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Pressure is happening because, no matter how you try to spin this thing, you are still goal oriented on getting sex. You are not trying to really repair the problem. There is a difference. The problem is NOT that you aren't getting sex, but you think that it is, therefore you are only focused on getting that "problem" fixed...not the root issue, which is that you and your wife are BOTH contributing to your lack of physical intimacy.

And as far as the "superior to men" comment, puh-leeze. Can you not take advice for what it is worth? I am not saying women don't do this (trying to distract to get sexual attention) because they are superior...I am saying it is because women tend to be very concerned about others' feelings and once we get that message "don't bug me while I am working" we remember it and don't do it again. Whereas men are more concerned about their own feelings...which is not to say they are inferior it is simply a fact (and it is actually something women should adopt more often). Men will tend to be more concerned with their own need for sudden sexual attention than he is concerned about whether his wife is receptive to that or not. When she isn't, he gets insulted, but how is that fair? She never invited it and she is clearly working at that moment.

But don't believe me! Just go ahead and grab her boob the next time she has a frying pan in her hand and then see how far you get. Do it every morning! Its a sure fire way to get her turned on! (hee hee...I'm just joshin' ya).

DQ

Point taken, and early on in this thread, you did mention that you had been practicing non-sexual touch on a regular basis for some time -- I do remember that. It was something that -> I <- stopped doing when I became estranged from my wife, and it was a habit that I had to make myself pick up again when I began making repairs to my relationship. Pardon my projecting!

However, when I, DQ, or Ali state that "seduction begins in the morning" (and not at 10:30 PM), what that really means is: begin building the romantic mood that morning, and refresh it during the day. There is a very fine line here you have to walk between being affectionate and sexual, and where you walk will be different depending upon the woman and the day that you are trying to warm her up. In general, however, start lightly and affectionately, and build from there as opportunities permit and depending upon the feedback you are getting from her.

For example, first thing in the morning, the only change I might make from a 'standard' good morning hug and kiss is that I will make the kiss just a little more lingering. I take just an extra second to enjoy the taste of her, and let her taste my desire for her -- then disengage. It's like striking a piece of steel with flint: all I want is a tiny spark, a "hmmm, he tasted good" thought. Nothing more.

During the day, I'll give her a phone call and see how the day is going for her, remembering that at this time of the day, she's in full-blown mommy-mode, has a list, and is plowing through it. My only goal is to maintain the emotional connection and remind her that I'm thinking about her and actually care about how her day is going.

When I get home in the evening, I might walk in the door with flowers (depending upon what the corner store has on display) -- nothing fancy or expensive: that really isn't necessary. Just something to say "You're special to me." I might give her a somewhat more lingering greeting kiss than the one that morning, but again stop there, and disengage. She's still in mommy-mode, dinner has to be put on the table, homework for school done, and so forth. Strike the flint and steel again, but don't try to make a flame. Additionally, doing all you can to help her finish off her day's to-do list will be appreciated and seen as a romantic gesture (yes, I know you already to this too).

The rest of the evening is pretty variable, depending upon the circumstances, but may involve more of the engage-disengage dance and a few more sparks. I don't, however, ever try to start the flame going until she's done with her stuff and can get out of mommy-mode for the night. In addition, my wife needs some definite decompression time to herself each night, so I make sure she gets that too. I play it all by ear, and take the openings when they come.

It's all a dance, and sometimes it goes well, and sometimes one of us gets our toes stepped on. My wife has this romantic notion that if I love her enough, and understand her well enough, I'll just know what to do and when to do it when it comes to seducing her. But she's also a big girl who knows that real life doesn't work like the fantasy, and that I can be as perplexing to her sometimes as she is to me -- even after 23 years together. So I just do the best I can to read her moods and learn my lessons as I go. There are days when I can leave a dirty note stuck to the bathroom mirror (that she'll find after I leave for work) and she will smile about it and tuck that thought away. There are other days when she will roll her eyes at that note and think something uncomplimentary about the crude banality of men. There is certainly a skill and an art to romancing even a single woman that you know better than anyone else, and in my own newly rediscovered romantic relationship, I've still got the training wheels on.

