Divorcebusting.com Forums Divorcebusting.com Archives Surviving the Big D Archives God, Booze, Drugs, Pain & Divorce

Chaz,

That really sucks..... Your exW truly showed her lack of character there..... Not only that, she demonstrated a lack of basic human compassion..... I think you are better off without a woman like her......

As for "changing" your exW's mind, it was NOT your place.... She freely took her wedding vows.... She should have had the balls to tell you there were problems AND work through the issues..... She NEEDED to be a grown up....

As for DBing working.... How do you define "working?" If your spouse is out f#c%ing around and comes back...... That is NOT success to me.... You "won" a cheating spouse... No REAL prize to me...... I would rather shuffle the deck and choose a new mate....

It is great you are in a much better place.... God has shown both of us how He can rebuild our lives better than ever.....

Take Care,

NMD

Wow Donna.... sistah... brutal honesty! Thanks for that.

I too wonder if I would have wallowed in whatever spiritually had I not gone through what I feel was complete crisis. It really caused me to seek what I feel is genuine experiences rather than hype and culture that frankly I was so lost in. I suppose because of the comfort that comes with familiarity.

Also, the tithe thing. I am a deep, deep believer in giving. I am not sure however how it is to be done other than our best. I too was brought up with a emphasis on tithing. Mainly by those who were frankly most in a position to benefit from it. Dont get me wrong, I have also seen the opposite of it where a capable congregation ignores the blatant material needs of their minister and/or fellow members.

I have found great peace in the "Seventh Tradition" of alcoholics anonymous.... "We are self-supporting through our own contributions .... declining outside contributions". Basically AA is exclusively self-supported. We do not even accept free donations from family members of members. My wife cannot contribute other than helping me set up chairs. It is by the people for the people it serves. Period.

The maximum bequest (willed amount at death) a member can leave to AA is $2,000. Why? Well we keep financial gain, positions, and prestige at absolute minimums so we do not divert from our primary purpose.... "to carry the message to the alcoholic who still suffers".

Many churches in my experience are self-deceived in their efforts to raise and manage money and carrying the message. Our method is so much less complicated. Yet in my city alone, there are over 100 AA meetings per day... probably 150. Yet nobody is paid to put them on and no requirement to give. Pretty stark contrast.

I am thrilled that you found what is working for you. Keep it going. Thanks for your reply to my thread.

Ciao.

Chazz

I'm with ya cat!

Kimmie... I think Swimmer puts it well. In actual percentages, DBing may not work a ton... but it is a huge increase over the virtual nil turnaournd rate wheren no efforts are applied.

Furthermore, I applaud people like Michelle, Dr. Phil, Dr. Laura and others that try to shake up and shake off our divorce culture because it is killing us. I believe we as a society are in danger of imploding.

The DB percentage results may be only a small first step. Hopefully part of a turning tide. I know I want my kids to have a chance at a great and happy lifelong marriage.

Thanks for participating in the thread.

Ciao.

Chazz

Swimmer.... insightful as always.

You bring out some fabulous points. One of which is the commeraderie in advsersity. I have become close at different times to individuals and groups while in adversity. I worked for a company that treated its staff poorly and we individual staff members became very close and brotherly.

Also, in the "Recovery" community of which I am a part.... we get very close when any or all of us are in crisis. After our lives level out.... we are less close and frankly, even engage in more common human relational dynamics like gossip, envy, positioning, and other manifiestations of selfishness.

I suppose when the bullets are flying (whether literally or figuratively), there is little time to be petty, selfish, jealous, etc. We need our community and a certain unification of effort in our struggle in order to mutually survive. Once basic survival is achieved.... then I suppose we move on to other things like personal gain.

We, the human race, are a pretty shallow bunch are we not? As you mention, the Muslims you have experienced may very well be much the same in their organizational behaviour.

Again I re-state my fondness and respect for the 12 Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous. They are hard-won lessons on how a group of people can interract together and minimize the "wolf effect". We do this by keeping our purpose single and simple.

It is far from perfect. Lots of wolves sneak in. But it has worked successfully since 1939 such that it has spread the fellowships of AA, NA, Alanon, NarAnon, Alateen, OverEaters Anonymous, and many, many other fellowships around the world in abundance. Run only by the people it serves for the people it serves.

So for now I am conent and refreshed with this fellowship the way it is.

We could probably share a million stories mutually about people infriltrating church groups for financial gain, relationships, etc, etc. We do see that in my fellowship as well. Fortunately, the consequence of error is much higher in the recovery community (relapse = death.... in many cases) so we do tend to be protective of such things.

Thanks again for contributing to the thread.

Ciao.

Chazz

Dodo.... hommes.... do I detect an edge toward our exes in your reply?

Good point about freely making vows and freeling breaking them. In retrospect, I can agree that it was not my place to change my ex or make her do this or that. At the time, the pain-motivated desparation took over and it was all I could see to do.

Another thing I also believe was a factor was some of the church teaching I had that said I could change anything by faith. I believed that then. I certainly do not now. The church cultural teaching I was conditioned by stated this so firmly.... even in the face of total evidence to the contrary.

Yet the Bible teaches that "hope deferred makes the heart sick". Amen to that Brother! Never mind sick, it makes the heart die and want to die. Then when I didnt get what I was standing in faith for.... the teachings I learned told me I was inadequate in my faith and worth. No wonder picking up drugs was so simple by that stage.

Man... I was standing and standing and standing for the healing of my marriage... and it only got worse! When all of those expecattions did not materialize... I snapped. Not only did I lost my wife, but she starts running around with a friend of mine.... entertaining him in the house we built together for our kids... limits my access to the kids (this was pre-drugs btw)... then ends up marrying him. I think it would be more wierd if someone didnt snap over something like that. Wars have been fought between nations over lesser circumstances.

