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My W mentioned that she was going to go with friend afterwards to hit some stores for clothes shopping. I had a feeling she would bring her along since it wasn't going to take me long and I couldn't picture her driving back across town to pick her up. Energy you could also be right too. The cool thing was her friend liked the flower bed and landscaping, keep asking me questions on where I got what and how much and told my W she would like to go to Wal-Mart to get some of those plants.

Well I know that I won't take love from my goddess for granted ever again. It is very true that my W is a genuine sweetheart. She gets that good kind of feed back from a lot of people including female co-workers. It has always been that way with all her jobs, I think that says a lot.

She is doing a good job of taken care of herself, I tell her things that I notice to support her and build her up, she seems to take it well.

I thought that her leaving was the worst thing to happen to me, but it turns out it was the best thing to happen cause it forced me to take a hard look at things and really focus on myself. If she had stayed I would have been a lot more lax, probably not try has hard, wouldn't have gained has much as I have. I actually think that all the these steps in the order they are going in is more Gods hands remolding our relationship. Things happen a certain way in a certain order for a reason.

Well I'm pretty certain that she has some self conflict. I think it does come across confusing for the old me and the new me, even the counselor said that it would be hard for her to understand how I could change so fast, but that is due to my personality type. She should become less confused as time goes on as long as I stay consistent in my change. I know that I have a lot to prove to her.

I have turned this over to God and he knows my heart, so I will let him guide me and continue to pray for us. I do know that my W is praying too.

There is a verse that says "All things are possible with God."

Good for you sooners... glad to hear you are happy with your changes. Yes we, WAS, do have self-conflict.

I 'put up with it' for 22 years what was one more day? Could have I done it 'one more day'? Well, that day, I could not.

Are there days I look at the changes both he & I have made and think "this would have been a REALLY good day, back then". But I do not want to go "back". And for my new standards of what I will accept for me in a R with anyone, there needs to be more.. as he said he is not enough, yet, nor am I.

Hopefully these changes can keep being consistent & regular, until they 'are you' with God's grace, love & support in your life.

Peace

Brigestone thanks for your support, hope that things work out for you too.

Update: So yesterday my W calls to see when we could catch up this week to do more car looking, we decided on Thurs. Anyhow I went to counseling yesterday explained my weekend with the W and he thought that I approached things and handled them very well. He says he is amazed at how fast I'm figuring things out, making good moves, but not being to strong. His encouragement helps me stay focused. Now my W always ask me how it went in which I reply that it went very well and that he is amazed. She ask me if I ask him many questions and I told her normally I don't have to many. She ask me if I ask him what to do? I could tell she was asking me this, cause it is what she wants to do with him, but doesn't know where to begin. She has told me that a lot of times her mind just goes blank. Also she has said that she is afraid to ask some questions because she will feel stupid, like she should already know these things. As she talked to me last night she started crying because she feels so lost on what to do. If she wasn't crying she was sniffling and back to crying. I listen to her and she says that people (not me) are trying to tell her things, but she feels like they are putting words into her mouth, telling her her thoughts and she thinks these people are wrong and just don't understand her. Says they see her in one way but she sees herself differently. When I talked to her she sniffled quietly but listened close. I made comments that supported her but I also said things to her that made her see that I understand her, how she felt, and where she was coming from. After talking to her I ask her if anyone else had told her these things and she said no. They haven't told her because they don't get her. Right now she has very and I mean very low confidence and self esteem. I did admit that part of that was my fault for not supporting her like I should have. I did tell her that she is a very strong woman. So she ask me "So what are my strong points?" She is really searching for a lot right now cause she is lost. I did tell her a couple things but she needed to get to bed since it was late. She did say thanks for talking to me. Since we have been apart for 2 months I haven't given her any cards, flowers, or anything of that nature. So here is my idea: I bought a card that is very supportive (without the love yous and mushiness) but just supportive. I want to make a good list of her strong points fold it up and put it in with the card. I was thinking I would give it to her in person tomorrow after we get back from car looking. I will say a pray and hope that she will take it well. I do feel like now might be the time to give her a card and do such a thing.

I do think the card will go over well.

She seems very interested in your counseling sessions. Maybe you could invite her along to one of them? Not to 'work' on her issues of self esteem, etc or to 'work' on the relationship - but to satisfy her curiosity of whats going on with you.

