It is amazing how one can be SO in love with a person and yet be SO ANGRY at her at the same time! I have been reading a book by Max Lucado about love, so when I find it difficult to love or forgive her I focus on Gods love and forgiveness for me. If God can love this big screwup that is me, then surely I should be able to love my W! But sometimes (often!) the whole sitch is just too overwhelming and I lose it completely...
As far as GAL is concerned, I have been begging W for ages now to go ballroom dancing (We did it before, it was great fun) and she responded by taking bellydancing classes once a week. No males allowed! I have been toying with the idea of going to a singles class. The problem is, I will be dancing with other women (not OW! there isn't one) and I really dont think it will be the same. it may even backfire on my MR. What do you think?
W and I plan on going skydiving again this weekend. I hope we survive!
Kolle
Me 43 W 42 M 1998 S16 S15 D7 D4 bomb 07/03/2007 OPA ILYBNILWY My Thread
I think by GAL means something for yourself. It is good to do things with the W if she is willing and it is good to spend time with the kids without the W being around. But, you need something just for you!
Some books, like the Five Languages of Love (for example), I think is more for when the MR is more stable or at least in the "healing state".
You understand that "Love is a Decision", but your W is not in that frame of mind. I know I wasn't when I went through my personal crisis. It is a good book though.
There are so many good books out there, but Divorce Remedy really gives you the tools that you need to have right now! So read that book over and over.
I do agree with you about God and how He loves us, etc. You know God refers to Israel as His W, and the Israelites committed spiritual adultery more than once and God's discipline fell on them as a result. He did not like it at all!
It is true that we do not deserve to be loved by God and we can't do anything by good deeds or penance or anything to change God's love toward us. He never changes in spite of our mess ups. However, He too has boundaries that are described in the Bible.
We learn through our personal experience with God loving us and how the Bible teaches us to love others in like manner. However, when it comes to our own spouse.....the flesh is very weak and it is so hard! But...it can be done. Of all the books to read....the Bible is the best.
Unfortunately, your wife is not going to want to read anything you are reading or especially any quotes from the Bible. It is due to the frame of mind and her backsliding spiritual condition.
I wished I could talk longer, but I have got to get into bed.
Take care.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
The skydiving never happened, W was feeling poorly. On Monday I took her to hospital for a small procedure under anaestetic, leaving the two little girls with the big boys. As we left the house at noon I asked, where is s16? W said she told him to be back by one. After my w came from OR at 5, s 15 phones and tells me his brother is not home yet. I really needed him to help look after the little ones. Then he (S16) phones and says he wants to go out for the night. I tell him no, he is needed at home and he was supposed to be home by one anyway, so he is being punished. He says he wants to speak to W, I hand her the phone, telling her that I told him he could not go out. She speaks to him but I don't follow the conversation. 10 minutes later s15 phones and says s16 is going out. I phone him and he tells me Mom said it is OK. I tell him it is not, he says "you are just a power obsessed control freak, who tries to prove he is more powerful than mom." I lose it completely, and what follows is the worst fit of rage I have experienced in a long time. She KNEW I forbade him to go out, and gave him permission none the less. When the smoke clears from the battle field the next morning (tuesday) I realize that I have done more damage in a few hours than I have done in 18 years. The thing is, while I was so angry I did not WANT to be married to my wife, and that idea scares the hell out of myself. I received DR in the mail on tuesday, and read it the same day. IF ONLY I HAD THIS BOOK A YEAR AGO!
if you know of any pills that can cure Ass*&^ness please let me know! Honestly, if I were my W on monday night I would have run away too.
So, I am now officially day three DBing, and have no hope.
Me 43 W 42 M 1998 S16 S15 D7 D4 bomb 07/03/2007 OPA ILYBNILWY My Thread
Kolle, if I knew of such pills, I would be overdosing on them myself....and so would everyone else. We all have had diarrhea of the mouth at one time or another. Here lately, mine has been with my GS b/c I think he is about to marry the wrong girl and there are other problems attached that I won't get into, but it is killing our entire family. Everytime I swear that I will not talk to him about it again (b/c it just pushes him closer to her) then I go off on him about something and first thing you know I end up on their R.
Don't beat yourself up too much. Your son was way....way out of line! First, he disobeyed you and then he took advantage of the situation his mom was in after just coming out of OR and then he disrespected you very, very much. Personally, I think he deserved to receive your wrath plus some grounding on top of that! But, then I am old fashion according to my GS (ugh). I do not believe in allowing kids to talk to their parents like that and get away with it.....but I see it more and more every day. The thing is, he is playing the two of you against each other for his own advantage. He is not stupid and he knows there are problems between you and the W.....so he is going to play the game to reap the benefits for himself whenever he can. Some teenagers can't see the seriousness of the breakdown of a M and realize their entire home life is going to change if there is a D b/c they are too wrapped up in what "they" want right then. Others, are very worried about their parents R and I wouldn't be surprised if that is what the younger son is like. He apparently is more responsible or at least more respectful and obedient than the oldest.
