Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums THE SEX-STARVED MARRIAGE Need Help

I am new to this site and originally posted this in the Newcomers list. It was suggested that I post it here. If you read this another place, please forgive the repeat. I have made a couple of additions.

My wife and I have been through six different marriage counselors in the past 16 years. And yet our marriage has been on a downward spiral.

One issue is sex. We were very active during our engagement but when we returned home from the honeymoon, that quickly slowed. The reality is that in 18 years we probably have had less sex than in the 1 year of the engagement. My wife has said from early in the marriage that she never was interested but was afraid of losing my friendship as a became interested in someone else. She has told me that she never liked sex, doesn't want sex, and doesn't want to talk about it. We started marriage at about once a month and quickly dropped to a few times a year, then less than twice a year, now its been almost 18 months. Is is really possible that she would have been this deceptive during our engagement?

Last year my wife hit me when she was half asleep and I required 7 months of medical treatment. It is not typical for her to be physically violent, just verbally. She has broken doors and other things when angry. After she hit me I was encouraged to report the incident to Domestic Violence (by my couselor and doctor) and did. I decided not to carry through with a PFA or divorce but instead try to deal with it with our current marriage counselor. (He was aware of the report before it happened and accepted this as a reasonable solution.) The night we discussed it in couselling, she moved out of our bedroom (4/07) and has not moved back. She was angry that I would even consider reporting it. In July she did discuss moving back, but I told her that I was still working through forgiving her. I have since gotten past this and have invited her to return a few times but that has been rejected. In reality, she has talked about living in separate rooms since sometime in the first year of our marriage. Sometimes it seems like this was just the excuse to make it happen. Is it possible that this is just part of the first issue?

Our second marriage counselor started us on the love languages and I have tried to loave her in her ways. One issue is that every time we start counselling again, I get a different message about her love language. Our last session was a 2 day intensive and the counselors started giving recommendations to me. My wife defended me saying that I had already been doing most of them (which was true). I am beginning to think there is no way for her to feel loved by me.

Since then I have joined Codependence Anonymous. Both my couselor and the marriage counselor thought it was an excellent idea. My wife thinks it is counter productive or wrong and hassles me about attending meetings (by sarcastic comments, direct criticism, trying to shame me about time away from 'the family', telling me that meeting time is selfish, etc.).

I am slowly learning how to walk away from abusive language and make stands about things that are important to me, but this only seems to put more distance into the relationship.

I do not believe in divorce for religious reasons and my wife is of a similar mindset. But it feels like there has really never been much of a marriage and I don't know how to deal with that inner conflict. Sometimes I feel like I was purposely deceived. I guess I am looking for some hope that this relationship can be resolved.

Like Michelle has said in some of her articles, I have a lot of people that think I should give divorce a more serious look. I have been fighting the WAH impulse for years. Anyone have advice?

We have two children (13 and 15).

TH,

You have no children, your wife hasn't had sex with you in a year and a half, she is verbally violent with you AND she hit you once requiring 7 months of medical treatment??

Why do you even want to be with this woman?

Puppy

We have two children. It was in the message but not the signature.

OK, tougher then. But still, what is it you want to remain married to? I'm not being a smartazz, and you may have very valid reasons. I'm just wondering what they are?

1) Believe it or not, I still care about my W. She has major self-image issues and D would be the ultimate rejection to her.

2) My religious persuasion is against divorce.

3) I have seen that my W has a better side, it is just well hidden many times.

4) I know my one son would be devastated by a divorce. He would not understand. (The other son openly wonders why we are still married.)

5) I have seen God do miraculus things in the past and I am hoping for another one here. I expect it might take quite a bit of work though.

6) I am not completely innocent in this. Although I get accused of many things that I have not thought (let alone said or done), I am not always sensitive to her needs either.

