Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums We're separated--What Now? Wandering Poster - Sweet 16?

(((((((((Jeff))))))))))

Your W makes me MAD! I can't imagine how hard it must be to be in this situation day in day out.


This makes my heart break for you. It's awful that things are so hard that her not hating you is something nice. I just wish she could see what we all see here......a HOT guy!

I like the plan of getting well first. I love that you're going to yoga and the Coke is gone! And that you're getting your health sorted out. You're motoring down a 180 highway! Next stop PMA-ville!

L.xx

Hey Jeff, wow, that was a revealing post, some things struck me, about the assumptions you are making (?) my friend has a big thing about how people make assumptions in Rs, so I'm going to see if I can help any at all here...hope you dont mind! First off..


Jeff, you said no BUTs !!! It shows a closed mind? Is that the point? In the Depression book I read its called the "Ah, but game" and is a classic thing that people with depression do.


I dont agree either, and maybe this C is not so good !? I wouldnt say it was "your" fault at all. Your W was trying to confront the issue by telling you and who knows, blame you maybe...did you talk about it with her at the time? I saw a documentary about women being unable to orgasm, their loving partners tried everything, but still nothing. I think that for some woman its about fear... of letting go. Do you think it could be linked to her controlling personality? Why do people try and control everything? (With woman it is typical to want to control the home environment, hence fixating on details of cleaning and laundry, thereby masking the real issues). With an O, you are out of control. I think you could be like Errol Flynn in the loverman stakes and she still wouldnt O Jeff. Have you read up on any of this? DID YOU TALK TO HER ABOUT IT ??


...well, she has you under control then! I guess you have a choice no matter what she says, so you could have chosen to go ahead and leave anyway, why didnt you?


I thought this was wierd at the time..an empty threat. If that were true, then why doesnt she leave? Whats keeping her there? Why does she want to stay in a loveless M with no physical intimacy? Is she afraid of change, of being alone, does she love you really but she has gotton so closed off and gnarled up over the years thats she cant show it?


Well this is a major assumption Jeff and you could be totally wrong on both counts. As an outsider whose never met your W, she sounds anything but happy. She sounds bitter to be honest. Bitter and unhappy and her soul is not signing, thats for sure. What makes you think she is content? Does she smile alot? Does she hum and sing to herself as she goes about her chores? Does she hug and play with the kids alot and laugh with them? (maybe she does, I'm asking you to prove it here!) Does she have a healthy loving R with you?

Or is she trapped in a Cold War at home? For christsakes, shes never had an O! I wouldnt be surprised if she was unhappy and unfulfilled !! That could be a huge disappointment for her or frustration. She may have given up on herself and its no wonder she refuses to sleep with you (its not about you though). I was amazed to read that you think she is content. I think Jack said she may be apathetic?

Plus... goes back to asking her, you said to me it was a good idea. Why dont you do it? What are you afraid of? Just go now, step away from the PC, say W....I was curious, are you happy?

So just saying, we all do it, I do it, you seem to be doing it, the only way to know how someone really feels, is to communicate with them. Unfortunately in yuour sitch, well as in lots of here, thats whats largely caused us to be here I would say - lack of communication. Instead of talking and finding solutions, people retreat, into themselves, into resentments, into an OP.

Jeff, I agree with Lisa, its a sad state of affairs that its a bonus your W doesnt hate you. She has a lot to answer for and a lot of work to do on herself and I imagine she would be very resistant to speaking to a C. Again, not about you or the M, but she has got to want to change, right? And embrace happiness.

But ( ) I think you just need to go ask her. (((((JEFF!))))

Ali xxxx

- I understand what you are saying, but....
i wish it would be "ands" not "buts". for me usually "buts" are telling that you feel the need to defend yourself, feel being judged in some way. "ands" would be more of a conversation where different doesn't mean right or wrong and would be evaluated by the premise of working or not working, applicable or not to your situation. so i gather my way of expressing my thoughts came about stronger than intended, please keep in mind that it was not
my intend.

- I think the first thing might be that the reason for going to the C was to get help with depression. That might explain the direction things have gone so far. The C quickly, and I would have to say correctly, figured that my relationship with W was at the root of the depression, in large part.
my understanding of the roots your depression is that it partly biological - you are predisposition by your biological make up (that's were ad, vit, exercise can help to a degree), partly by your reaction to situation you are in (this where cognitive-behavioral/solution-focused therapy works best). the difference between "my relationship with W was at the root of the depression" and "i have 50% responsibility in how r progressed" is that in second approach you do have control over what is your part is and it is right in your face and you can choose to do the same or change.

