I may need to read that more than once. That's considerably more complicated than any routine I've ever done to train for college football, powerlifting, jiu-jitsu or track and field.
I may need to read that more than once. That's considerably more complicated than any routine I've ever done to train for college football, powerlifting, jiu-jitsu or track and field.
Not really -- don't be overwhelmed by my condensed description. It's a matter of starting simple, with a "sensate focus" (i.e. paying attention to your body) exercise and slowly layering on complexity with time and practice.
It can't be any worse than learning a jiu-jitsu form. You begin with each move individually, and then learn to meld them into a fluid dance.
Also, the Kessling book is available on-line in audio and ebook forms, if you can't find a hard copy. That's how I found it.
Take care,
-- B.
Last edited by Bagheera; 06/24/0809:06 PM.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
It can't be any worse than learning a jiu-jitsu form. You begin with each move individually, and then learn to meld them into a fluid dance.
Forms? Blasphemy!
We had an argument last night, but we had make-up sex. I can't remember the last time that happened. I really am amazed at how much things have changed in so short a time. I don't trust it yet, but I'm happy.
I packed several garbage bags full of clothes I don't want anymore (still de-cluttering the bedroom) and drove them to the other end of our little town to drop them in the box for the Salvation Army. I stopped to look at a car on the way back, then cruised home. The whole thing probably took 15-20 minutes. When I got home, the dogs were running in the street, my wife was running around trying to catch them, and she was frazzled. I caught the dogs (the only good way is to open up car doors and call them to go for a ride) and she started yelling at me.
I had left without telling her where I was going, the baby was crying at her when she tried to put him to bed, the boys were yelling, then one of them let the dogs out, then they refused to go to bed, and that brought us to the present moment, with the baby in bed, the boys not, the dogs loose, and me getting berated in front of the neighbors. I told her I had every right to leave for a few minutes, and even though it sucked that the boys and the dogs were being so bad while I was gone, it wasn't my fault that they acted that way--I didn't do it. I told her she could take the dogs for a drive and relax for awhile (they learned early that the humans are liars, so now we have to take a ride if we say we're going to take a ride) while I went inside and got the boys to bed; then we'd talk.
I was feeling pretty smart, because I'm not, and dumb people always think they're pretty smart.
So I went upstairs and shut the boys' light off and ordered them into bed. They protested, but they went. I told them we'd talk in the morning about whether they could go to camp today. They freaked out, but I reminded them that this was their only chance to make a good impression and went downstairs. They may not have gone to sleep, but they were quiet.
Now I was feeling really smart. Big mistake. My wife came home and gave me the cold shoulder. She was at the kitchen sink, clearly pissed off. I stood in the kitchen and asked what was wrong. We had what felt like a long discussion about how I owed her the common courtesy of telling her when I left. She yelled. She cried. I worked hard not to yell. It's not that I think it would be bad to tell her when I leave--you should know when your partner's not around. But I wasn't going to accept that just because I forgot to say something that time, it meant I "usually" don't bother. Usually, I tell her I'm leaving simply because I ask if she needs anything while I'm out. I told her that the way I see it, if it's "just common courtesy" as she says, then a person could forget to do it every once in awhile and not get yelled at for it. If you're allowed to yell at someone and get stony-angry because he didn't do something, then it must have been a grave duty, not just a courtesy. And I didn't accept that it was my grave duty to check in before I leave the house. I wasn't going off to the movies; I just wanted to take a few minutes to donate some old clothes. She was unimpressed. She even tried to end the conversation a couple of times, but I was standing in the door, and if there's one thing I can do, it's fill a doorway. Finally I said to her, "OK, imagine this for a minute. Imagine you were the one who had to run an errand. You hop in the car, you go do it, and you're feeling kind of good that you got it done. You head home. When you get home, I'm mad as hell--you don't know why. I'm chasing the dogs. You catch the dogs for me, listen to me tell you how the kids won't go to bed, and offer to fix everything--and you do. And when I come back, I'm yelling at you and crying. Now, at this point, I have had two major problems. You didn't cause either problem. You did solve both of them. And I'm standing in your kitchen yelling at you, calling you undependable and crying. Is that OK with you?" To her credit, she really considered that and agreed that it was no good. We agreed that I would really try to remember to let her know when I leave. She would really try not to overreact again.
