I can totally see how the pieces would have been hard to put together at the time, especially when adding in your tendancy to be a Nice Guy.
A word about the Nice Guy...
We like him, too. He can be a turn on, too. Similar to how a man (typically) wants a lady in the street and a tiger in the bedroom, we sometimes just want a Nice Guy in the street and a Bad Boy between the sheets. I have a girlfriend who is married to what on the outside looks very much like a Nice Guy, even a little bit too whipped, as he adores her just a tiny bit too much (like a puppy). But in the bedroom, he is apparently a total freak and she is one too, so they have this great balance.
I just wanted to say that because, the Nice Guy isn't always a 100% turn off. Its just how he handles himself in other areas of his life that makes the difference.
Not saying that is you or not you. Just a point.
I definitely see what you are saying about the women who end up with Bad Boys and how they end up in the infidelity forum or in the walk-away. Yes, true Bad Boys seem to have a wandering lust that can't really be pinned down. But...one observation I have made on this subject is that a lot of Bad Boys do grow out of it, and if they haven't damaged their own hearts by too many bad relationships, then when they grow out of it they are actually not the heartbreakers they used to be. I think that lifestyle eventually makes them older than their years and then they finally want to settle down.
Those are just ramblings...not necessarily about your or my sitch.
As for my comment about mocking the romance novel guys...well, mocking may not be the right word, but if you will consider how many women will normally "mock" porn and porn-looking girls, I would bet most men similarly "mock" romance novels and the men on the cover. What is really happening is that we are all instinctively jealous of these other fantasy people, and to mock them is the only way we can try to one-up them by claiming that its "stupid" to wish for something that doesn't exist.
I see this all over the place - back and forth - and I know I brought up porn on your thread earlier. I'm not saying you necessarily mocked those guys, but I bet most men would and do the same way most women mock porn.
(I don't mock either one...my position on that subject is somewhat different...)
But back to my point....here's the bottom line....now that you will act more and more like those romance novel guys, I bet your wife will act more and more like a porn star for YOU and you will even get to ask her for a few special favors soon. In other words, right now you are learning how to really be the man she wants you to be and which will turn her on endlessly. Once the genie comes out of her bottle, she's going to start turning to you and saying "gee, what little fantasy girl can I be for YOU tonight". This is what happens when a woman is fulfilled on all levels.
....here's the bottom line....now that you will act more and more like those romance novel guys, I bet your wife will act more and more like a porn star for YOU and you will even get to ask her for a few special favors soon.
It's already begun to unfold this way, even in the short amount of time involved since we made this shift. And....I'll simply say that the benefits in the bedroom have been surprising, and most enjoyable. Ask? I just need to command or do, and she's right there with me. The freedom has been marvelous, and admittedly, a bit scary too. It's all new territory for the both of us.
You're recommended book came yesterday, so I'll be gleaning it for new ideas! We have another, say, 20 years of exploration to fill.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
The Guide to Getting it On book? You got that one?
Lucky you!
I love that book so much. Have fun. We poured over our copy for over a year, almost every night. We finally put it away for a while, but now I'm gonna bring it out again. The illustrations are just so beautiful.
:0)
And wait...20 years? Probably at least 30 wouldn't you say?
I had to jump in with a comment about mocking the romance novel guys/porn stars. My wife does a little of that mockery, it's neither of those things but related in a way. Whenever one of those Viagra commercials comes on the air, she will mock the couples holding hands or making eyes at each other. It's like she's disgusted at the idea of a mature couple continuing to have a romantic intimate relationship together.
I've never said this to her but when they come on I'm thinking, "Wow I wish that's how our relationship was." We are getting there I think and maybe she will view those ads differently in the future.
We've talked so far about the fact that my wife, who is a strong, assertive woman, needs me to be a stronger, dominant man in order to spark her sexual interest and keep her happy within our marriage. This is her 'sexual archetype,' what she responds to best, and you can just about rip him right out of one of her romance novels. To the man that can conquer her (and only him), my wife is a submissive, by nature.
But what about me? What is my 'sexual archetype' and how well does she match it?
This is an area of potential sexual mismatch not covered in The Sex-Starved Marriage, but it should be an area covered by any smart sex therapist that you go to. Because it's not in the SSM, I thought I would share our own case a bit more, and hopefully encourage some folks to seek therapy who've been balking at the idea.