You have been under a lot of pressure. You stood by your W while she underwent this procedure and then she defiantly turned around and showed disrespect by allowing the boy to do what he wanted in spite of what you had already told him. I would have been furious just as you were! It sounds like she has either won over the oldest by telling him some things to get him "on her side" of the stitch or else he thinks if there is a D, he will live with her and be a "free man" to do as he pleases without any problems with the old man.
Don't lose hope! Just regain your ground with the son. He needs to know without any doubts that you are the head of the home and if he ever goes to his mother with anything after you have told him that he was not allowed to do whatever it is he wants.....he will have to deal with the consquences. Then, I would deal with the W about what she did! It places you in a very sticky situation b/c you must have your children repect you and obey you---and the W must not go against what you have already told the kids just to get back at you, or to win their favoritism, or out of spite for you. I suppose if I were to ever lose hope, it would be under those circumstances. However, I do believe that in time parents can gain the respect from their kids again. But, if this 16 year old boy has been given a lot of "freedom" from mom....there is going it is going to be hell to crack down on him now.
If at all possible (and it's hard with 16 year-olds) but if the you two had something you liked to do together....go to sport evens, fishing, whatever....maybe you could work at spending more time with him. When adults are having M problems, they don't realize that all their time and energy is being placed on their spouse instead of the kids (in some cases). Perhaps he feels neglected and is rebelling.....(aren't they all?). So, I think the key is to have an equal amount of discipline along with the love, affection and good times. Which is kind of hard with some boys and dads to show affection when there is strife between them. Try spending more time with the boys. At this scary age, they need their dad a lot. Oh, and I have learned also that they want one on one with dad and not share him with their sibling every time. Besides, spending more time with them will give your wife some space. I know you worry about her getting on the internet, but you can't hoover over her 24/7......my H tried that and it will backfire. Just back away like the DR book tells you and give her space.
The DR book is great and it really is the tools to get your M back on track again. But, I know where your wife is coming from b/c I was there myself once. Unless she decides to stop the internet chasing, it is going to get worse. That is what concerns me. I did not want to let it go when my H confronted me about it and told me I had an addiction. I almost hated him when I found out he had snooped and read my messages to the OM. But, it was my R with God that made the difference and helped me to realize that if I didn't break it, then God would deal with me......severely. That is just my personal belief. I know everyone has their own way of looking at things. That is how it works in my life. First, I have to get my life/heart right with God, then my H, and so on.
I have had many dark days in past years where one of my teenagers was concerned. I almost gave up hope. However, things did turn around and I was able to see God do His work in her life. Prayer is a powerful weapon that we have. Don't give up all hope yet. Give God time to work. The hardest thing for me is to stay out of His way and to remember that His time is not the same as my time and His ways are certainly not like my ways (which is a good thing...lol).
Know that you can talk to me anytime you need to. I'm here to listen and of course.....open my big mouth and give my POV. (lol)
Take care.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
S16 and I apologised to each other, and I lay down the rules: No asking the other parent if one had already said no. I hope he understands it now. Last night I took S15 and D7 to see the Nanny Diaries. Very boring movie but at least I got to spend some time with the kids, and I am sure it counts for GAL. This morning I am completely overtaken by sadness, it is like a blanket that smothers me. I still cannot understand why she has to do this. I know, I should not try to understand and just merrily DB onwards. It is just damn difficult. How do you project joy when everything is black inside?
I haven't told my wife I love her for 5 days now, I feel like shouting it out... I LOVE MY WIFE!
Me 43 W 42 M 1998 S16 S15 D7 D4 bomb 07/03/2007 OPA ILYBNILWY My Thread
You come here to us and shout it out loud that you LOVE YOUR WIFE! This is a safe place to come and express your feelings...the good and the bad.
I suppose it is impossible to just stop asking yourself why this has happened to your W, but it does no good to do that. You can't really analyze it b/c it is all too crazy. And it beats you up emotionally and finally physically too. But, just as you stood by her while she was in the OR, you have to stand by your M by DBing every single day. If it helps any at all, look at it as if she had some type of disease and you just have to learn the coping strategies. In a lot of ways, it is like a disease that comsumes a person. You have your "how to" book from Michelle. Do your best to follow it. It is the best.
Keep doing things with the kids that they like to do. When a man has four of them, it leaves little time to have personal GAL time, right? Besides, they really need you, as I said last time. They probably feel insecure b/c they can pick up on mom and dad's R problems. Spending quality time with them is good medicine.
