Sage - You are sweet, thank you. Funny that you should write, this morning. Maybe you are psychic. Because the subject we've been discussing just came up this morning.
First, a little background (which I'm not sure is really relevant; somehow it seems that it might be). Because I have a long commute to south of Los Angeles, I have arranged a 4 day schedule (long days) at work to avoid some of the traffic. My W, a nurse, typically works two 12 hours shifts a week. Today was her first day back after being off for about 7 weeks, and I'm home today. She had been off to have breast lift and augmentation surgery, and their were some minor complications, which kept her off work (but which conveniently left her more time for the A). The breast thing was totally her idea, and I was happy to go along with it because I knew she really wanted it, in spite of the cost and the fact that I was happy with her the way she was. Later, after she told me she was unhappy with our M, but before I knew about the A, I thought it maybe had to do with a MLC.
Last night was actually quite good. I stayed away from R talk, except to ask her if it was OK if I made an appointment today for us to see a MC when I get back from Japan. She grudgingly agreed. But other than that, it was good, and we spent an hour or so in bed talking about the events of the day, and did a lot of laughing.
This morning, she got up to get ready, and while she was in the shower, I checked her cellphone. Last night, she had made a run to the grocery store and was gone just a little too long (you know what I mean). Her cellphone indicated that all of the call lists (who called, who was called) had been erased. Since I had called her early last evening, I knew that she had erased the lists last night, and she would typically not do this.
I confronted her when she got out of the shower. At first she tried to deny it, saying that I already had access to her cellphone bill. But I knew their strategy had been for him to call her (incoming telephone numbers do not show up on the bill), and that she would probably call him from some pay phone.
I demanded the truth. She finally confessed to having talked to him twice, then "maybe 5 times", including last night. She said the first time was a few days ago, after we had had a really bad night. She insisted that she hasn't met with him in person. She said that she was really struggling with this, that it was so hard to not talk to him after having talked to him so much previously, and that it was so hard for her to give up something that makes her happy now, for something that maybe will make her happy in the future.
I tried hard to be calm. I insisted that she had to stop, that I cannot put up with this, etc, but I tried to do it without ranting and raving, and I stopped just short of giving her an ultimatum.
When she went to leave (I had the cellphone), she demanded that I give her the cellphone and I refused. She told me that if I did not give it to her, that she wasn't coming home tonight. Ultimately, I gave in. She left, with me sobbing like a baby.
She called me from the road 15 minutes later. She said that she really had meant it, last week, when she said that she had decided to stay with me, but that she was really struggling with that decision. She said that she didn't want to break any more promises to me, and that she needed today to think about it before promising not to contact him again (I guess as long as you haven't broken your latest promise, that makes it OK. Gee, what a great idea, why didn't I think of that?).
So that brings us up to date. Me back to square one and leaving the country for 5 days, and her in contact with him and making no promises. I'm numb, and losing hope. I'm assuming that she has made plans to get together with him while I'm gone, but she denies it (of course).
I'll go ahead and make that MC appointment, although it's quite possible that we won't ever go. But one thing I've learned from you and others is that I will make my decision about whether to D or not carefully and deliberately. At least I have that much control.
A Bible verse keeps coming back to me: "Lord, I believe, help my unbelief". Will my prayers ever be answered?
You guys are great, and I value your help immensely. I hope (to God) to have internet access in Japan, but can't be sure.
Hi Bri, Try not to worry while you are in Japan, I know it is easier said than done. Just keep yourself busy, & I would call W every once in while to see how she is doing, show you care & miss her without actually saying so. Have a good trip, Be safe. ~~K~~
Last night, I was very nervous and upset, due to what happened yesterday morning, and waiting for my W to get home from work. When she finally did, she sort of acted like there was nothing to discuss. She was in sort of a punchy, happy mood, and tired from work (I don't have concerns about her while she's at work. As a hospital nurse, there really aren't opportunities to further an A there).
Either I'm off my rocker or she is, because I thought it was clear that she was going to announce her decision about whether she was going to continue to contact/see the OG. She said "no, no, of course I've made my decision not to continue the A" (uh, no honey, that wasn't at all clear). She said that she was just PO'd about my snooping, and that she just reacted angrily to all my questions. She also said again that it had just been hard to go cold-turkey from this guy. But she also said that, after one more goodbye call (a short one, she said), it really would be over.
She said the right things, told me what I needed to hear. Now, in the bliss of hope and ignorance, I can go on my trip thinking that she will really finally end the A, and be ready to start the long road back to a good M. It sucks to have to be gone during these next crucial days, but maybe it's for the best for her to have to do what needs to be done on her own, without the fear of getting caught. If she follows through, it will have been because she decided to do it, not because I hounded her into it.
I'll talk to you guys either from Japan or after I get back.
Wow, lots of important issues and great sharing of experiences here to help you. I always get so much out of reading the stuff Sage has to say.