I kissed her, and it was good. She responded. I pulled the straps on her tank top down on her arms; she pulled them back up, smiling, and kissed me again. I shut off the lights so the neighbors wouldn't have to see a show and kissed her again. She put her hand down and did a Rockwell test. Must have been acceptable, because she looked up at me and said, "Why don't you take a shower and I'll go up to bed and take all my clothes off?" I tried to say "Yes, please, I would like that ever so much" but I think it came out "Guuhhh? Uh huh!" I couldn't take offense at the shower idea; I'd been working all day and I needed one.
It was a very quick shower, and the rest of the night went very well. In the morning, though, she complained a little about being so tired. I jokingly asked if I'd kept her up too late; she answered yes. I told her in all seriousness that if she didn't want to make love late at night, I'd be available any time, but I want to make love and that's usually when she's willing.
Today, since I was in the local big town about to pick up one twin from camp/class and she was done with work early there, she called me and asked if I wanted to go get lunch together. We couldn't do it because I had to come back to our small town to get the baby from the babysitter as soon as I picked up my half of the twins, but it was sweet that she asked. Whether she's being sweeter or I'm just appreciating it now, I don't know, but it feels good.
I'm trying to take to heart what someone told another poster here: I don't NEED my wife. I WANT my wife. I think it's making a big difference.
It can't be any worse than learning a jiu-jitsu form. You begin with each move individually, and then learn to meld them into a fluid dance.
Forms? Blasphemy!
Yeah, sorry....bad analogy on my part. Our boys do Taekwondo, so we know forms all too well.
Still, ejaculatory control training is not as complicated as I seem to have it sound. The number of months involved is not a matter of complexity, it's a matter of retraining your body out of an undesirable conditioned reflex, which takes time.
It is worth the effort, however. Quite worth it.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
My books were shipped today, so I'll start on those soon.
We had what I can only call mechanical, fumbling sex today. I had to be out of town all day until late last night, but I tried to lay the groundwork. I told her I wanted to make love this morning. I told her I wanted her to think it over, and I gave her a few things to think about. She has taken to saying "We'll see." She used to say that and mean "NO," but now we've talked about getting to a genuine "maybe." I don't want to demand that she tell me she'll be ready for sex at such-and-such a time, but if she says "maybe" I want her to mean it. Anyway, I believe her now when she says "we'll see."
Well, this morning came around, and the baby got up early, crying, and it just wasn't going to happen. I took my son to his class in the big town nearby, and since I never get to shoot anymore and my gun club is located there, I used the time he was in class to go over and do some shooting. It was nice to get a little time to do what I want to do. But by the time I was done with that, had done some shopping and picked up the kid, I was exhausted from being in the car 8 hours last night. I came home, went upstairs and took a nap. Later my wife put the baby down for a nap and came in to see me. We kissed, which led to fondling, and she wasn't really responding wholeheartedly, but she was going through the motions. I think it was the first time she's actually tried to "Just Do It" as Davis would say. We got as far as me giving her oral before I started to feel like I was getting a genuine response from her, which is glossing over a lot of fumbling and a couple of awkward pauses, but there you are. At that point, she was right there in the moment and sexy as hell. I brought her to orgasm and she pulled me up for intercourse. I don't think it felt very good to her, at least at first. It sure felt awkward to me, but no way was I going to do anything that she might take as rejection of her effort. Eventually she loosened up a bit and so did I. I actually think I could have lasted a lot longer that time, but the truth was that even though I love making love to my wife, this was more of an experiment for her and I wanted to end it on a high note before it began to hurt or bore her. Afterward we lay wrapped up together, and THAT felt GREAT. We talked about what we had done and why it felt so weird. I told her that the fact that she was trying meant more to me than anything and made me glad I was married to her. I think all in all it was good. The first time someone tries to make love, even though she really doesn't feel like doing it, has to be weird. She's always been so big on her "mood" having to be just right. It must be maddening to go against that, but she did.