It's also important to note that at your stage in recovering your SSM, there is still a LOT of sexual tension between you two, which tends to work against you. It puts pressure on her (whether imposed by you on her, or by her on herself), and makes you anxious and 'simmering,' like a shark circling in the water just waiting to snap at an opportunity to make love OR to feel rejected. As The SSM states in Part III, the only way to get what you want is to be patient and not push it. The more relaxed you can BOTH be --before-- anything happens, the better are the chances of something actually happening.

For now you're sort of stuck in the mode of "I'll relax when I make love to her," and she's stuck in the mode of "I'll relax when he stops hounding me about it." Believe me Bear, that's a tangled web that I know all too well, and have only recently broken free of. It takes work and TIME.

You've got her attention, she's read the book (or is looking at it), and she's willing to work with you to solve the issue. So be patient, and GAL, GAL, GAL.

Take care,

Bagheera

OK, so what do I do? And let's not kid ourselves, I wouldn't be here if I had a satisfying sex life. That's why I bought a book called The Sex-Starved Marriage. I do NOT agree with your take on the "root issue." If I'm not focused on solving the problem of how we both contribute, then what's with all the changes I've made in the way I do things? If I think it's all her fault, why have I changed my behavior?


I do take advice. I've taken a lot of yours. I don't blindly accept anything. I understood that you were trying to help, but I saw a problem with your reasoning and I told you about it. There's more coming.


Look at what you wrote and tell me it isn't just a little biased against men. Women are selfless, men are selfish, but it's OK because that's how they are.
Except in western civilization, which is where you and I live. There ethics are based on Judeo-Christian morality and a person with little or no concern for others is definitely seen as inferior to an empathetic person.
You don't have to agree with me, but don't dismiss my point of view by telling me I just don't want advice. There's a little more going on in my head than that.


I know, and I don't want to sound like I've lost my sense of humor, but . . . . you do recall that there was no frying pan and no job being performed in real life, right? That was the scenario you came up with to explain her state of mind. Years ago, I did do something sexual--I don't remember what now--when she was cutting something in the kitchen. She told me that was dangerous. She was right, so I never did it again.

You're right, and I guess I wasn't treading as lightly as I should have been. It just seems like I can't win. It's been almost a month now that I've been trying to make a concerted effort NOT to pressure her, and what did it get me? Pressure. On her. I know it will take time, but it felt like total failure this morning.


I don't want to be a shark, but sometimes it seems like the more I try not to be, the more she sees it in me. Like this morning.


I'm trying. I've started shooting and bicycling again. Shot my first highpower match on Sunday, in the pouring rain so hard I couldn't see through shooting glasses, and it was a blast. But it's hard for me to take a lot of time away from the family and not feel guilty. I've really thrown myself into a big political project lately, too, and that's been going great.

OK, now that I've pissed everybody off, here's how my night went. We talked a little bit this morning. I told her about what Ali said, and asked her what she thought. She told me that, yes, she felt like she was under a lot of pressure. I told her I was sorry that I'd put pressure on her, that I'd been trying to do the opposite. I wasn't mad at her, I just felt defeated. I'd thought I'd been doing so much to make things better, and here we were back where we started--both trying to please the other, not knowing what to do, but feeling all this pressure to get it right.
There were tears. We talked about what she wants. She told me she has no idea. She told me:
"I don't think about things like you do. I don't know what I think about things. I don't know what I feel about things!"

We've talked about this before--that I sit and analyze my thoughts and everyone else's, and she just floats through. Only I don't think she really does; how does life get her so depressed if she's floating through without thinking about it? In any case, I asked her to think about what she wants from me and tell me about it later today when she got the chance. That was as low-pressure as I could manage to be.

Then it was time to take the twins to their camps/classes. I took one to basketball, went to the computer store with the other one to get my wife's laptop (it's been sitting useless for months, so as part of taking charge I took it in and authorized repairs) then got him lunch and dropped him off at his class at noon. Then it was back to the other town to get the first kid, take him to lunch, and then we had a couple of hours to kill before we had to be home. I took him to the bike shop and let him look around while I asked about parts for the baby bike trailer. Then we went to the local bike trail (our town doesn't have one) and took a walk. As we walked, I picked wildflowers and made a bouquet for my wife. When we got home, I put the flowers in a vase with a sticky note that said "No pressure, just flowers."