Sexual archetypes are our way of counteracting pathogenic beliefs acquired during childhood and adolescence (see Michael Bader's book on Arousal for more). We all have them, some more severe than others. My own parents had a very sex-starved marriage (yes, history repeats itself), where my small, slender mother rarely desired or enjoyed sex, and as I learned later, was generally non-orgasmic and didn't masturbate. From her I formed the pathogenic believe that Nice Girls Don't desire or enjoy sex. Additionally, my mother was terrified of teen-aged male sexuality and masturbation, and I would get a stern lecture before every date and an interrogation after I came home. So I also came to believe that Nice Boys Don't force themselves on Nice Girls, either. These are the two pathogenic beliefs that I must overcome in order to enjoy sex even today, and sexual archetypes and fantasies help us to do that.
So what is my sexual archetype, my 'fantasy girl'? In essence, she is female sexuality bustin'-out-at-the-seams, both literally and figuratively. Body-wise, she is curvaceous in an exaggerated hourglass, Dolly Parton fashion: T&A to the max. Attitude-wise, she is joyous and exuberant in her enjoyment of sex, completely uninhibited and unashamed. In a very real sense, she is the Anti-Mom. In my fantasies, I am neither strongly dominant nor submissive: my dream girl gives and takes with equal enthusiasm. In those fantasies I do tend to take a little more than I give, so that I am, in essence, a SWITCH with dominant leanings.
So what does our sex therapist see when he tries to match us up as a couple?
Physically, we aren't a bad match, although we've each compromised a little. My wife is most attracted to big, muscular guys, whereas I'm only 5'8" tall and 160 lbs ('fit,' not buffed). However, I do have a natural intensity and 'military bearing' that intimidates people, especially women -- so the necessary masculine presence is there, regardless of size. I'm actually the shortest man my wife ever dated seriously, but since she's only 5'0", we still have a nice height differential and her head snuggles neatly into my chest when we embrace. Ironically, my wife is the shortest woman that I ever seriously dated, since I'm most attracted to women close to my height -- equals, physically and mentally. My wife is, however, nicely curvaceous, and even when she gains weight, it tends to go to her curves -- all the better, from my perspective. So neither of us exactly fits the other's archetype, but we are still physically attracted to each other.
The bedroom, however, is where the problems occurred. From my wife's perspective I was never dominant enough (Nice Boys Don't, remember?), too egalitarian, too gentle and attentive to her. My lack of dominance and sexual ruthlessness turned her off. From my perspective, my wife's quiet, passive, submissive nature was completely the opposite from the enthusiasm and exuberance that I needed to become turned on. So I got the strong (but wrong) message that I wasn't able to turn her on, which I needed in order to turn me on. Mind you, it wasn't always terrible: when I would take charge enough and reveal enough of my own selfish passion for her, she would respond and show her enthusiasm for me, and we could have a good time. But our 'default' modes were each a turn-off to the other. The result: years of lukewarm sex and an eventually sex-starved marriage.
So how do you fix it?
You look for the areas of overlap, and introduce some behavior modifications. Nothing too drastic, because even after therapy, people tend to stay within arms reach of their natural sexual archetype. In other words, we would fail completely if we asked my wife to do a full 180 and go from being a sexual submissive to a dominatrix -- she wouldn't feel happy or fulfilled in that role. But there is some wiggle room here:
* My goal is to move from being a slightly-dominant switch, to being a fully dominant male, both in and out of the bedroom, taking advantage of my masculine nature and giving it more free rein. Nice Boys Do, after all...
* Her goal is to move from being a pure (quiet) submissive, to being a more moderate submissive, capable of displaying feminine enthusiasm and enjoyment in what we are doing. Nice Girls Do, after all...
Thus, we each work to become more like the other's sexual archetype, and meet in the overlap area between them. In our case, I feel like I have the most room for change, so I don't mind taking the biggest steps. But it takes time and practice. If, for example, I strongly dominate my wife in the bedroom and she reverts to quiet, passive mode, it's very easy for me to assume that I've made a wrong move, that she's not enjoying it (even though she actually might be). So we occasionally get our signals crossed, and call that particular encounter a bust. However, it is most enjoyable when it all works, and we're starting to have the best sex of our lives now.
Small steps, Ellie, small steps.
Bagheera
Last edited by Bagheera; 07/11/0804:42 PM.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
I just want to encourage you and tell you that you're doing great. I also suspect your W will be a lot more of what you would/will like from now on, and it will even come naturally to her after a while. Eventually it will not feel strained at all.
Your improvements will probably happen exponentially from here forward, to where a year from now, you will be surprising YOURSELF to find that you had depths of sexuality you didn't even realize. Your archetype is not as necessary later in the game and it can and will shift...regardless of the fact that you have been building it all your life up to this point. It is not set in stone. Yes, it will always probably be an underlying thing, the bedrock of your sexuality (same as for anyone) but once you get free to explore yourself more and your wife more, you will likely find there is way more inside of you than you previously thought.