Take care and please keep coming back. It does help to yell out what you don't need to say to her at this time.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
We had another fight 2 days ago: One of the big issues wile she had OA with OM was the fact she posted sensual photos of herself on facebook. It completely freaked me out in the context of her A. Well, she does not have an online A now but she is still posting those pictures. Please understand: they are not pornographic or even erotic, like nude photos or anything, they are simply sensual. The look in the eyes, the pout of the lips, a bit of exposed thigh etc. She took some photos of herself three days ago for a camera club project "After dark" and asked my opinion. Very nice pictures: Her in a spagetti PJ top with marilyn monroe's face and hotpants with one arm behind the head, knees together and feet apart, that sort of thing. (W is really beautiful). I told her beautiful picture but are you going to post that on the internet? She says why not? I say, well it looks like you are advertising yourself. You have about thirty pictures of yourself on facebook, what does that say about you?
Immediate drop in temperature to sub zero. And I realize it was a trap. Or a sick test or something. She knows exactly how I feel about the subject, why does she ask me? Next day she posts some remark on her Facebook profile: "I'm not sexy I'm just photographed that way. I can't do anything right, always in trouble" Of course she gets response from guys telling her how sexy she is...
My question: Was this a DBing mistake to give her my honest opinion? The moment I saw she got angry I left the room, but it feels that she is now more distant than ever before.
Me 43 W 42 M 1998 S16 S15 D7 D4 bomb 07/03/2007 OPA ILYBNILWY My Thread
The other night W tells me, I feel trapped. I say, I can understand that. She says, How the h$$$ would you understand. I tell her, because all the books say it is how you would feel now. You are abandoning me, my natural reaction is symbiotic regression, that means I become dependent on you like a baby. I latch on to you like an octopus. That's why you feel trapped. Its normal. She says, Boy you'll always put a big name to everyting, won't you. I says, making the diagnosis is the first step to finding a cure. She grunts, and I leave the room.
She told me a hundred times before that she felt trapped. But now that I am DBing I would like to know what is the appropriate DB response. Do I just withdraw myself from her to give her space? Do I offer to move out? Do I ignore it?
After W had the OA I hacked her email account password, she knew it , I told her I wanted full access to her email so that I could learn to trust her again (as in the book the 5 languages of apology) Our c agreed, so she did not change her password again. A while ago I realised she had changed her password, but I did not say anything. Then last night when I entered the family room she was busy writing an email, when she realised I was standing behind her she quickly closed the window and was furious at me for "violating her privacy" by reading over her shoulder. I said, why does it bother you, are you writning to X (OM) again? The moment I said it I realised it was a mistake and left the room, I went to reread a chapter or two of DR, and it took the rest of the evening to get that email out of my head.
She probably just wrote to a friend (girl) abour our R and did not want me to read it. But the idea that she may have an A again drives me crazy. I have decided not to hack her new password but the temptation to do so is enormous!I want to do it NOW!
This morning I told her, I really like your hair done just so and so, it looks beautiful. She smiled and said thank you. Baby step forward? I sincerely hope so. I need some hope after all the recent disasters.
Me 43 W 42 M 1998 S16 S15 D7 D4 bomb 07/03/2007 OPA ILYBNILWY My Thread
One of the big issues wile she had OA with OM was the fact she posted sensual photos of herself on facebook. It completely freaked me out in the context of her A. Well, she does not have an online A now but she is still posting those pictures. Please understand: they are not pornographic or even erotic, like nude photos or anything, they are simply sensual.
I think I know where you W is coming from, but God help me to try to explain it. I think it stems from low self-esteem. Now, if she really has the face of Marilyn Monroe, that would be hard for anyone to realize how you could have low self-esteem.....but then study the life of Marilyn Monroe and see the tragedy there. Beautiful women can feel very neglected, lonely, and ugly. I am not placing this at your feet. I don't know that you had any thing to do with it, by that I mean you could have been the perfect H and she may still have those problems due to something in her past.
I am not up on technology enough to know that much about facebook, but I put my picture on the IM I was sending the OM. It was not nude, but I suppose it looked sensual.....although I could not see it in myself, my H was furious and shocked when he found it. He was so disappointed that I would do such a thing! My actions stemmed from years of neglect and loneliness......feelings of losing my youth, beauty, and sex appeal. It also was the old problem I've had all my life with low self-esteem. I needed somebody to feed my ego and my H wasn't doing it, so I found somebody that would. Thank God I did not place my picture on an adult web chat site, but I almost thought about it....and it scares me to death to know how close I came one night in doing that very thing! To think how low we will stoop!
