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Funny you mention that sg -

In an earlier post I mentioned that our house was undergoing
some remodeling. it basically came to a stand still so there
are parts of it that are a mess and need work. I was planing
on starting back up and working on the house again even if
she was mad at me. I was going to do it not just because it
was bothering her not being done, but to keep busy too.

If I tell her to take the bedroom now do you think she is
just going to think I'm trying to kiss her ass? I'm trying
to be very carful of what I do because I don't want to backslide
anymore. Hell, I need to make some kind of progress before I
go bonkers.

I could probably have an additional bedroom finished in about
two weeks.

She is just so mean... today she was roaring and I've been
upstairs all day. I didn't even sleep last night as you can
probably tell by my post stamps. I just love this woman and
my kids more than anything in the world and this is tearing
me apart.

- Scott

Just do it. It should remove some of her nastiness. It could escalate it short term (hours/day or two), because she may gain momentum. Just tell her you aren't going to move out, but you are willing to give her the bed so she can get a good night's sleep. Tell her your first construction priority will be making another bedroom. Don't say it's your room or her room, maybe you'll be back together again by then.

You will never exactly know what's going on in her mind.

It's ok to kiss her ass. Just gotta look manly and cool when you do it.

Yeah, that is what I'm going to do. I'll just start on the room and when she says anything I'll explain what I'm doing.

I do have one other question.

I have had a letter typed up for a few days. it is really long
and goes into a lot of stuff I was dealing with emotionally
with the kids, the illness I was dealing with and all of the
neglect towards here. It is not a begging, pleading letter or
anything like that. It is basically and apology and a letter
to validate pretty much everything she has told me. I wrote
the letter so that I'd first - remember everything I wanted
to say and 2nd so that she could read it in her own time and
it would not be argumentative.

It's not an open ended letter either... there would be no
need for her to respond to it. It's just a talk from me.

Should I give this to her, or leave it for her? In my eyes it
will help get across that I am accepting the blame, validating
her emotions and stating that I'm working on overcoming my
problems for ME. No anger, hostility or anything like
that is in it and that way it does not lead to any relationship
talk, but I still get to at least validate and let some of
my thoughts out to her.

I know she is going out tonight and I was thinking to leave it
for her when she gets home?

- Scott

I've written a couple of these and they did nothing positive for me other than get some junk of my chest.

I totally understand why you feel the need to pass along this info but it hasn't worked out real well for me at all. I would hang onto it, read it when you feel like you have to, and not give it to her.

Man is she being a real jerk. She seems totally committed
to getting a divorce. She's already told old friends and
some of her distant family that it's done and just a matter
of time. She put a couple of my things in a box today and
said "make sure you take this stuff when you go"

She was just talking on the phone about it. Definitely
projected loudly enough so I could hear it. Being happy
about it finally being over and moving on and never looking
back etc.

Really hard to deal with hearing that and then trying to
be positive when she is just being a total jerk at all
times.

What really gets me is that she's stated before that she
still wants to be friends, yet she does all this spiteful
and down right hateful garbage. She does not want to talk
to me at all about anything (I mean non R). She barely even acknowledges me.

I mean I'm starting to feel that I don't want to be here
because of this, it's just so draining emotionally and
even physically on both of us. Even the looks I get from
her are like she wants to burn a hole right through me.

I bet she has said less than 100 words to me in the past
month. I mean talk about distant.

I think if I stay here she will just build up more resentment
and anger and go right through with the divorce. It's obvious
that she needs space and lots of it. I'm thinking the best
option is to move out and give her that space and see where
it goes from there.

- Scott

I think the letter will push her away.

Moving out is an option....giving her space is very good....I would try other things first like the bedroom, but you're right.....she does need lots of space.


You could call a DB coach for a consultation/opinion.

You may be forgetting her mindset. Remember that you have been part of the reason that she is acting this way. I am sure she is thinking... "How does it feel" when someone is emotionally all over the place? The facts are that it IS hard to stay in love with a person who is angry one moment and says things and does things that hurt and then wants you to forget about it the next day.

Your FIRST and most important priority right now should be to get your own issues under COMPLETE control. Two unhealthy people make for an unhealthy relationship. Get healthy at all cost. You need to show day after day after day consistency here. It sounds like it could be one of the big challenges of your life. She sounds tired and beaten down from your up and down emotions. To be quite frank, it is draining. Stop draining her and stop draining yourself. Please focus on getting your issues under complete control. It is imperative if you want to save this relationship. It isn't a one week or two week "I am changed" reality.

She needs to "feel" that you really really DO understand her point of view on this. When and if she does "feel" that you do and make no excuses, is when you may see some progress.