7) If the M fails, I still need to become a healthier person. I don't see running away as a way to deal with my inner conflicts. I am afraid they will just reappear in different ways if I do not deal with them now. My hope is that dealing with my issues will make a difference in the relationship. Right now, it appears to be making it worse. But maybe in the long run it will make a difference. If me becoming healthier destroys the M, then the M itself is not viable. But no one likes change. It may take awhile for my W to adapt to my change.

8) In the past, I have allowed this situation to grow and continue by not making a stand against the verbal/emotional attacks. I hope that learning to make a stand will eventually make an impact.

Right now, I am accused of emotional abuse because I will walk away when I feel attacked or overwhelmed. I am using a 'time-out' technique we both learned in counseling and were incouraged to use for just this situation. My W thinks it is just an excuse for not dealing with issues. It is possible that there are some issues I am not ready to deal with, but most of the time it is verbal triggers that are signs that the conversation will just degenerate. At this point, I think it is better to stop the conversation/argument before that happens.

Anyone have input?

Those are good and thoughtful reasons, Troubled.

Can you tell us some more about the verbal abuse? How bad is it, and how often? Are your sons exposed to this?

Hi troubled...welcome to divorcebusting.com

What tools do you have besides the 5 Love languages....Do you have any of Michele's books, or His Needs/Her Needs?

What is it like when you are in the midst of a conflict with your wife. What are the typical words that are said by each of you. Describe it as if we were right in the room with you.

Just finished the response and realized it got long. Sorry, but I think it addresses your questions.

I just found the site a couple of days ago. I haven't had a chance to get any of the books. But here are a few that I have read in this process:

Getting the Love You Want
The Dance of Anger
Reconcilable Differences
What's so Amazing About Grace

We actually took part in a several month group session on Gettin the Love You Want. We tried the empathetic couples dialog, but frequently she would put a negative spin on anything I said when she reflected. If I tried to rephrase, she would blow up and tell me I was being too picky on her reflection effectively ending the dialog session.

It is hard to describe a 'typical' conflict. I can say that counselors have stopped her several times in session on the issues of sarcasm, judgement, back handed appologies, and direct attacks. And she is normally on her best behavior in front of other people. When all else fails she will become 'histrionic' (her word for it). Basically, as long as I agree with her we can have pleasant conversation. If I disagree with her (even if it is about my perception or feelings), I will receive one or all of the above until I give in. Counseling and CoDA are teaching me that 'giving in' is the wrong response. It has been slowly eating away at me for years. I have only recently noticed the the 'histrionic' phase is really a manipulation tool. When I don't respond to it, it quickly turns into a pure verbal attack on my character.

Until recently her final response would have included slamming at least on door where ever she went in the house. In the last counseling session, she was told that this was a form of violence (she has broken two latchs/locks and one door). She has stopped the door slamming since then.

Frequently, there are little digs about anything that didn't go her way. These digs can come back for months or even years in random situations.

A typical family game night might start out fine, but if someone says something even slightly critical of her (like asked why she played a card), it is a coin flip as to whether she will take it as part of the game or start yelling and shouting at the person about how it's suppose to be fun and of course she is going to make mistakes ... This can go on for 5-10 minutes. (The person could be me or the kids. If it is the kids, she will frequently end up yelling at me too.) She frequently says we tell her she's stupid but the honest truth is that none of us feel that way. (Sometimes the teenagers will think any adult is stupid, but that is the age.)

I know that some of this is the result of self-esteem issues. (Her parent were never particularly supportive.) But I am slowly learning that her past does not excuse her present actions.

I think she is really trying to change, but I'm not sure she knows how. Her changing behavior with slamming doors is an example.

She sounds charming.


I've read the first two books--a long time ago--preDB, not the second two. So from everything you've said...I know for sure you have an amazing heart. You have a wonderful capacity for love....and your family is blessed to have you.

I know you are looking for a miracle.....and they do happen....I've witnessed them myself. A couple times in my life there have been instances of nothing short of divine intervention...and one was about a week ago. That said...God never intercepts anyone's free will.