I can SO relate to your difficulty with "to Spy or not to Spy". It makes you feel somewhat in control, but out of control at the same time.
When h and I were in the stage you and your W are in, it was like I was dealing with someone in an addictive state! I don't think he actually cared much about the OW, but the endorphine & hormonal rush of having a secret thing going on that was fluffing up his poor self-esteem & giving him the attention he had been needing was really giving him a rush.
It's not the sex! I think that must harder for men to understand when their wives stray. It's rarely about the sex. It's the FANTASY addiction, so to speak. Affairs don't include the discussions about kids the and bills and who takes out the garbage this week. In an affair, you can pretend your not a grownup, you can remember how you felt when you were young and the high that you get from being pursued and desired.
The more you FEED that fantasy, the more your real-life seems lacking. You find ways to justify your craving--rationalize that your spouse is too this or that, not enough this or that. It's a form of temporary insanity that can cause you to act very out of character: (lying even if you are a normally honest person) (being irresponsible about your kids even if you have always been a good parent). I was shocked to hear many of the things coming out my h's mouth during that stage as much of it was so far out in lala land that it sounded like he was delusional about all kinds of things.
The upside of looking at the similarities to addiction is that, by their nature, affairs usually lose their power when reality starts to intrude. Sooner or later, you start really noticing that this OG or OW does things that you don't like or find annoying--maybe even some of the things you were thinking you hated about your spouse!
It's not the OG that she's having trouble cutting loose and going through withdrawals over, it's the way the A made her feel in her own head. It will take awhile for her to get her head clear and get back into reality. That's the time when you will have to be really patient and supportive even though you are angry and don't feel sorry for them and want to kick some a** (been there--wanted to hunt them both down...kill him quick because I still loved him...kill her slow because I hated her). Yikes--I was in a temporary insanity myself!
We have only recently been able to start rebuilding our R--after some of the crazies had started to slow down. I wish now that I hadn't taken some of the negative, delusional things my H said in the beginning to heart and gotten so reactive in return. I also wish I hadn't verbally beaten up on H so much. It might have made me feel better to vent at the time, but really added to his guilt and shame and really discouraged him from thinking there was hope for our R.
Hopefully, trying to understand your W's current behaviour as similar to an addiction and temporary insanity will help give you some patience and hope. What I found out was that there would come a time later on to talk and work on our R--but not right after the nuclear bomb expleded and we were still suffering from radiation poisoning.
If I had it to do all over again, I would have backed off a whole lot, not gotten consumed with the snooping, and just let him know that when he was ready to start working with me to improve our R, I'd be willing. So much for hindsight--but we're slowly putting things back together even though I made many mistakes.
Hi Bri, I know how hard it is, if you are anything like me, I feel like if I go and do something(because I do not work) that I will miss something or H will contact the OW. Although I am pretty sure H has cut all ties except for work. It does seem that way, but because I was hurt & violated so badly & it hasn't been that long I still feel alittle shaky about it all. My H is doing & saying all the right things too. But I guess you just wonder I wish this was something we could all get over overnight but I think it takes much longer than that unfortunately. Maybe your right even though you'll be gone and she does totally cut ties it will be because of her and not you. I hope everything works out for you. Try not to snoop anymore that was a very big mistake of mine, which I felt the need to know, it hurt worse when I found out things, but it also pushed my H futher away & he got mad. Go figure he was the one who was screwing around & he got mad at me I thought that really sucked considering my H would have totally hit the roof if the shoe was on the other foot. I am glad things are going good I am still afraid to let my guard down, I just keep praying that something like this will never happen again, I don't think I could handle it. What are your feelings on that do you worry about that? Because in my M I really wasn't aware that things were that bad, I really don't think they were but I am always afraid of messing up even if I think I'm doing the right things. I will be thinking about you so if you have time while in Japan let us know how you are doing, like I said before call your W a few times while away to see how she is doing, without asking about he OG & see what happens maybe she will volunteer some information and I think by you calling without any R talk or OG talk she'll know you still care but are giving her some space. You would think it would be the other way around HUH? But the book says sometimes what feels totally unnatural is what you should do. Take care. ~~K~~
Hi, I really find your thoughts interesting, I am having a very difficult time getting my H PA out of my mind sometimes, even though things seem to be back on track. The addition and fantasy you talk about puts things in a different light for me, I just hope that I can think of it that way more often ( the thoughts of my H in love W/ OW) makes me ill. Your way is much better. ~~K~~
Have you read Love must be Tough by James Dobson? If not pick it up. It can give you some good ideas on "loving while drawing your line" Until I filed an injuction preventing W from taking kids around OM and his kids I was the doormat.
I get so much out of everyone else's posts--I'm glad that you can find something usefull from my experiences.