I was worried that she'd think I was trying to replay the old incident with wildflowers that I told you all about, thus leading to more pressure, but I figured only a coward is afraid to give his woman flowers. She told me she loved them.

Now, here's where it got confusing for me, and I still haven't sorted through it yet. I hope I did the right thing. We talked a little more before dinner, and she told me she still wasn't really sure what she wants. I told her that was OK, but to think about what I'd be doing if the pressure were gone. She got tearful and talked about her feeling that she's lost herself; she had a terrible year at work last year, and she feels like she compromised too much. (In our line of work the school tells you that you have to fight for the students, then they constantly demand cuts in services. Our students are not the average kids.) She says she feels empty. I told her I do get the impression that she thinks that what she thinks doesn't matter, but it does matter to the rest of us. The only thing she thought of that she wanted to change was her weight, so I suggested she come walking with me tomorrow morning. I think it would do us good in a lot of ways to walk together in the early mornings before the twins wake up.

We had dinner and put the baby to bed; the boys had to go to bed early because they were so crazy last night. I sat down to get some work done on my political project. She took a shower, came out in that thin robe and . . . well, she made . . . overtures. Expressions of interest. There were eyebrows involved, along with other parts. It was crystal clear what she wanted. I know I must have looked like a puzzled dog trying to figure out a doorknob. She'd just been telling me about all the pressure I put her under . . . was this real? Was she reacting to more pressure, real or perceived? Did she even know? If she didn't, how could I ever be expected to know? I took a shower, too, and went upstairs.

She was waiting for me. She tried to initiate, but I stopped her and asked whether she was sure and what was going on. She said she couldn't tell me what was going on, but I'd brought her the flowers and listened to her. I told her the flowers were not intended to get her into bed (and they weren't, whatever anyone thinks.) She said that was fine, but now she wanted me.
I told her honestly that I was now completely adrift with no idea what the right thing to do might be. That I was worried about how she would feel in the morning--would she decide I had pressured her? That I should have said "no?" There was no way to be sure. I asked her one more time whether she was sure. She said yes. I kissed her and told her I wanted her and we'd deal with tomorrow when it came. She told me if I'd asked one more time, she'd have told me no.

I'll spare you the details, but I'll mention something I know Bagheera will enjoy analyzing. As things progressed, she asked me:
"What would you say if I wanted to have WILD sex tonight?"
"I'd say yes. What do you have in mind?"
"Oh, I don't know."
"You can't think of anything?"
"Well . . . no. I don't know."

I decided to take that as permission. I took over and took what I wanted. It was on the forceful side. She really seemed to enjoy it, and we had a great time lying together snuggling afterwards, but I couldn't help wondering what she's going to think about it tomorrow.

I know one of the women is going to explain that these are not mixed signals and it's all perfectly clear once you understand how a woman's mind works, but, (and this is the catch) clearly I have no idea at all how a woman's mind works.

Your story continues to sound far all too familiar to me, Bear. I've made many of the same fumbling mistakes, been haunted by many of the same doubts and uncertainties, but believe me when I say that you are on the right track.



The best thing that you can do then, for both of you, is to continue to 'man up' in the relationship. Take the lead: she'll let you know when you're doing the right thing, or if you're on the wrong track. My own wife and I have recognized the irony of our own marriage recovery: in order to fix it, I (the man) had to point the way toward repairing our emotional relationship (which was supposed to be her area of expertise), while she (the woman) had to point the way toward repairing our physical relationship (which was supposed to be my area of expertise). In both cases, however, I had to be 'the man,' and take charge.



As my kids would say: "Dude! Stop it!" When something like this happens, take Michele's advice and Just Do It!. Stop the analysis, stop the second guessing, stop the doubting -- just enjoy!

Heaven knows, I'm terrible at this myself, Bear. I've got a Ph.D., and researching, collecting data, analyzing, forming models, and testing hypotheses have been a part of me since I was eight. And do you know how much good that Ph.D. does me in the bedroom? Nadda, zilch, and zip --> this mindset hurts me more than it helps me. One of the things that my wife and our therapist are working to get me to STOP is the constant analysis of our relationship and "spectatoring" in the bedroom (monitoring my 'performance' and analyzing it afterwards). My wife jokingly calls herself my latest 'research project,' and I can see why (although she knows how deeply in love with her I am).