Of course, the 'hidden' aspect could be that she starts to participate in future sessions. But back to square one; innocently ask if she would like to tag along next time just to see how it works for you.


As far as what other people may be saying, thats the exact reason I have not confided in any of my friends about this entire saga of mine.

Friends have a tendency to want to make you feel 'better'. They hate to see you down and want to contribute to cheering you up. But they dont always tell you what you need to hear, rather, they try to tell you what they think you want to hear.

So if I wanted a lot of 'if she cant see what a great guy you are, screw the bitch!' I would have shared with my buddies. But thats not what I either wanted or needed to hear, so I avoided telling them anything about it.

Fact of the matter is, I needed a lot of improvements in my personality and my outlook in general. My friends would never tell me that

Energy, Thanks for taken the time and your reply.

Yeah I hope the card goes over well too.

Actually the last thing that I told the counselor was that I think the next step for us would be us coming to counseling together. The counselor thought so too and said that he could mention it to her to see what she thinks, told him that would be good if he could.

I do like your thought and approach on it though, cause I haven't looked at it like that.

As far as the friends and family advice I feel the same way that you stated.

I did read your post, does sound really good for you. It sounds like you have things in perspective and are making very thoughtful moves.

Has for you and myself both I think you're right in your observation on staying consistent and proving this to her over the long haul.

Hey Energy, just a fast update on yesterday the 13th. My W and I spent the afternoon car looking. We may have found one so we are going back today to further look. Earlier in the day she said that she wanted to talk to me. Anyway to get to the point once we got home I was sitting quietly and she ask why I was quiet. She then said you have questions about us, in which I replied yes. So the R talks begin. Now I try to be thoughtful and careful on what I say, but still try to get some points across. At one moment she said she was getting mad, so I paused then said, ok would you like to take few min break, she said yes. About 5-10 min she came back and said that after talking to the counselor she is suppose to make a pro and con list about me look at my past as compared to me now. So this is what she wanted to talk to me about: She said that we should take the next 2 months still apart, but that maybe would should start doing some dates here and there. I thought that was good. What bothers me is some of what I say seems to get through to her, but a lot times she tends to shut down and withdrawal. Thats why I'm careful, not pushy, and do my best not to pursue. She did say that we would have more R talks today, so I hope it goes well. Please give me your thoughts or any advice that you may have.

Once again updating my sitch and would like anyone's thoughts and or advice.

So yesterday we found and bought my W a car, she was very happy and appreciated me helping her out with the whole process. All day long we got along pretty well.

Fast forward: She left to go wash the car and see a friend but was coming back later cause we agreed to rent a movie. Things seem to be going ok at the time as we headed off to grab a movie. As we looked at movies, out of nowhere she mentioned that she might go to church tomorrow, that surprised me. We got our movies left and on our way back, since I was excited for her about the car I ask if she wanted to drop by our friends house to show them. Anyway we called ahead and they weren't home. Now keep in mind from my earlier post she mentioned us to start doing some dates. After she got off the phone with our friend I said "Hey I got an idea, maybe we could catch up with them sometime to go eat." She responded "Yeah" but she sounded hesitant. Immediately she says "I can't promise you anything."

It was from her that the R talks begin. She also says that when I say anything that contains WE or US in the sentence that it makes her feel like I am talking about the future to much, and that this is to much to fast. I am not intensionally trying to give her that idea or impression.

She continues to bring up the past and I have sincerely apologized to her several times. She does say that she can see good positive change and wants to she if I remain consistent. What frustrates me is we talk and I attempt to give her explanations to the questions that she ask she will get mad, shut down, and withdrawal. She is asking so I do my best, but when she pulls away like she always does I end up looking like the a$$ and I'm damned if do and damned if I don't. Also she made a comment to me that she was turned off to me, her being mad at the time, I wonder if that should fall under believe nothing you hear and half of what you see.

Since I have read DR I think that our approach to communicating about the R is not working and we need to find a new way to approach things. I just don't know what to do.

The past 2 months before this weekend I had backed way off. I didn't talk about us much or lead her on about the future even though I know what I want which is her back. It seems like she was starting to come around when I was more dark.