This is not meant to downplay your very real and very valid current archetype. First thing that will happen is that your current archetype will get to play out all of its fantasies with your wife over time. But after that...your pysche will build on to the archetype as it processes new information, new ideas, new pleasures. You and your wife will both build "branches" off of your current archetypes.
Such a fun ride you are on! I can't wait to see what the updates are a year from now.
Just one bit from my own story to share: I thought I knew my archetype too, and I did to some extent...but there are some weird and wild things inside of me I never knew about. Similarly, some things about my man's sexuality frightened me at first but now - chyuh - bring it on darling! (I'll put some details over at my thread later) The same goes for him too, though. He has "been there and done that" on all his OWN personal archetype and fantasies, for about 15 years he did that. But I have things to bring to the table that he never would have dreamed would come out of this little nice girl...things that he would have never dreamed he would be enjoying along with me, things that would have insulted him before if someone would have asked him if he could get into it or not. So even the most wild and crazy bad boy still has new things to learn, new ways he can expand into. The mind is never ending. There are no limits except those you impose on yourself. Some people's archetype is a self-imposition of "this is how I am and it is only how I am, I cannot grow". But mostly those types of people (and I was one of them) just don't know they can grow until they've been shown a new path and given some time to explore it.
Hey have you and your W seen the movie Secretary? Its a bit twisted but it is so erotic, strange and sexual...I'm pretty sure you will both enjoy it very much. It is a strange love story about a secretary and her boss...and it includes lots of spankings.
You have peaked my interest... I really never heard of this before.... I wonder what my H's "fantasy" girl is? I am going to have to look into this further.. I did the same thing your Wife did... I was submissive even when I was very turned on too.... HHMM?
I have lots of curves too and even when I gain they go to the curves... big chest and bottom. So he may also like it splitting at the seams...too?
Hmmmmm~
Great post B~ Can this only be "worked " on in Therapy? My H would never go for it. We are doing very well but I still would like to keep going more and learn more. WE too are having the best sex and connection of our lives. Nothing short of amazing isnt it. Like all the puzzle finally fits. Take care and God bless.. Thank you for posting this! ~Ali
On the one hand, I would say yes, because this is all so individual and couple specific that self-analysis is probably not a good idea, nor would you get very accurate results. I'm just a 'dork with a degree' and a tendency to go into overdrive into any topic that interests me. Luckily our own therapist doesn't mind my crossing fields and digging into the books on his library shelf too much, as long as I remember who the real expert is (NOT me).
On the other hand, asking your husband about his fantasies and 'dream girl' could be very educational for you (if he'll open up and tell you). And hopefully, he'll return the favor and ask you to share your fantasies with him. I'm sure you've encountered this advice in a lot of your own reading, Ali. In my own experience, I can do this only indirectly with my wife. She won't discuss her fantasies openly, but she doesn't hide what she reads, listens to, or watches, so I can learn about her tastes and interests that way.
Besides, learning about the psychology behind the fantasy can be a bit of a bubble burster. I never thought of my dream-girl as the 'Anti-Mom' (sort of like the Anti-Christ), I just knew what I was the most attracted to and turned on by. But she is, even down to the hair. My mother always had short-cut hair in some sort of stiff hair-do, one that no one was allowed to touch (it would feel icky of you did, anyway). My dream-girl, and my wife, have loads of luxurious hair, spilling down their shoulders and back, just asking to have your hands and face in it (Cinco mentioned this too, actually).
Now, when I think of my dream-girl, I sometimes remember the connection to my mother....that'll deflate you....dammit!
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
This is interesting B~. After my wife gave birth she cut her hair very short. I know it was for practical reasons, so a baby's grabbing hands would not pull her hair. I never expressed my opinions on this but I hated when she cut her hair like that. It was the worst look for her. Looking back now, it also was her transformation from wife to mother. My dream girl with flowing hair was taken from me, replaced by a mother with an unbecoming hair-do. My fantasy was over just like that.
Thank goodness she has that beautiful long hair I love so much again. Even now when I complement her about her hair she will say things like, "I'm too old to wear my hair long like this anymore." To me it looks better now than ever, even better than in our younger days. I always reinforce how much I love the way that it looks and beg her not to cut it short when she says those things.
Now if I could just get her to wear something other than Birkenstock shoes every now and then.
You know how to tell the difference between a German shoe and an Italian shoe in the dark? The German one is the one you'd grab for throwing at a yowling ally cat because it'll have enough heft to get the job done.