Remember that she is following her feelings right now, just as you have in the past. Feelings can and do change.

Here's my current status:

Learned a few things today that validated some thoughts and
feelings I've had.

I was talking to a friend of mine last night for a couple of
hours. She is a good friend of both I and my wife. We ended
up talking about the relationship and my w. This conversation
was not staged by me or my wife. This is a really good friend
who we've both known for a very long time. She knows all about
our problems and she does not take sides. I guess my wife and
I both lean on her from time to time. She called because she
had a problem with her car and we ended up talking. She goes
out with my wife a lot and talks to her all the time. Anyway...

She basically told me from things that she has seen and talks
she has had with my wife that my wife needs space because
she is too stressed out with me here. She feels angrier because
she asked repeatedly to do ONE thing FOR HER, which is to move
out and I'm still here so that really just keeps her in
anger/divorce mode. She said it would be impossible for her to
reconcile because she is just staying in this stress/anger
mode.

She said that she has talked to my wife about our relationship
plenty of times in depth and she said her current state is a big
part of the problem. She does not want to see any reason because
she is angry and resentful. This woman knows about my hypo
and she knows the exact problem and tried to help my wife
see it for the problem it is, but she does not trust it
because of past episodes, which is totally understandable.
(Note - I did not ask or tell this friend to talk to my wife or
anything like that. Just wanted to be clear on that)

She agrees with me, agrees with my doctor and nutritionist
that the problem and the last setback that occurred was a direct
result of the hypo and allergy. She tried to explain it to my wife
too and even tried to show her how it was different from any
of the episodes that happened in the past, but wife is too
upset/angry right now to see any kind of logic. She said
she is having too many up and down emotions and said my wife
probably wants divorce because she does not want to deal with any
more problems and is tired of it all. She is having problems
getting past the past and me being here just keeps all of those
past thoughts and resentments right in her focus at all times so
it's impossible for her to "unstress" and think clearly.

This is why I as well as her( friend) think it would be
best for both of us if I move out. If I stay her how can
we possibly move forward because my wife will just be
kept in this anger/resentment mode?

She's told me that my wife tells her all the time how much
she loves me, but when we fight she gets into the "not
the same kind of love" mode. My friend validated to me
that my wife gets like this when we have problems. She
also validated to me that when my wife and I are clicking
and getting along that she is a totally different
person. As recently as two months ago she was telling our
friend how close we were getting again and how great it
was because of how good our relationship was and well I
was doing. The hypo crash is what basically come into
the picture and screwed everything up. My wife shut right
down after that and turned to divorce mode and distance
mode pretty much instantly. In this mode she digs up
a lot of stuff from the past and she told my friend
that she was feeling unwanted. Some of the feelings she
expressed where:

(Guys should especially pay attention here because women
rely on their feelings.)

- Feeling unwanted
- Not feeling sexy
- Feeling like she could not come to me for emotional support
- Feeling like I did not go to her for emotional support
- Feeling resentment
- Feeling unloved
- Feeling like she's not "in love" with me
- No self esteem
- Stressed
- Not feeling happy

Now, I actually feel pretty good after having that conversation
because for one, it validates that my wife is still very
much in love with me and validates why she is constantly
stuck in anger/resentment. And two... it also confirms
to me what I need to do to fix the problem.

I know that I'm still the same person she fell in
love with and married... I just had a problem pop up
that got in the way. I'm a good guy, selfless and have
a heart of gold. That in itself helps me know
that moving out is the right thing to do for her in
this particular situation.

Learn a lesson from the past -

When I moved out months ago it was a similar situation. My
wife was stressed, angry, resentful and could not think
clearly. She was driven by all these negative emotions,
which prevented any positive emotions from shining through
no mater what I said or did. She was clouded with negativity.
My friend and I were also talking about this and she saw
the exact same patterns in her then. It was identical to
what she is doing now. The same kind of talk and the same
kind of feelings about being scared to get close and trusting
as well as the above feelings I listed.

What got my wife to change last time?

I moved out and gave her space. It took about a month,
but she came around eventually and started talking to me
and we worked it out after she saw how well I was doing.

At that time I was not aware of DB or DR so as you can
imagine I did the whole pleading and clingy crap and
that just pushed my wife into divorce mode even
though we were getting along.

After the pleading I went partially dark for about two weeks
and it was very hard, but my wife ended up contacting me. I
remember it vividly. I could tell she was upset and she was
fishing trying to get answers from me on what I was doing,
what plans I had etc. She got into talking about how divorce
is the best thing for us and how she just wants to go out
and have fun and see other people because they'll make her
feel sexy and wanted etc.