Oh yeah, we didn't get to our movie since we or I was trying to get a better understanding of her. She left less than mad, I told her that I didn't want to end the night on a bad note so I ask if I could give her a hug. She said she wasn't into the touchy feely stuff to much right now. So I ask if a hug were bad and she said no that would be ok. Then I ask her if the full body massage I gave her yesterday was bad and she said no that she appreciated that. So what she says about touchy feely and what she allows me to do just confuses the hell out me. We did hug at the end and she was more somewhat more calm, but a little upset, but said she just needed some time right now and that we would talk later. Well she is suppose to come by Mon. to give me a check for some bills and that we may talk then. I'm just kinda lost on what to do right now cause I don't want to backslide further and make things worse. I am wondering how to approach tomorrow.

Anyone feel free to through in your 2-cents!

Hi, you asked me to drop by your thread to offer any advice I might have. I did and wrote a long post and then something happened to it......must have deleted it accidently. So, I won't say everything I did the first time around and just go to the punch line...lol.

Glad you got into Church and renewed you R with God b/c that is the most important thing and being able to truly turn the M over to Him was probably the hardest. We have to do a check-up from time to time to be sure we have still "left" it with God and have not picked it back up to handle ourselves.

I think from everything you have described that your M has very much hope. I am not sure that she is a true WAW, but you must treat her as though she is. By not being a true WAW, I mean that most WAW's are not ready to start dating and making all the contacts and even being so agreeable to seeing different counselors like your wife has done. I may be wrong, but I don't necessarily think that all W's that S from their H's are the typical WAW....if that makes sense. Some have to leave b/c of abuse (which is not the case here) and some leave b/c they just need to get out of a bad situation, and some leave b/c they need time and space away from the spouse for a while. Let's face it, M is not always a bed of roses and we get on each other's nerves at times. If everyone was very honest, a little time apart from our spouses would probably make us appreciate each other a whole lot more than what we do. We start taking each other for granted or just don't treat each other as well as we should, etc. Now before I start getting letters telling me that I should not encourage couples to separate.....that is NOT what I am doing here. But, I kind of think maybe that is what your wife is needing.....just some time apart from you. You said yourself that you were controlling. No wife likes that! The S could turn into a permanent stitch and you don't want that to happen, so that is why you must treat her as though she truly is a WAW who wants a D.

Okay, so I am going to go back and reply to some statements you have posted:



This is very good and reinforces what I've just said about my reasons for thinking she is not a true WAW and just needs some time and space. I believe that she is hoping for things to work out but she is going to be watching to see if your changes "take" for good or if it is only a trick to get her back and then you will revert to your old ways. Therefore, you know those changes must be for life....not just to get her back again. Also, don't bring up the subject to her about your changes, just keep doing them for her to see.



See, she is wanting you to know that she does appreciate what you are doing and I think that shows a sign that she is hoping for a future with you if things continue to get better. This is her way of encouraging you (even though she isn't saying it) to continue to give her space and time.....it is working, so keep doing it.

Don't call her first. Don't email, text, or anything first. Wait for her b/c otherwise it is pursuing her and that is pressure on her and will push her away. You don't want that! I know a week without a phone call sucks, but it is very little compared to a lifetime of divorce.



You are separated. She left you......do you actually expect to hear ILY? If you play your cards right.....maybe in the furture, but don't expect to hear it for a long time, yet. You will set yourself up for disappointment.



Don't! The more you tell her you love her, miss her, and want her to come back home......the farther away you are sending her. Do you want that? No, I know you don't and I know how badly you want to express your love and to make up for what you have not done in the past that she needed from you, but now is not the time to be telling her this. You must trust us on this even if you can't understand it. If you've read Michelle's book, you will see what she says about all of this.



Again, you have to remind yourself that you are separated and this lady has said she wants a D from you! You are blessed that she has gone out with you at all! She does not have the same feelings that you are having at this time. She does not desire to give you affection!



Her calling you is a good sign, but you should not have brought up about a date and wait for her to bring it up or even hint about it. That was a clue when she said she didn't know. Next time, use the DB techniques about phone conversations. Stick to the subject at hand and be friendly but keep it short and sweet and then be sure that you are the first to say good-bye. Don't push for more. Again....pursuing!



Again.....you are separated! It has only been 8 weeks! What did you expect when you heard the word divorce come out of her mind? Apparently, you thought a few dates and ILY and she would be back home. Don't get frustrated friend.....you have a long way to go yet. Stay away from R talks. Wait for her to bring that up.