- Remember that I have not even been allow to touch W in more than 2 years, and have not ML for almost 3 and a half years.
no one can make you do anything - you have agreed to this

- W has told me that she has never liked sex, and never had an O. I took this as her telling me it wasn't my fault,

it would be speculation on my part but i would consider - if it is biological - sensory/tactile issues, some other organic mis function, or psychological - due to past abuse issues
(it does not have to be something major like full blown incest - even unwanted touching may have similar consequences), or due to cognitive issues (sex is dirty, or not suppose to be pleasurable, or some other beliefs)

- I took this as her telling me it wasn't my fault, C seemed to think it was much more likely a shot at me, since that would be my fault. I don't know if I agree, but she could be right.

it is all in interpretation. you can see it here clearly. and usually we have "mixed agendas" so it may be more than one meaning that we are relaying with one message. even if it was a shot - it is up to you to take it or not. if it was a shot then it usually happens when people feel attacked and need to defend them self.

- A few months ago I tried to direct a kiss to actually miss her cheek and hit her mouth. She compared that to attempting rape. Seriously.

it makes me really sad to hear that. not only that she draw that conclusion but because i do not hear anything about a conversation after between two of you which would help her to express why she felt that way and i do not hear that conversation happened of expressing your pain as well.

- A year ago, maybe a year and a half, W and I had a discussion where I got to the point of talking about leaving, though really pretty calmly. She "told" me that I couldn't leave while she was in school, and then told me that she didn't have time to work on our marriage.

it is not about your w "telling" you - it is about you agreeing to those conditions.

- About a month ago was the incident when the kids (10 and 13) were not working efficiently enough for her. And she told them that she had a job now, and she could leave.

it is not a parent-child conversation. if i were you i would address it in a way that for the sake of children to ask her to decide first between two of you and then relate it to the kids. her statement os also somewhat telling that she might feel really alone in the family and see kids as being on your side.

- Whenever we have a "discussion", there is really only one answer. If I agree with her right away, she asks if I really agree, or am I just saying it to shut her up. But, if I don't agree with her, we get to argue until I do. So, now I just agree, I have to admit even if I don't agree. But there is really no point in arguing, so it doesn't matter. Of course, that is the passive aggressive bit that the C said that the controlling personality often brings out.

for me what you c said is similar to say that passive aggressive breads controlling features. you know that r is like a dance. it is complimentary, just read your description. what i hear that it worked for you for all these years but now you are outgrowing this arrangement.

- If we actually get tot he point of working on the marriage, I am sure that we will get farther into my 50%.

i wish you would get into your 50 regardless of working on the marriage or not - it is about you and if you will not work on it now you'll ended up with the same predicament

- We did talk about how her reaction to being asked to see a C would be telling. If she doesn't want to work on the M, I don't think I am interested in waiting for her to want to.

seeing a counselor for herself may be different from seeing a counselor for your m. when person sees ic often means that they acknowledged they have issues they want to resolve which may not be where she is. altho both of you acknowledge that you have issues in your m.

- She seems content with her life as it is, she has her kids, a nice house, enough, if not plenty of money, and she can do whatever she want beyond that. I don't think she has any motivation to change.

if she mentioned leaving - she is thinking, she might have motivation to change altho may not in a direction you are would want

- My goal? First, to get myself well, so that I know I am giving my best.

what are the markers that will tell you where you are in the progression to the goal?

No, I don't mind!


Well played, Ali!
I think W was trying to make me feel better, actually. Not sure it worked!
I ABSOLUTELY think it is about control. I am convinced of it. I think the idea of being out of control of herself scares her to death! She has only mentioned this once, in 23 years. Though the signs that she didn't like sex were strong enough. Very infrequent, at best, and always hurry up and get finished. When we did have this conversation I said there were people that could help, she made it clear she wasn't interested.

One word answer? Kids. It was better to wait until the stress of school was done, and then see if she wanted to work on things.


I think it comes down to security. So, maybe fear. But, as long as she is married to me, she has her kids with her, a nice house, and at least some level of security in the long term, from retirement funds that would be cut in two if we D.


I don't think she is happy. I don't know if she has ever been happy. I don't know if she wants to be happy. Control, again, on that one. And I think she is bitter, both about things I have done, and about the way she sees herself. In hindsight she claims she wishes she had never stopped working when we had kids. I think she has really devalued what she has done. I never have, or at least I know that I have tried at every turn not to. She seems more interested in what "society" thinks than what I think. She does play with the kids quite a bit, and seems to enjoy her time with them. I have to admit that I am assuming a bit when I say she is content, as opposed to happy. She is usually a proactive person, and she isn't doing anything to change the situation, and hasn't for a long time.


You know, it may not be about me. At some level, I am sure it is not. There is a lot that is about me, too, I think.


It's a sure path to an R talk that I don't want to have. But I will be having it soon. I promise!