(Side Note - I felt she was cynical, spiteful and rude, but
the more I think about it, I believe she was saying and
acting this way to me to show me flat out the feelings she
was having. Why else would she tell me about feeling wanted
and sexy by meeting guys etc. She was probably really
reaching out to me and saying "Hey knucklehead, LOOK AT ME,
THIS IS WHAT I NEED AND HOW I WANT TO FEEL!")

I stuck with my tone and said I was planing
on moving and living my life. She got really defensive
and angry at me spewing all kinds of stuff trying to
push my buttons, but I ended the conversation. A few
days later she texted me about something financial, we
ended up chatting a bit, it turned sexual and that night
I stayed over and we slept together. We ended up having
a relationship talk (I know now that was a mistake, but at
the time I thought it was what we should do) I suggested
going to a marriage workshop and trying to work things out.
Now I see how her mood really started changing when the R
talk came up and she was immediately getting distant again
and talking about how it's not the same, that she
wants a divorce etc. I ended up leaving in the morning
because she was upset.

IMPORTANT POINT -
Every single time relationship talk came up she would go
distant and talk about not being "in" love and not feeling
the same, she would get down and moody. When there was no
relationship talk she pulled me in close, loved me to death
and was a pure joy to be around.

*banging into head* NO RELATIONSHIP TALK!!!!!

Later that day this is what she sent me:

-
"There are so many things I want to tell you. I know last night was like old times, and I don't want to hurt you.
I'm still so very upset. I can't do this I am so scared to get back to this. I am not ready to go to the marriage
workshop.

I can't look at you and tell you this because it breaks my heart to see the disappointment on your face. I can't
do this again. I called the lawyer about the divorce. That is what I want. I'm so sorry to hurt you. Please don't be mad
at me.

Love was never the issue, I do love you and probably always will. The bond we have will always be there. But I need to
do what I feel is best and after last night I feel this is the best. I do need to tell you how proud I am of how you are
helping your bi polar. You are doing great, I do see the comfy guy again.

Please just spend time with your girls, and If you feel the need to move thats fine, but think it threw first and do it for the
right reasons. I can't see you or talk on the phone, It kills me to see you and when you are trying I am being so selfish
and not being supportive or there for you.

I will miss you,"
-

At the time I was devastated to receive that and I ended up replying
and trying to do more R talk, which probably hindered some of the
progress. I was trying to validate her feelings, but it was
more to try and save the relationship. I wish I had the reply
I sent because I would post it.I only have what she sent. Here is
what she sent back.

-
"I'm not sure all of the things I need to tell you. There is just so much that needs to be talked about. My heart has been totally broken when you began talking to someone else about so many things that I wish you would have talked to me about. I still get very upset just thinking about it.
I feel a part of me got lost when that happened. I feel so down and have no self esteem.

I know things do seem like we were dating again. That is why I need to take a break and get back to clearing my head. I'm not really sure I even want to be married anymore. For reasons I don't even understand. Things have changed with me starting when my dad died that I seem not to be able to get past. I hope this is not sounding selfish.

If all of this had happened a year or two ago I would be so happy. I always knew you would get the help you needed. I just didn't think it would be when I was so used to doing and handling everything on my own. I wanted to tell you all of this in person, but when I look at you I get very clouded and upset. I don't want to hurt you at all.

I think our lives had become so routine. I wonder if we stayed together for the girls. Then I think if we truly loved each other neither of us would have went to other people. Who's to say it won't happen again. I am very scared it could. Well I have a ton more [censored] I would like to say but drawing a blank now."
-

Note: I did not have an affair, she was stuck on that idea for a while
because she was jealous and upset that I was talking to an old friend.
There was absolutely nothing at all going on between us, but my wife did
not believe it. Now, she told me she DID have an affair. Although she said
it was not sexual and I believe her. Once we got back together we told
each other that we would not talk to these people any longer. I didn't,
but I'm not sure if she is still talking to her friend or not. I think
she is.

After that last reply I sent her another email telling her
that I was not having any kind of affair and that she was taking
it the wrong way. I recommitted myself to her, got into some more
relationship talk and that was it.

She ended up picking me up that night and we again got into more
relationship talk and that is when she admitted to me to having
and EA. I forgave her and told her I understood exactly why it
happened. We held each other for a while without saying much
and later that night ended up sleeping together. We both committed
to each other that we would not talk to anyone else and would
come to each other instead. The next day she went out with
some friends and got a little drunk. She ended up pouring
her heart out to me. Saying how deep her love was, that
she did not want a divorce that we belong together as
a family and I belong there etc. I moved back
in the next day.
-

Now about the current situation. As you can see it parallels
the last time expect she seems to be more stubborn now, but
I'm still in the house, which probably explains a lot
of the moods she is in.