Gurney says mood is a thing for cattle or making love, but in the first place, that isn't always true, and in the second place, I can't help but wonder what happens when Gurney is in the mood for cattle. I hope it involves a steakhouse.
I told her I wanted to make love this morning. I told her I wanted her to think it over, and I gave her a few things to think about. She has taken to saying "We'll see." She used to say that and mean "NO," but now we've talked about getting to a genuine "maybe." I don't want to demand that she tell me she'll be ready for sex at such-and-such a time, but if she says "maybe" I want her to mean it. Anyway, I believe her now when she says "we'll see."
Something important to keep in mind, Bear, and that took my small fleet of relationship books to pound into my thick skull, is the following:
Men have such a high level of testosterone that for them, sexual desire is almost effortless. In our case sexual desire is, let's say, 70% hormonal and only 30% mental. An open mind and little bit of visual or tactile stimulation and the light comes ON -- we're there. The pump is always primed, and we only have that 30% of mental ground to cover before we're ready to go.
Women have about 1/10th the level of testosterone that men have, so for them, sexual desire is something like only 10% hormonal and 90% mental. There is a lot more ground to cover mentally, and for the mother with a small child to care for, that mental gap can seem pretty daunting. In her case, the pump has to be primed first, before she can go anywhere with it.
So in your wife's case, "We'll see" or "Maybe" is an honest answer -- she really doesn't know.
That's where you come in. Never forget the dynamics of romance and masculinity / femininity. "Maybe" often means "convince me" or "seduce me," and it isn't a game: she honestly needs your help to prime the pump and cover that 90% swath of mental ground to get to sexual desire.
At times "Maybe" may even mean "Don't talk about it -- just take me! Let me feel your passion and desire for me!" Although, this particular action does requires some pre-arranged ground rules, as I've discussed before.
Ester Perel (author of Mating in Captivity) calls men, in a relationship where there are small children and the wife is the primary caregiver, the "Keeper of the Flame" (of passion). Left entirely to herself, your wife can go days, weeks, or longer with no 'ignition' at all. Your job then, is to occasionally steer her back to taking time for herself, taking time for yourselves as a couple, taking time to be passionate as a lover again. Learn what it takes to reignite that 'flame' in her.
Also, make very sure that she understands, and hears from your own lips, and from you own touch, the feelings that making love generates in you -- every time. Leave no doubt in her mind that it isn't just a physical release: it's an emotional reconnection, a loving act of bonding for you. She may want to feel your passion and desire for her during the act, but the soft, loving 'afterglow' is just as important.
Best regards,
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Bagheera - Amen to your wonderful understanding of what it takes for some women to get sexually aroused. Your description is perfect!
Silly - You are doing so very well, really.
To both of you, I want to give you hope: once you can cross that hurdle in your wife's mind/body connection, to where she is thinking about sex regularly and you are having sex regularly (even if "Just do it" for a while still), then soon enough she will be "closer" to ready for sex more often. At some point in the process, if you both remain committed to it, she will just "be horny" on her own all of a sudden...and then it will happen more and more often. It builds upon itself, once she gets her groove on. Eventually, the same woman who was LD can truly change and become HD. Not to say that for sure this will happen with your wives, but the *possibility* is there, if as a couple you really stay committed to it.
Strive for it! :0)
I used to think I was LD. Now I know I was just disconnected from my sexual self...by my choice and also my neglect of that part of myself. Once I got connected to that part of myself again and really got going, I realized I was actually just waiting to blossom into a totally new woman...the sexy, vibrant one I always wished I could be. Your wives do want to be that woman, too. And you are both doing so well in helping her.
