We've hit a roadblock and I would appreciate any input. Last week, we watched one of the videos our MC gave us. It seemed to be hitting some important issues for H. Afterwards, he talked for quite awhile about how terrifying it is to feel vulnerable. He described going into extreme "fight or flight" mode when we get to uncomfortable issues in R talks, arguements, etc. He said that the whole time he's in session with his C or our MC, he feels like he's gonna thr ow up the whole time! He doesn't eat the whole day prior to a counseling session because of this reaction.
OK, I get it...many men have an real fear of vulnerability...so they put tons of energy into keeping up an illusion that they are invulnerable and not RULED BY FEAR!
This explains quite a bit...like how our arguements never seem to be anything beyond me (oh-so-carefully and uncritically) saying "I feel like this about such and such"--then he grunts and shuts down. Sometimes he may actually say, "I understand" before he grunts and shuts down, but that's as far as we get in trying to resolve most conflicts!
Now, I know that H is insecure in many ways. He's getting better about telling me about those insecurities and I'm doing a better job at assuring and reassuring him in those areas.
I have my own insecuries...ESPECIALLY now after his A! In the DR book, Chapter 10 discusses the importance of communicating my hurt and anger when it comes up and giving my partner the opportunity to reassure me. Quote: "Reassurance is an important part of the healing".
Problem is: I gently explain my worries and doubts. I even give H "cue cards". "Honey, what I would really like to hear is......A, B, C, D. Any or all of those things would be a big help."
But he grunts and shuts down and stares at the floor, looking sad and miserable. He calls me from work the next day and says, "I understand how you feel".
OK--but what about A, B, C and/or D????!!!! No reassurance. feel like this has been a serious problem in our relationship for many years and I am left feeling emotionally starved by it.
This is a guy who spent years of his life seeking out adrenaline-junkie activities, but shuts down in "fear" that he might feel or express and emotion?????
Any guys out there that could give me some perspective on this behavior?
Haven't posted for awhile. It's been a tough couple of weeks. I've had a scare with a finding in a mamogram that required more tests. I've gotten a semi-reassuring explination from a specialist: "It's most likely a cyst, but we want to watch carefully". I'm thinking about getting a second opinion as I'm not sure I feel comfortable risking my life on a Dr's "probably" and "most likely" half-baked explinations.
H and I still separated. He was worried about the mamogram scare. The whole thing had me rattled too. At one point, I outright asked for reassurances from H, but he just looks at his shoes. Tells me several times during phone calls, "we'll talk" but when I see him...we don't talk...just avoid that I've asked difficult questions and asked for reassurance and get no response but a very sad expression on h's face.
H wasn't able to go to the last MC session, so I went by myself. I told her my perspective...that H & I have a basically good relationship based on friendship and respect. I described a very destructive pattern that we do though: I reach out to H to connect or to ask for reassurance when I'm feeling insecure. H, being terrified of vulnerability, freaks out about intimacy issues so shuts down and plays "Stone Man". I get no response or an inappropriate response ("I must love you, I'm still here, aren't I?") I feel exposed & humiliated for having been open about my needs and insecurities. I roll up into a ball & play porcupine--putting up my guard and throwing out quills.
End result: both feel misunderstood, hurt, angry....and lonely.
MC was glad to get this information. She's been working at getting a good picture of who we are and what we do. She seems to be formulating ideas about how to work on our "Stone Man and Porcupine Woman" problem.
I've been backing off recently and trying to project PMA. I will have to bring my doubts and insecurities here for now as addressing them with H just backfires and makes me feel worse.
Positive things from this last week:
1. We've been gathering camping gear and looking for good camping sites. This tells me that H wants to get away from everything & spend time with me.
2. He liked the Beta (Siamese Fighting Fish) for Fathers' Day. He had gotten me one for Mothers' Day and had mentioned that he'd like to get one too. He said when comes home--we'll put them (the fish) next to each other. This is as close as H gets to reassuring me that our separation is temporary and he does intend to come home. Not as specific as I'd like, but could be much worse...he could still be waffling about deciding whether or not he wants our R!
3. Told him about problems our oldest son is having with his R. Short version: he was placing all kinds of conditions and goals that had to be achieved before marrying his sweetie. He was ignoring her emotional needs and she felt neglected. She began an online EA and was making plans to leave to go be with internet guy. Son found out, confronted, gave an ultimatim. Son admitted to ways he had been neglecting her and making her feel insecure. They decided to work on their R.