What helped was that my H finally started talking to me. I have to really keep calm at some parts of his story--part of me wants to freak out at how calmly he can desccribe pursuing another woman! I try to listen as if I am listening to a friend so I can be more objective and really understand what H had been thinking and going through--but it took awhile for me to calm down enough to do that. Our goal is to both really understand what happened and what we could have done differently at various points---so this will NEVER happen again.
Thanks for writing. Obviously, I did not have internet access in Japan as hoped. I missed the help I get from this board, and the trip was difficult, emotionally.
I called my W twice a day while I was there. Short calls, mostly, and I avoided R talk, except one time when I asked her if she had been in contact with the OG. She said no, but that she thought she needed to call him once more to end it (again. I had found out the day before leaving on my trip that she had been talking to him on the phone.) But she promised not to see him and said that she had made her decision to stay with me. So, I dropped any further discussion about it until I got back. While on the trip, I finished the "After the Affair" book, which I found quite helpful.
I don't think my W really knows how much power she has over my moods. On Sunday, she said she really appreciated a simple card I had left on her pillow the morning I left. Zing. My spirits were high all day Monday. Then on Tuesday morning, I called just before having to give a presentation at a conference, and just wanted to talk to her for a few minutes to help calm my nerves. She could hardly be bothered though, and kept getting distracted by a conversation her friends were having in the same room (she could have taken the cordless phone out of the room if she had wanted). I ended up hanging up on her. Zing. Instant low. Then on Wednesday, she said, "we miss you. It'll be good to have you home". Zing. Instant high. Then I got back yesterday, and even though she knew what time I would arrive, she had arranged to have a hair appointment and go grocery shopping instead of coming home to see me. Zing, another low. I can't wait until the time when I don't scrutinize her every move and words, and take control back over my moods. I still obsess far too much.
When I finally did talk to her yesterday, she said that she had called the OG on Tuesday and ended it for good. She admitted, though, that he had left her a message on Wednesday (she hadn't called him back). Of course, I wonder how firm she had been when she told him goodbye, if he felt that he could call her back the very next day. But she promised not to call him, and promised that she would let me know if he calls her. I don't put too much stock in those promises. The analogy of someone who has gotten caught up in an addiction again seems appropriate. She is addicted to the A, she has gotten awfully good at lying, and she doesn't seem to be too compelled to stick by her promises. Still, the promises are something, and I'm trying not to minimize them too much.
Kim, in answer to your question, I'm not sure that I could handle it if I found out that she had restarted the physical part of the A. I could probably forgive another phone call or 2. I know that she is going through her own kind of hell in breaking it off with him. But if she sleeps with him again, I'll ask her to move out of the house. That, of course, means that the kids, neighbors, family and friends would all find out about it. Would that mean a D? More likely than not, I'm afraid. I pray it never comes to that. If in the end there's going to be a D, I hope that she makes the decision, so that I don't have to wonder whether I made the right choice for me and my children.
I don't think her attitude and feelings toward me can change much if she is still in any kind of contact with him. Her contacts with him over the last 2 weeks have basically set us back to square one, in many ways.
I tried to initiate sex last night. She said it was still too soon, still too weird. I'm conflicted. It's still too soon and still too weird for me too, in some ways. But it's going to be a little weird whenever we have sex for the 1st time, regardless of when it happens. It seems that the longer we wait, the more pressure there will be to make it be just right somehow (which it won't be). Also, I want the intimacy of sex, and I want to start creating new memories, to help get rid of some of the awful images of them having sex that keep creeping into my mind. Plus, I'm a guy (what can I say?), and it's been a long time.
I'd like to think that the high drama stage of finding out about the A, catching her still in contact with him, etc, is over. My mind and body are tired of the depression, the sleepless nights, and being constantly feeling drained emotionally. I hope that the next stage brings at least a little more sleep, a little more energy, and a little less obsession.
Quote: I'd like to think that the high drama stage of finding out about the A, catching her still in contact with him, etc, is over. My mind and body are tired of the depression, the sleepless nights, and being constantly feeling drained emotionally. I hope that the next stage brings at least a little more sleep, a little more energy, and a little less obsession.
I think you have realistic expectations, Brian. My experience has been that of small steps forward with some periods of no progress and some setbacks. Your W has said that she has made her decision, and while I know how you feel about not trusting what she says anymore, try to build on that positive. I wouldn't be too surprised about the reinitiation of phone or email contact between them, but I think your boundary (no resumption of sex) is clear enough. If your W fell in love with this OM, it will take some time for those feelings to fade, and probably even longer for her to be fully reinvested in your M.
As to the sex, try to think in DR terms. Are you always the pursuer? What about before the A? Whatever the case, try something different next time and see how she responds. So, for example, if you usually initiate, don't. Let her know you're available, but back off and see what happens. If that doesn't work (give it a few weeks), reevaluate and try another strategy. You can create other, non-sexual memories in the meantime that can also be pleasant.
