

Its like, when I am so in love like I am now, the fulfillment from that love makes it "ok" with me to not be free to have other sexual experiences with the opposite sex. I do also think that had I found that my dream partner was a woman, which could have been the case, I would be perfectly content with her sexually and wouldn't need to be sexually with a man.

Therefore, my fiance does not really accomodate my bi-sexuality in some particular way. He sometimes thinks maybe he should or something, but it is not necessary. Actually, the best thing he does for me right now (and this will likely sound kinda weird) but what he does for me to "accomodate" me, is for him to NOT get freaked out if I enjoy seeing naked women (ie: porn or other images). In the beginning of our relationship it made him squirm a little if I appeared to enjoy seeing naked women, so I kinda just downplayed it entirely out of respect for him. But now, he finally just allows me that pleasure without taking it personally.

Remember he has issues with some bi women from his past so he is a bit weirder about that the other people would be. But he has finally overcome it for the most part. The reason he has overcome it is because I handle myself with consistency and integrity and I make sure he knows that he is all I want and that I am happy.

But I will say this....those dreams I mentioned above. I still have them. And when I am with one gender sexually in a long term relationship, my sex dreams tend to be more intense about the other gender. So in my current relationship, my sexual dreams seem to "make up for" my lack of a female sex partner, and most of the dreams are about myself and a woman. The same was true when I was in an LTR with a woman - - my dreams tended to be more about men. So it would seem that my mind takes care of the parts of itself that are not getting fed in my waking life.

S&A - I appreciate all your thoughts and comments. I think I have tried to go and see if you have your own thread somewhere and you don't? If you do start one though, I will be quick to join in. I am wondering what your story is and such. Maybe it is here somewhere and I just missed it. But regardless, thanks again for stopping by.

DQ

DQ,

Many thanks for the reply. Very interesting thoughts as ever!

Regarding my own situation, I am going to start a thread very shortly. Until now I have been more concerned with pushing others in the right direction – or at least trying to!

But I am now at a stage in my life (I can honestly say a new and exciting one) where I think input from the women on this board will definitely help.

What the hell. I’ll give you some details right now. Compared to other posters, I’m probably going to be pretty sparse. As far as I am aware my wife does not know I post here and at this stage I see no need or reason to tell her. But in future I may do, or she may find out. She is a very private person, particularly about these issues. Therefore out of love and respect for her I will keep the details minimal. On the other hand, if it had not been for the knowledge I have gained on this board, we would in all probability be divorced by now, whereas instead our marriage really is pretty good. Not perfect mind, but better than it’s been for years. So there is a balance to strike here, and I feel justified in telling a little about my situation, in order to carry on the good work.

Me – early 30s. My wife – very intelligent and beautiful, early 40s. Together over 10 years. Married over 9 years. First child born 6 years ago. I worked (long hours), my wife stayed at home. First 6 months after birth not so bad (I thought). After that, very difficult – me struggling with very demanding and stressful work, my wife struggling at home, little quality time or connection. Pretty much no ML during the first year.
Just into the second year, my wife tells me she can’t cope with such long hours by me. She is clearly at her wit’s end. I immediately get help about workaholism. I still do the same work, but cut back hours a lot, and spend much more time at home. If anything I overcompensate (nice guy) as I am now definitely missing ML. I raise the ML issue around the 18 month mark. There are some improvements but they don’t last. We are also doing a lot of work to our house.

Another bumpy year passes, during which I no doubt make every SSM and nice guy mistake in the books. My frustration is growing. That turns to anger, which in turn turns to mild depression.

During the third year after birth, there are more ups and downs, lots of rows, tears, dark nights of the soul, my work suffers, and financial problems start looming like storm clouds. I manage to hold myself together for the outside world – just. But I have fallen into victim mode whereby everything would be better if only we ML often (but I already knew deep down there was much more to our problems). Then halfway through the third year kind of a breakthrough – I chance upon a copy of one of john gray’s mars and venus books. It gets me thinking. I make some changes. I also find SSM and this BB. But there is no lasting response from my wife, and I feel full of resentment and anger.

Around the beginning of the fourth year I’m very much depressed and the whole world seems grey. I at least recognise the (logical) absurdity of this, but can’t seem to shake it off. Everything – absolutely everything – seems pointless without sex (I know). Its becoming clear to me that my depression and this SSM cannot go on. More rows and tears. Urgings and ultimatums. At this point my wife seems to at last “get it” to a point, and agrees that ML has to be a part of our marriage. But by now this doesn’t seem nearly enough. I am also feeling very “entitled”, especially having been the breadwinner for all these sex starved years. I am thinking about sex far more than is healthy and even thinking of doing it with other women. I have by now convinced myself that sex is the cure for all my problems, whereas the reality is that it has become an excuse for letting myself go far more than I ever should have. That includes my work – there are serious financial problems, which halfway through the fourth year threaten to overwhelm us.

How this story would have ended I really don’t know. Maybe my instinct for self-preservation would have taken over. I knew on some level I could not simply crumple up and let life swallow me whole. What I do know is that at that time I was in dire need of guidance and a different perspective. My good fortune was to at last buy a copy of the way of the superior man, which had been referred to quite a bit on this BB. His ideas rang a lot of bells and more importantly gave me the new perspective (and kick up the backside!) I sorely needed. I very seriously resolved to do my level best to be the superior man and to never give up trying. I started doing all the things I now advise other men to do. Improvements started to take place really very quickly I think. There have definitely been ups and downs along the way since – shaky days, patches of depression and moodiness – but the overall direction has still been up. I have truly learned the importance of the mind and the will in shaping thoughts, actions, life and relationships. It has been the most rewarding period of my life.