BINGO! You successfully romanced her yesterday, and didn't even know it. You made her feel special and cherished (with the flowers), and connected with her emotionally (with the conversation, especially conversation about FEELINGS). Congratulations!

Since I mentioned flowers before, I'll add one warning note about them. The perceived intent behind them is critical. If your wife thinks that the message is "I'm giving you these flowers ONLY because I want to get laid," then you fail. If your wife thinks that the message is "I'm giving you these flowers because you're incredibly special to me (whether I get laid or not)" then you've succeeded.



Me? Analyze? I've LIVED this one, puzzled it, researched it, and now (think I) understand it. One of the keys to arousing a sexually submissive person is to remove all burdens from them. They don't want to take charge, they don't want to make a decision, they don't want to spell out or even think about what they might want for themselves. Their joy and their arousal comes from following your lead, your directions, your arousal, and your pleasure. It's an incredibly freeing experience, especially for someone who has to be in charge of [a company, a classroom, a pack of children] during the day. You aren't just pleasuring yourself Bear, you're giving her a wonderfully liberating gift, and she TRUSTS you, and only you, to do that for her.



I'm going to encourage you again to have a serious discussion with your wife, outside of the bedroom, and set up any necessary boundaries and a safe-word system. You need this for your own protection, and for the safety of both of you. You may never need to use it (my wife and I haven't yet), but it's there, just in case.

I'm also going to step out on a limb here, and recommend that you research the Taken in Hand (TIH) relationship. It may help to answer some of your question about your wife, and may even be what she is hoping for, even if she can't spell it out --> a common trait among strong, naturally dominant women who lean this way. I certainly never thought that my own strong, feminist wife secretly yearned for a more 'traditional' husband-wife relationship, and for many years this lack of understanding on my part hurt us. I finally 'got it,' and the changes we have made have been remarkably nice for both of us.

You'll have to figure out what's best for your OWN relationship, however. Everyone is different. For example, I can see DanceQueen balking loudly at adopting such a male-led relationship. So do what's best for you and your wife, and take my words as just a sharing of my own journey.

Best regards,

Bagheera

Um...Baggy? You would be 100% incorrect with the assumption that I would balk at a male-led relationship. My man physically and roughly takes me regularly, and we even go much farther than that at times into true sexual domination and submission. I love a good spanking from him on a regular basis. So there!

:0)

Plus it goes on outside the bedroom as well...he takes the lead on nearly everything and I LOVE IT.

But anyway...Silly...What will your wife think the next morning about the great, rough sex you had with her? She will think its the best sex she's had in years or possibly ever.

Rock on, boys.

DanceQueen

I rest my case! <bangs gavel>

You're such a sweetheart, DQ -- thanks for the support. I'm still so UN-used to this new relationship, that I keep expecting a hew and cry of feminist rage to occur whenever I bring up what's starting to work for us. And you also lend great credence to my observation that it is often the more intelligent, strong women who want this type of relationship --> they've proven themselves in the "man's" world, and can now relax and consent to what really makes them happy with their man. Bless you all!

A humorous note about erotic spanking: I tried this with my wife for the first time only recently, and on the first swing, my arm literally froze -- and the mental battle ensued. I was brought up to NEVER hit girls, and what was I about to do? to the woman I loved above all others? I must have looked like a strange statue for a few seconds there. It was only by shear force of will, and trust in my wife, that I broke through that barrier...and with good results for her ;).

<sigh> The things I do for love....

-- B.

Baggy - please go see my sex blog for more.

Silly - sorry for mini-hi-jacking. You are doing well!

DQ

Silly, I've got to agree on this one. Don't over analyze... Just appreciate the moment and "Just Do It". You are so much further along than I am in this regard. I'm still waiting for the come on from my wife and I have been waiting from day one (23 years). Your wife is giving you clear signals that she wants you, no need to think that one through...just say to yourself, "YES!"

Cinco