Well, just as I got addicted to the "praise" of all the guys telling me how sexy and beautiful I was (and falling for it), I think your W is doing the same thing. She is addicted, sweetie, and it is going to be very, very hard for her to break that addiction. It is strong stuff. Just like a lot of beautiful models were hanging all over you and telling you how hot you were would feed your male ego.....that is what is happening to her by these men. It seems so easy by Internet b/c it is like it's not real. I would never do something like that in person....or at least I don't think I would, but if I had continued to do so, I was well on my way to meeting OM in real life.....so who's to say? My point is that you seem to do things easier starting out over the Internet. It's like not realizing all the people that could see that.
If you are going to trust her, you must not ask for her password. My H did the same thing when he accidentally came across a new password I had used on a game and it showed up on the messenger IM. He demanded to know what it was and I told him I had forgotten b/c it was old. I really did b/c he was so mad and I was so nervous I couldn't even think right then. The point is, she will keep finding new passwords, and if she has too, she will find other computers to make her contacts. My H threw away my web cam and mic and I resented him for treating me like a child and it made me rebel more. She will also! Be careful. You can't control her and the more you try, the worse she will become. You have to let it go. Stop snooping or you will go crazy.
She needs counseling. She needs to know why she has this problem of wanting other men to see her as sexy. Maybe it is MLC. With me, my M sucked and I couldn't face the next birthday that was hitting me in the face. So, I had what I call a mini-MLC b/c I had too many of the symptoms not to be.
My advice about what you said to her about advertising herself only placed shame on her.....or it should have, she didn't act like it bothered her, but that may have been a cover-up. I would not take that avenue with her. She needs support and not your judgment. I don't say that scolding you. If I were a H, there is no telling how badly I would react to such a thing!
Maybe I've told you this before, but my H would tell me I looked nice, but it wasn't the same as when I heard the OM say, "Baby, you are so damn hot!" Now this embarrasses me to let you know how low I got, but still it caused my heart to flutter. I only tell you that b/c maybe you should change your technique up a bit. Instead of just saying, "You look pretty today" or whatever your usual expression of praise may be.....try to be a little more sexy about it....at least say it differently. If my H had given me a big Wolf whistle and said I looked hot, then who would need some OM over the Internet? But, he didn't, and besides, by that point, I had felt so neglected for so long, I don't know if it would have stopped me. I hope it's not too late for you.
I still would not tell her that you love her.....that is pressure and pursuing. But, you can give her compliments. But, don't do it in a "needy" type of way. Be "cool" about how you do it. I know you want to control the Internet activity, but you can't...not completely. She has to make that break herself. I just pray she will see what is happening to herself before it is too late. Do you think the boys have seen the pictures? That may be a wake-up call if she thought they had. Most mothers don't want their children to see what they are up to on the Internet and pictures.
My H used to come up behind me and watch me on the computer also. Bad idea! I almost hated him for that. Felt like his child he was punishing. She is not your child and men have a tendency to treat their wayward wives as children. She doesn't deserve your trust, but for your sake you must stop snooping and stop watching her while she is on the computer. Apply the DR techniques and keep coming here to post. Take one day at a time and baby step it. We will take the problems as they come. Can't undo everything at one time. I know one man whose wife left him just so she could continue her Internet habits. You still have time and now have the tools to know what to do. I know that the calls to Michelle are rather expensive, but if you can't find a workable answer, I would call her to see what she says about it. It's kind of hard to put a price on your M.
Hope to hear from you soon. Remember to stay attractive in your behavior and your looks. Stay sexy and "cool".
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
My kids see her facebook profile, as I said the pics are not erotic or anything, and I have often thought that I am overjealous about it. It is just in the context of that A that they really freak me out. Maybe It's just me who thinks they portray her as sexy. But she does get those "sexy" comments from other guys.
The sudden reversion to top secrecy really has me worried about the possibility of another EA, there are a few guys who correspond with her on a daily basis who would all like to be her friend.
I accept that I should not snoop because it won't save my marraige and my W has already started the divorce procedures, but the more secretive she gets the more it eats at my insides. I WILL NOT GIVE IN TO THE TEMPTATION! There, I am resolved. No snooping. I will not snoop. (It is so easy to do... I love hacking computers.)
So here are my goals for the next week. --I will not snoop. I will completely detach from what she may be doing or did before. --I will not pursue her, seem clingy or needy. --I will not judge her but support her. I WILL NOT GET INVOLVED IN ARGUMENTS! --I will casually(!) and HONESTLY compliment W 3 times a day --I will try to spend time with W every day to tell her about my day and ask her about hers. --I will try to think of a spectacular 180... --I will consciously decide every day to love her unconditionally - no matter what.
Got to go now, W is at bellydancing and I have to get D7 to bed.
Kolle
Me 43 W 42 M 1998 S16 S15 D7 D4 bomb 07/03/2007 OPA ILYBNILWY My Thread