H said he could relate to Son's admissions of his part of the problem. Said now that he knows how he's made me feel all these years, he's surprised that I wasn't the one to have an A.
I told him I had learned to live with his Stone Man routine, but that I'd always been committed and would never consider cheating on him.
I'm glad that H is really looking at things he's been doing that were putting me in WAW mode, even though he's the one that had the A.
4. H is starting to realize that things I say and do that he's been interpreting as "controlling" are just me feeling insecure and afraid. This perspective helps him have compassion instead of getting angry and going on the defensive.
5. H said he'd "try" to learn to give me reassurance when I ask for it directly. I told him I'd try to help him learn that language, and that he'd find it well worth the effort and really like the results!
I said that maybe he'd start learing to ask same from me so I can address his needs too.
Last week, I was cooking dinner and listening to TV youngest son had left on his TV on and Dr. Phil was on. I stopped cooking to go watch because I heard this couple that sounded SO MUCH like H & I!
Wife would tell Husband, "I love you". Husband would say, "Uh-huh". Wife would ask, "Do you love me?" Husband would tell here that he'd keep coming home every night as long as his tools were still in their garage. Another Stone Man!
Dr. Phil told Husband that his reluctance to be vulnerable and his putting up a "strong, invulnerable act" was immature and that he was emotionally starving his wife. Dr. Phil said an emotionally starved wife was like a lion in the jungle. A well-fed lion is content and won't mess with you even if you walk right by it. A hungry lion will chase you down. If you can make it to your car, it will chase down your can, roll down the window, pull you out and EAT YOU!
Dr. Phil talked about how he'd almost lost his wife because of this same behavior and that he'd had to reevaluate what it meant to be a strong man if he wanted to save his marraige.
I called up my H and told him the whole Dr. Phil thing. We were laughing about me definately being a hungry lion.
>>Hungry Lion Woman tries to pull Stone Man out of car window and bite him. Hungry Lion Woman breaks front tooth on Stone Man. Hungry Lion Woman still hungry and now has a toothache!<<
This week is/would be our "annaversary" that we have always celebrated as when we got together.
I don't know what to do. It doesn't seem to be right to celebrate..as we are now separated but "piecing". The whole issue makes me really sad and feel like I'm still being kept in limbo. H says he's coming home "soon", but never gets more specific than that and feels pressured if I ask what he's basing his decisions on or when he'll decide and let me know.
I never thought we'd be in this situation. I tried to ask what he felt about this annaversay, and he said he didn't know as the last few years, it had seemed like something I didn't care about anymore. He said last year, I had forgotten about our annaversay.
I wanted to say "HEY--THAT'S NOT FAIR...I didn't forget! A month or two before, he had mentioned that we had an annaversary coming up and I had said, "Oh yeah, we do!" That doesn't mean I forgot!!!
I bit my tounge and calmly said, "I cared alot. I'm sorry you didn't know that."
I don't know what the heck to do now. H is still in MLC and often negatively interprets what I say and do. If I get a mushy card or write a love letter he might interpret that as me "pressuring him". If I underplay the annaversary, he'll probably get mad and interpret it as more evidence that I don't care enough.
This feels like a NO WIN situation and I'm struggling with my own sadness at how the heck to even celebrate an anaversary of being together when we are NOT together.
I was thinking on my way to work this morning about what a weird alien my H has become. Something in the Mid-Life Crisis Board came to mind about a stage where they seem to have multiple personalities. That sure fits what I've been seeing for awhile now.
Somedays he's stubborn, inflexible and condescending (we jokingly call it being possessed by the evil spirit of his father--somebody throw me some holy water!)
Most days he's like a rebelious 16 year old. I have raised 3 boys and feel like I've got another on my hands now. I can't believe the immaturity and self-absorbtion that goes with this personality fragment sometimes. I know he's in this stage when I mistakenly try to relate to him like the (almost 50 year old) man that he is and get some version of "you're the mom from hell and you can't tell me what to do" cuz I just asked him to take out the garbage while I make dinner. Geez...I almost expect him to start asking for an allowance for asking him to do chores. The worst part of the teenager part is the way he judges me so harshly and critically. EVERYTHING I do is interpreted as "controlling".
If I show any emotion....I am controlling If I ask for anything...I am controlling If I don't show any emotion...I'm neglecting him If I don't honor his requests...I don't care about him
Ain't no way to win in that roulette game....