I'm hoping that I can sort of repeat what I did last
time except with a new outlook thanks to DB and DR
and this support forum. I know when to skip the R talk
and now know the kinds of emotions and feelings she is
dealing with and why. I think I'm a lot smarter in terms
of the problems now then I was then and of course I am also
able to control the hypo problem.

I'm so glad our friend is there for us, because she really
helped me understand my wives current feelings, emotional
outlook etc.

My friend said that she will talk to her again when she is
in a better frame of mind about the hypo and how the episodes
where a direct result of it. She basically said every time
they go out my wife will talk about us anyway both positively
and negatively, so I know it's constantly on her mind no matter
how well she hides it around me.

Women are much better than men at hiding their emotions and
that is really tough because we never know what they are
doing or thinking.

PLAN

So now my current plan is to move out tomorrow. I don't plan
on getting into a relationship talk with her, I'll just
move some of mystuff out and tell her that she can go back
to the bedroom because I'm staying somewhere else.

QUESTIONS:

Do you think I should use the last resort technique now when
I move out, should I go dark or not? Should I just wait
for her to contact me about something and just basically
ignore her now so she has tons of space?

I now I'm definitely going to need help on validating and when
the inevitable R talks come up. I have a good idea for another
thread on validation so I'll post that in a bit.

FEELINGS

I do admit i am battling with some rough emotions internally
now. I guess some of it is fear of loss thinking that if
I move out now, she is just going to move on. i guess everyone
goes through these internal mind battles. I think that's why
I prolonged moving out... I was scared that "this is it" if
I go, but in reality I'm making it worse by NOT going.

Arrgg, this really sucks. I have to stop beating myself
up about it.

DIET/MOOD CHANGES
As far as diet and changes I have made. I am not worried about
them at all. I'm already accustomed to the diet and I have
zero cravings or needs for anything else. In fact, after
being on it for a while your taste actually changes. My
nutritionist told me that would happen to so it's nice to see
it come into play. There are a lot of foods that I like now
that I could never eaten before like tomatoes, avocados, spinach
etc. I have zero sugar cravings and even some fruits are
actually too sweet tasting now since I've changed my diet. I
feel so good... like a teenager again. I have so much energy
and my mood is stable all day long. Like I said in another
post, I feel 1000% better.

The only thing that really sucks about it is that I was
(and still am) so excited because we finally solved the problem
I have been dealing with for years and I'm left to celebrate
myself without my wife who I really wanted to be proud and
supportive. That is the really hard part.


So what do you guys think about my current plan of action?

I have a journal that I will be posting whats working and whats
not working so i can carefully track what I'm doing and not
backslide as much as possible.


I hope this post helps some of you who might be in a
similar sitch. All in all I would say that separation to
reconciliation took about 2months.

- Scott

I just told my wife that I am moving out. She would not really
look me in the eyes and she really did not say anything.

I told her that she should go back in our room and I'll take
the couch until I'm out, but she just said "I want you just to
leave." I said I will and that I did not tell the kids yet, but
will tomorrow. I then told her I was sorry for being snippy
the other night when she ripped that letter up. I said seeing
that really got to me and that's why I was annoyed. I told her I
just wanted to tell her that so I was not keeping in inside
and letting it build up into anger. She got pissed and said
"You're in my face too long, I hate when you pick on [censored] like
this" and I just said ok, I just wanted to let you know that
I will be moving out. She said "good, go live with your friend"

I know i should not have even said anything back, but I said "
I wish you would stop saying stuff like that, I have nothing to
do with anyone else and have no intentions of moving in with
anyone. She said "yeah right... it doesn't mater anyway I'm
going to be seeing other people" and then she stormed out.

I took the kids out to eat and when we got home she was gone,
so she went out again.

I mentioned going dark, but I'm not sure if that's a good idea
especially since she has felt neglected in our relationship and
the past month or so I have been here, but really we have
been avoiding each other. After reading some stuff on here about
going dark both positive and negative I am now leery about it.

For example:

"If you were guilty of being withdrawn and emotionally
neglectful during the R, it can be a "more of the same"
behavior, and could do more harm then good."

I don't want to do anymore harm. I feel now that if I go
dark it just might give her more motivation to seek out
other men.

Any advice here?

- Scott

Yes - I know that I need to STOP getting into R talks!

No advice, but I'm somewhat in the same boat, although i don't get the 'hatred' that you seem to be getting. If part of the problem has been non-communicative then going dark could just be adding to the problem. I think she already seeing other people, and that 'other people' is a big part of her wanting you to move out NOW.