However.... I think I have proven to myself if nobody else... that these experiences can be endured and overcome. Which brings me full-circle to my original point.... I endured and overcame mainly with the help of fellowships like these message boards and my fellowship in AA. My church experience just left me feeling like sh!t. yet I am sure this is what neither God nor most Christians intended. It just seems to have gone there.

Thanks for the ongoing dialogue.

Ciao.

Chazz

Chaz,

I feel like there needs to be a "new" model for Christian churches. I feel like the sing, sermon, offering and dash is not good. It seems like we should be gathering together, breaking into small groups, talking about what is going on in our lives and praying for those needs....... I think we, as Christians, are disconnected from each other by a flawed design.....

Take Care,

NMD

Good grief Gert!! I come here after being away for what seems half a lifetime and who do I see?

Chazz, I must admit, I didn't read everything here with the intensity I ought. But I can certainly understand your views on the church. I didn't have half the experiences you have had, was raised Catholic, educated in Catholic elementary and high schools, attended a Lutheran college, and never really got into it beyond professing to be a "reformed" Catholic and paying homage to St. Pillow every Sunday morning.

I don't know...maybe the "group think/group speak" thing never influenced me. I do know some very religious or very spiritual people, but you know what...they usually aren't the type that preach eternal damnation or give you black and white sermons either.

And I have to admit, I'd never make a good alcoholic cause I hit the floor after a couple drinks. I like a good wine now and again, but the older I get, the less I can tolerate booze LOL. I don't like hangovers. But you know, addictions (any of them...behavioral, substance, etc.) really are a sign of covering up some pain or loss that we can't face. There is such a familial pattern to them, that I really do think that any addiction is a big spiritual hole inside of us.

One thing I do see is that the whole idea of "judgement" is pervasive throughout organized religion. It's one thing to live as moral of a person as possible...a good thing. But so many times this flawed church and its members take on the duty of God, judge, and jury. That is a very difficult thing to deal with especially while grasping with issues like addictions, divorce, broken families. Condemning someone through moralistic judgements when they are at their weakest just doesn't help.

I think I probably have just as many questions as you, and often wonder why humans have to take the negative side of things--"thou shalt not"--instead of looking at some of the more positive aspects of spirituality and religion--"you are made in the image of God." (And isn't that one of the basis of the first book, Genesis?) Humans by their nature are imperfect; yet, why do we persist on emphasizing and strengthening our weaknesses by criticism and condemnation instead of building each other up?

Never did get that. It's why I call it "reformed Catholicsm" LOL.

I think very much like NMD.

All I can say is...life is good. I had a very wise life coach a few years back who encouraged me to always look at things from as many different angles as possible and to stop the black/white thinking. So often, we do attract what is inside of us. If you're feeling low and down about yourself, you will attract someone who's going to eventually pick that up about you and will beat you down further. So...what's good about you? What's good with what you're doing? If you can't find it...do something better!!

Good to know you're still around!

Dodo... my feelings exactly.

I ponder why it is that the modern church format has evolved such that it is. Your discription is a close parallel to buying and ingesting fast food and then carrying on with what is really important to us in our lives.

I am not sure of all of the dynamics that make mainstream church format unappealing to me, but I am certain that factors such as selfish motives by "leaders" and "members" are a part of it. I feel the church organization I have experienced is just another commercial enterprise on one hand or an unhealthy social organization on another hand.

All I can say for sure is that it no longer appeals to me. The fellowship in which I attend has a tradition that it based on "Attraction rather than Promotion". Such cannot be said for the church as I have experienced it. It is not a criticism of God. I just am not comfortable with what many of the people who claim to be His people do.

Will see where it all goes! This is not the first time in history people have been uncomfortable with their church experience.

Ciao.

Chazz

Keyz... great to bump into you again. I too had been away for a while and popped in... ended up posting and here we are.

The item you mention above I feel is a key part of why I have found my church experience uncomfortable. Which brings up an interesting experience that happened yesterday.

My wonderful duaghter age 14, as we were having dinner just the two of us told me that a friend of hers has come to her to tell her that the friends father has had an affair and doesnt know what to do about it. My daughter asked me what she should do to help her friend.

My response to here was mainly that there was not a lot she HAD TO do. And I gave her my take which included suggestings that included my daughter keeping focused on just being a friend to her friend, not feeling she needed to solve or control anything, suggesting she find outside help with a trusted adult or perhaps her doctor could suggest someone. I emphasized that at 14 neither my daughter or the friend were responsible for the adults.

I further suggested that perhaps she could talk to her friend about what she specifically feels is bothering her like disappointment with her Dad, fear of her family breaking up, embarrassment, etc. Then not offer answers but simply share her own experience, strength and hope of how she got through the tough time in her life when her family was going through a challenge.

My point? In my church experience, we had been encouraged to direct, control, and "help" people who were in problems (aka: play God). We were encouraged to provide anwers, after all, we were The Church. Yet the theme of my entire post here was that The Church has proven to me to be ineffective in addressing such issues. Maybe it is not their place to and all they really need to do is point people in the right direction when such complex issues come up. I honeslty don't know.

I was just concerned that my daughter and her friend may take on too much responsiblity for "fixing" the problem or the people affected by it.

I further encouraged my daughter to act in simple honesty and to be authentic. If you don't know something just say so. Not having answers does not mean you don't care and does not mean you cannot as a friend help the other person seek answers. This differs from my church experience where we were encouraged to be purveyors of truth.... even if we didnt have it....we should come up with something that sounded spiritual.

So ya.... I feel the church, as Dr. Phil puts it, needs to "Get Real!".

Great to see you back on the boards. Thanks for your post.

Ciao.

Chazz