Communication, as usual, is at the root of it. So, we sent to Retrouvaille two years ago, where the whole point is a method of communication. We got home, and she immediately rejected it. She said (I don't remember the exact words) that communication wasn't the problem, that I needed to change.


I think the best chance of anything good happening is getting her to a C. I think her control issues will make that a real challenge. I don't feel that she wants to change. We shall see!


I know!

((((((((((Ali))))))))))

(((((Lisa)))))
Thanks! I feel like I am feeling better, a bit. It's so tricky to tell! But, I keep going!

I wasn't offended. I am frustrated, perhaps! I did get defensive, that's something I need to work on, so this was a good exercise! I posted all of those tidbits, since I figured there was a good chance you hadn't read through all 15 previous threads! Though they are good fun!


I have to think about this a bit more. I think I gave too much control of the R to W, and I have to figure out how to get it back.


I don't know that I agreed to it. I can do this, or one of us can leave. For now, I have chosen to do this, but I have not agreed to it.


It could be any of those, though I think it is another control issue. She made it clear when she brought this up that she wasn't interested in doing anything about it, so for now it doesn't matter.


I didn't take it as an attack, so if it was, it missed!


That was the essence of the conversation. To expand a little, when we went to Retrouvaille, I was able to express in one of the exercises how the lack of physical contact hurt me. So, she agreed to some kind of contact, like a hug, every day. Which she did once.


Like I told Ali, I did agree to that, at the time. It was the right thing to do for the kids.


I think she does feel alone. Though the youngest, especially, thinks she walks on water. She has said she feels like she doesn't belong here. I think she has done it to herself. I was too surprised to react at the time. If it happens again, I will be ready.


Hmmm, this is an interesting thought.


I am trying to do this, starting by getting myself together so that I can give my best.


I think she needs to see a C for herself. I think the way to encourage that to happen is to get her to see one for me, rather than the marriage. We'll see how that works out!


Perhaps so. She hasn't mentioned it in a while. I think maybe because she realizes that I would not fight it. It think that her previous threats were a means of trying to control things, and I have taken that away.


First step is to feel more energy, and get back to doing things I want to do!

((((((Firekeeper))))))

Thank you! I'm glad you found my thread!

Okay - let me preface this by saying, your wife obviously has serious issues and a lot of this is about her. BUT - what exactly does she feel you need to change?

After all, the only thing we really have control over is ourselves. And most of us find that personal growth and change is the key to DBing. And frankly, when one partner changes, the dynamic has to change.

So - what exactly does she feel you need to change? What needs of HERS are you not meeting? (We already know she's not meeting your need for physical touch, and i'm sorry for that). An excellent book to read on this subject is Chapman's Five Love Languages. You may feel you've been expressing your love to her all along, but if it hasn;t been in her "love language", she may not be hearing you, and may be feeling as unloved as you do at the moment.

Finally - I hear and feel your pain, I really do. But just consider that, if it is possible to keep a civil home, it may truly be better for your kids for you to wait a few years before divorcing, if it comes to that.

Ellie

(((((Ellie)))))
Welcome, I don't think you've posted on my thread before!

I think the biggest issue she has is that I don't follow up as well as she would like on household chores. Our standards for some things are different, I don't think mine are all that low, but they are lower than her's. I know that I do more than she seems to think, and really, the more I do, the higher the bar has been raised. Which leads to me giving up. Kind of a vicious cirlce.

I've got the 5LL, I've tried to figure her's out. The only one that seems to apply is AOS, but it has to be the acts she chooses, other acts are rejected. I've sort of decided her LL is "leave me the heck alone!"

I argue with myself all the time, as far as whether it is better for the kids if we D or if we don't. It's not like we are setting a great example, but we are both here. I don't think I have years in me if nothing changes, it has already been years. It won't be something that's taken lightly, that's for sure!

This afternoon we will be celebrating S18's graduation from high school. He a couple of his friends actually finished high school by homeschooling, for various reasons. They've all been taking classes at the local community college. Anyone, one of the moms has organized a celebration/ceremony at a park this afternoon. It should be fun!

Wow Jeff,

I am glad you got all these people on your side here. I can't really think of anything to add. I am glad you finally decided to take the hard way and let us more in your life and sitch.

Sometimes we think things over alone and we get stuck to the same conclusions. When we share with others we get to see other options exist.

The picture I get from everything you say is that you both at a point gave up on your R. And it seems she can take it longer than you can. You are fed up with this state but she seems to be able to continue for longer. For whatever reasons (kids etc) you accepted the terms of the R and now you can't be living like this anymore. She may have set a time limit (when school finishes, when kids are grown up) and come to you with a decision which she has made years ago. I can't believe she wants to stay like this forever.

What you are doing now, should aim to first make her think. I insist that you try different approaches to things that you would like to be different, express what you want even if you believe you will get a negative answer.

I wish you happy time at the park today
Love
K