The other day I asked how long he'd be working extra Wednesdays (usually a night off for him). I was having an internal struggle with the fact that the XOW works that night and but didn't want to bring up that issue and I was trying to NOT show that it bothered me. Well--he tells me that my BODY LANGUAGE IS CONTROLLING! Huh????? How does one have "controlling body language"? Did he have a moment of compassion and stop to think that maybe it's difficult for me to have to be so understanding about him working with XOW??? No--cuz I'm a mean mommy who has "controlling body language" and he's 16 and is entitled to take XOW to the Prom if he damn well wants to!
Once in awhile--more and more lately--I see the personality of the man I fell in love with and still love dearly. That man is kind, considerate, empathetic, and very easily hurt by any harshness on my part. That personality is very confused about his own behaviour and wracked with shame and guilt over how it has affected me. I try to remember that that man is inside there somewhere when he's acting like he's 16 or possessed by the evil spirit of his father.
I wonder if he will be so patient and understanding when I am going through my change-of-life in about 10 years?
Just venting folk--and I so much appreciate having a place to vent safely.
Dispite all of my venting in the last post--I heard some very good stuff from my H this morning. He called to make sure I'd gotten up early enough to drop S16 off at his sports camp. (Very considerate of him to do).
Out of the blue H said, "I miss you, babe".
I nearly fell out of my chair. Five months of separation--he misses me. And now I am "babe" again? I think it's been 2 years (literally) since he called me that!
As if that wasn't enough to shock and befuddle me, he went on to say that he enjoys the time we spend together now, even when we talk about the difficult stuff...because he knows we have to "go there".
OK, at this point I'm ready to call 911 for the electro-shocky paddle thingys they use to restart people's hearts!
Could it be possible that the end result of this mid-life crisis crap will be that my H will have some new personality that I don't know yet? One that remembers what it's like not to dislike everything I say or do? One that behaves more mature? One that is more emotionally available? One that doesn't avoid communication, intimacy, and conflict at ANY COST???
Who was that masked man? Can a severly stoic, near-50 year old Native American male play the part of Lone Ranger anyway?
Yeah, he'll probably be back to Stone Man or Evil Father Guy or Belligerant 16-year old Guy tomorrow...but I'm gonna enjoy this new good stuff while it lasts.
If I can believe that there is the possibility for improvement at the end of MLC, it would sure do a lot to keep up the PMA through the lousy days.
In the end, could it be possible that I will want to write the XOW a "Thank You" card? Don't think Hallmark has one of those either. What would that look like? hmmmmmm
Welcome to piecing, sorry I haven't been by before!
So much stuff! I just LOVE the idea of setting up R talk time. That's just what our M needs. We've kind of let that "slide" since our MC decided we didn't need to see her anymore ( ) two visits after I revealed that my H had been lying AGAIN for the previous 3 months and was still in touch with OW.
I think your techniques are excellent. I love the idea of GIVING him the words to reassure you, but like you, I've had that backfire, or just not work out as I'd planned.
I ASK for physical affection...I want a hug and a kiss right then! He says "I'll WORK on that!" Huh? Wha...????
Your sitch, over all really does sound hopeful. He called you Babe! (Kind of a sore spot for me as that what H and I called each other...and then what he called OW too ).
I can barely remember all the things I wanted to post to you, it must be getting late...yup, nearly 2 a.m. my time.
I'll be sure to check on you in the future. Check out my thread (my previous on is on p2 here, I was too lazy to link it up ) as you'll see some similarities. Particularly about the A, asking ?'s about the A, the INCREDIBLE lies (my head still spins when I think about them...who was that guy????).
Hi Shineybear. Thanks for your input. I'd like to hear more after you get some sleep and I'll be sure to stop by your thread (right now I have to drop off S16 at sports camp, go to work, then MC session and dinner this evening).
Yeah--so much stuff. I get exhausted with it all, but that's family life and I wouldn't trade it for being single and childless.
I don't know if you caught what I said about our oldest S(24) having problems in his relationship. H and I have always talked about feeling inadequate as parents because we didn't have much in the way of good role models from our parents. Sometimes, when befuddled, we just do the opposite of what our parents would have done and that parenting style has done wonders.
When H and I first agreed to try to reconcile, I told him that the boys are still VERY angry with him and he would have to work on healing with them later. I also told him that the boys are watching us very closely now. How we handle this situation will give them skills for how to deal with their relationships as adults when they or their partner really F up.