The difference in Michele's books is the perspective of ACTION. Doing and getting results. That doesn't mean there isn't heart behind it. Michele ( and Virginia) have wonderful wonderful hearts...I digress.

In DBing you are going to look at PATTERNS OF INTERACTION. It's great, because it removes the blame, which you are kind of looking to do....it would be so easy to blame your wife for her bad behavior. I love that you are willing to try, and invoke change in yourself. You are the kind of person who will change the world.

No matter 'who starts it' the pattern goes that A does something and B reacts a certain way and then A reacts to that blah blah blah. The theory is....just change the pattern. The other person will necessarily do something different as well. Hopefully it's a good thing. If not....wait a bit....unless you just got a worse reaction, then do something ELSE different. SEE...it isn't hard...at least to say......and once you get the hang and the focus, it isn't hard to do. (I'm slow, took me a long time, but you don't seem so slow.)


I would suggest right now that you stop the talk. Just work on body language right now. Mirror her. See if it keeps her calm.

And that's what we're working on right now.....keeping her calm, and reasonable. Unless you have other goals (usually we work with goals first.)


What are the GOOD THINGS in your relationship?

Good Things in our relationship

1) We share a common faith. She has said many times that this is why she has not filed for divorce already.

2) When times are de-escalated (which still happens - see my post in newcomers for 'the cycle'), we enjoy playing cards and other games, watching movies, and eating out together

3)My W and I both love are kids. She does not always treat them well, but that is her anger issues (she has the same cycles with them, sometimes in sync with the one with me and sometimes independent of it). She really does want the best for them. his is her other reason for not leaving. It is also one of my reasons for not leaving.

I have been saying for a while the discussing the R is just making us more separate and that we need to just learn how to spend time together again (This is a principle for restarting from Reconcilable Differences). Her response is three fold (it changes regularly):
1) great, we can start dating again
2) "I would never date someone as ______, as you (selfish, egotistic, uncaring, etc.)
3) she insists we discuss the R or nothing

Right now I have decided to:
1) Play games when possible - we both have busy schedules, but I aim for at least offering once or twice a week and excepting an invitation if I am not too tired, hungry, or thirsty (I will sometimes just change the last two and accept). I take this principle from recovery. I make bad choices if I am in one of those three states.
2) Remain willing to at least listen to her talk about the relationship until it gets too (heated, blaming, etc). Then I will time-out.
3) Walk away or call time-out if things are out of hand. And stick to it if she persues the discussion. (I am still learning to do this)
4) Attempt to distract or discourage her if she is out of control with the kids. The particular issue with the kids can be dealt with later, when heads are cooler.
5) Limit times in situations where actions 3 and 4 are not possible.
6) Still working on not appeasing when attacked verbally, emotionally, or religiously. This is the hardest for me because of the pain involved in not stopping the attack.
7) Start rebuilding an old friendship (it is a man so no chance of EA or PA). We talk about once a week to keep up on each others lives and to give each other support and encouragement. He is the one friend that is willing to say things like: "emotionally I would say walk away, but the right thing is probably to ________". Like all friends, he hates to see me hurting but he realizes that hurting is sometimes a necessary part of growth.
8) I have had a policy from early in our marriage to limit friendship/contact with any possible OW to superficial, public, and situation limited to avoid EA or PA. It has been a conscious (sometimes hard) choice. I am keeping this one a little tighter right now.
9) Have remade email contact with one old flame to 'make amends' (appologize) the 12 step way for things I had done. and then we both agreed that any further contact should be infrequent to avoid any distractions from our marriages. W does not know about the contact because she is extremely jealous of any contact with females. Even mentioning a female name from work is sometimes enough.
10) I have made a commitment to not let my W interfere with my 12 Step Recovery process and meeting attendance unless it is a true emergency. I made that mistake once and found myself regressing and found it difficult to restart.

Do these sound like reasonable short term goals?