Whose idea was it for her to have a copy? If it was your idea.....that was not good b/c these are tools for YOU not her. The idea of her not wanting to read "self help books" is a sign of the WAW (I'm afraid) b/c they do not want to read anything along those lines......don't push her to do it.



You are making waaaaay too much out of this! She could have meant that in just a "friendly" sort of way, like, "I'll call ya".....but you are making it sound like a vow! Here is a prime example of you trying to control her and the stitch. She is free to do whatever she wants to do and there is nothing you can do about it.....remember you gave it over to the Lord, so get off your high horse here. It is not the same as a lie. People can forget, they can get distracted or tied up. Not a good PMA on your part.

Here is another example of you trying to control:



I know and she knows what you were really doing! You were fishing for information. Don't do that. You can't disguise it with a "laugh".

So, there you go.....fishing for more information and then you wanted proof! The request for photos. Yep, don't deny it.



If you had just told her you were very happy that she was wanting to get back into church and left it at that.....it would have been great. However, to go on to tell her that you would like to go with her......that was pursuing. I guess it must be hard for men to understand that it is pushing the W away when they do that. You must be very careful and let her do the suggesting or inviting you.



It's almost funny in a way how LBH's look at the clock and watch the minutes about everything their WAW does,when in the past they could have cared less. Again, try to be calm and relaxed and don't expect any more than what she has come there to do. Let her lead in any of the conversations. Don't ask her to stay or go somewhere to eat. You need to play a little hard to get. don't be quite so available for her whenever she needs something done. you said you felt like the only time she called was when she needed something from you, well......



As you said before, she may not have the support group that you do and you don't know what all God may be doing inside of her heart. You must give Him time to do His work in her. That takes patient b/c our time is not His time and our ways are not His ways. She is confused by your quick changes and it almost appears to her (example...the garden) that you are more happy without her than with her, which probably hurt her ego. Hopefully you explained that away.



Now...here is your clue!! She does feel very low. Yes, she does have low self esteem and she is looking for somebody to feed her ego. If YOU don't do it.....she will find another man to do it! That is exactly what I did. When she asked you to tell her more.....she was crying out for more ego food. So, be sure that you do that whenever you have an opportunity. Thank God that she is looking to you for it.



I know this is very frustrating for men. It is hard for women to put things that happen in the past.....in the past, where it belongs and turn lose of it. It was all these things that happen over a period of time that caused her to leave you and she is struggling with it. Men and women do not deal with their problems the same and they do not have the same thought process. That is why when she starts to get mad and shut down, you get frustrated and feel like an a$$.

As I said previously, she does not have the physical desire for you that you do her right now. Men look at the touchy-touchy stuff as a sign for sex (usually) where women don't necessarily look at it as that. If it is a soothing rub-down to help her relax....that is the way she sees it, whereas, you may see it as a build-up to more physical touching that may lead to sex. Stop pushing with the hugs and let her do them. Don't ask for any hugs or any physical touch.....that is a big turn-off for most women.

I have given way more than two cents worth, but I think if you will stop with the R talks for now, it will help a lot.

As for the counselors.....I have doubts in counsleors b/c so many of them have a document that they can get off the Internet and have no professional training in that field. The couple ends up having a battle scene in the couselor's office and then are told that a D is the only way to find happiness. Unless you get a pro-marriage counselor that is "solution based" to help you find a way to work the M out....I don't personally think her going with you to just any counselor will help.....might even make matters worse. However, if you have found one as I have described or even a Christian counselor......perhaps.

One thing for sure......if God is in it and you allow Him to be in control of this.....He can do more than any counselor. It is tough, but it could be a lot worse. She could have had another man and an affair. Thank God for the fact that she hasn't. There is still a lot going for you. If God be for us, who can be against us? Right? Right!

I know this was extremely long and I will try not to do that each time, but had to catch up.

Take care and God bless.
Sandi

Sandi, Thank you very much for taking the time to read my thread, I appreciate it very much.

Everything you said is exactly what I needed to hear. Your advice will definitely help me a lot. I well re-read this many times until it is burned into my memory. I do realize that I have made many mistakes with her since our S but your advice will help me correct and miss a lot of future mistakes.

One last thing if you don't mind I would appreciate it if you would continue to follow my thread and critique me where and whenever need be.

Once again thanks for you help, it is priceless!