My career dramatically improved, our financial problems lessened (everyone has financial problems of some kind!), our marriage and interactions got a lot better. To give my wife very great credit, she was still with me despite the very difficult times we had gone through. We were still ML at times and so I had at least something to work with. That aspect of our marriage improved as well.

The journey continued. Into the fifth year after birth I came across no more mr nice guy – and I started to learn even more – how a lot of the problems had started in the first place, and had then spun almost out of control. So that gave me a new dimension and strengthened the resolve I already had.

The journey still continues… Its now just over six years since the birth of my first child. And I was confident enough about myself and our marriage to have a second child with my wife – born earlier this year! Perhaps unsurprisingly, we have only ML twice in the last year. That’s cool. As I’ve said, the last two years have been a very important time for me, and I’ve never felt stronger or more alive than I do right now – hence the screenname!

The way I see it, with all I have learned, I now have an amazing opportunity of taking my wife and I forward (slowly and sensitively of course) into this next phase in our marriage, post-second child. I am looking forward to supporting her in her role as a mother, but also building a new kind of loving and sensual relationship with her. In other words trying to do what I pretty much failed through my ignorance to do the first time!

So your recent posts DQ (and Bagheera as well), have been very timely and inspiring for me. Please feel free to add your thoughts. I will probably post more later.

All the best,

S&A

You are doing great from the sounds of things, S&A. I do understand what a long road to recovery it is. Sounds like you are more than halfway there.

You and Baggy are the poster boys for guys who GET IT. And by that I mean, (please - no one else can take offense to this, ok?) but what I mean is, there is nothing attractive about a man who thinks that his lack of sex in his marriage is the *reason* he is becoming less of a man. By GETTING IT, you have realized that by being MORE of a man, you will become more attractive in general, and spefically to your wives.

I'll be happy to read more if you make your own post or here!

DQ

Excellent point!


Thast right!





Awesome!

People are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to close minded anyway... Naked Women are beautiful as is a Naked Man....

When Madonna first put out her "SEX" book.
My favorite picture was the one of her holding something and her hanging above Water ( no clothes on!).. it was just nice to look at... She had an amazing body.
I had it on my dresser when I divorced my 1st husband.
My boys who were 4 and 6 at the time would look at it and walk by like nothing.

They are now 17 and 19.... and have very healthy views on sex and Women and nudity...
I have always made a point to talk to my kids openly about sex. Nothing is a taboo subject....

Keep being you DQ~ you are one of a kind.
We all are really!
..... just most aren't as honest as you.
All my best to you and God bless...
Ali


PS.. S&A start your thread soon.. The more the merrier!

No offense taken but I've got to speak up for all us less than perfect poster boys. When the sex goes away in your marriage you feel like the rug has been pulled out from under you. At a time in your life when you have married and are ready to settle down and start to grow and become more of a man, you find yourself flat on your back wondering "what in the hell happened?" You feel like, "why is this happening to me, I'm the same person I've always been, why does she not love me anymore?"

I'm not making any excuses here but honestly it is very disorienting and you don't know what to do. You thought you had secured your lover for life and no longer have to concentrate on getting sex. Instead your whole focus is now on sex because it is all you can think about anymore. Like S&A says every other part of your life then suffers. For the very weak it causes their marriage to implode. Add in just the daily grind of working and stuff and who has time to figure it out on their own. It is very hard thing to do to take a good look at yourself when your life seems to be falling apart around you.

Cinco

But Cinco...sweetie, you are on the VERGE of GETTING IT. Everyone has to start somewhere...you are starting that inward journey where you will find the answers for yourself. I do understand everything you are saying, I really do.

And I also should have said in that paragraph you quoted, that there is nothing attractive about a woman who ignores her own sexual spirit and becomes a sexless person, too. Maybe her body is still attractive, as women's bodies tend to be visually attractive in general, but when she lets her sexual spirit go dormant, she becomes unattractive. (And that usually coincides with wearing birkenstocks). I really do understand that sexless marriages are not the fault or problem of just one spouse...both spouses created that problem and both spouses have their role in it.

I also get (now) that when you are HD and you've gone without sex for a while it really gets into your head and makes a big problem (the constant rejection on top of the sexual frustration). And that is why the HD partner is in general, suffering a lot more than the LD partner....but the LD partner is suffering, too. He or she just doesn't want to face it in full so they create a wall around the problem and don't look at it.

So Cinco...if you keep on the path you are currently on, keep studying, keep praying, keep meditating...and you are going to break out of this SSM and find your way to a new marriage. I promise.

And for what it is worth, I will speak to you from your wife, because if she could be in touch with herself in a true and honest way, she would say this: "I am so sorry for my part in letting our marriage get to this point." One day, she will say that for real, and when that day comes, you will see also entirely your part in it and you will forgive her immediately.

Trust me! It may not seem possible today or even a year from now, but if you don't give up, it WILL HAPPEN.

DQ