I didn't expect to see it come around so quickly. I think it's very cool how S24 handled his situation. He knew something was wrong, but his gfriend wouldn't talk about it. He installed some software on their computer, then confronted gfriend in a calm way. He told her that he wanted to work on their problems, owned up to his part of things, then gave her the choice to leave or stay to try to work on thier R. Gfriend waffled a bit, but chose to stay, as S24 was being very sincere. Now, S24 tells me that he neglected gfriend emotionally and made her feel very insecure because he wasn't making any real commitments to her. I'm so proud of him!
I think that before all this happened with H and I, S24 would have just gotten bitter and kicked gfriend out without even trying to reconcile.
I have figured out that there has to be some flexibility to the DBing. Scheduling R talks has been one that we needed to do. I probably broke every rule in the "book" when I first found out about H cheating then saying he wanted out. I flipped out and I have to admit...some of that behaviour is common in my culture. I've heard similar things about how dangerous filipino women can be when cheated on and I think there are some real similarities.
However....H had really come to the conclusion that I didn't love him, didn't even like him, probably just kept him around for a second income, blah, blah, blah.
If I had not freaked out in a big way, not pursued, not fought for our R, tried to just "go dark" and "be his friend", he would be gone now, still convinced that I didn't love him and that the R was dead.
Over the last year or two, I had been thinking the same thing: he's cold and withdrawn, doesn't love me anymore, says "nothing is wrong" when I try to get him to talk to me.
I still can't believe two intelligent adults who love each other could get to that place. Our MC says we're trying to make it all too complex. The facts are that we both need a great deal of reasurrance from each other, but don't know how to ask for it or give it very well. Yeah, I can THINK about how lucky I feel to have him in my life, how he makes me laugh, how I am always amazed at the way I feel pulled toward him as though gravity operates laterally, the way I love his goofy smile, the way the sound of his voice soothes me (I could go on and on) but expressing those things to H is nearly impossible.
When I try to ask for comfort or reassurance from H, he seems to hear that I'm saying that I'm not satisfied with him or that I'm trying to control him.
Both wanting the same thing--not knowing how to ask, not knowing how to express. This has got to stop!
So we're realizing that we're going to have to break even more dysfunctional patterns that have been going on for generations. We're going to have to go back to kindergarten, learn a new language, be brave, trust each other, have compassion for each other while we stumble and fall over and over again, trying to learn a new skill: how to love each other well.
Quoting talitsa: I still can't believe two intelligent adults who love each other could get to that place. Our MC says we're trying to make it all too complex. The facts are that we both need a great deal of reasurrance from each other, but don't know how to ask for it or give it very well. Yeah, I can THINK about how lucky I feel to have him in my life, how he makes me laugh, how I am always amazed at the way I feel pulled toward him as though gravity operates laterally, the way I love his goofy smile, the way the sound of his voice soothes me (I could go on and on) but expressing those things to H is nearly impossible.
When I try to ask for comfort or reassurance from H, he seems to hear that I'm saying that I'm not satisfied with him or that I'm trying to control him.
Both wanting the same thing--not knowing how to ask, not knowing how to express. This has got to stop!
So we're realizing that we're going to have to break even more dysfunctional patterns that have been going on for generations. We're going to have to go back to kindergarten, learn a new language, be brave, trust each other, have compassion for each other while we stumble and fall over and over again, trying to learn a new skill: how to love each other well.
Talitsa -- Your posts often amaze me -- I feel like you are writing about my m! It appears that you and your h. share many of the same traits as me and my h.
For me, my initial DB'ing also had to be about showing h. how much I still wanted our R. I think that WAS a 180 for me in so many ways -- like you, my h. had decided that I didn't love him...and I had decided that he was incapable of loving me. His a. and the subsequent db'ing were a wake up call for both of us, I think...I've enjoyed our r. more in the last 3 months than I have ever.
Unfortunately, I'm still plagued with insecurity about ow -- and things exploded the other day Now I'm not sure WHAT to do...and there's no MC in our sitch to help guide the way...
would you mind stopping by my thread and giving some advice? I'd really appreciate it.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
) two visits after I revealed that my H had been lying AGAIN for the previous 3 months and was still in touch with OW.
) as you'll see some similarities. Particularly about the A, asking ?'s about the A, the INCREDIBLE lies (my head still spins when I think about them...who was that guy????).