HI, Jethro...sounds like you guys aren't communicating so well...are you in counseling? Sometimes that is a good place to bring up touchy issues, like "you have never had good boundaries..." that would be a hard one to hear for sure!
Another way to approach it would be to ask her does SHE worry about her boundaries. Not sure if she's being honest with you & herself yet about this. It's so hard to do. If you can somehow get the message to her that you love her and you want her to feel good about herself and you just want to help her learn about boundaries...blah, blah, blah. I dont' have a very good sense of who she is, haven't read as much as I'd like to of your sitch, but the "are you concerned about this" approach sometimes works wonders...
SBH & I had a really good and really awful (in a good way) fight via email last week. We said mean things to each other - just let loose. In therapy when we talked about it, we realized that because of email timing, we both ended up with the apology from the other person before we got the mean mean stuff. That was weird, and maybe it wouldn't have gone so well if cyberspace hadn't stepped in. But it felt pretty good to let loose. We don't do that to each other face to face. I think we maybe should sometimes...there was no name calling or anything, just raw anger being shared.
But we were able to talk & hug and forgive at the end of the day. That's the important part. Seems like your W withdraws from that kind of contact. I hope she can learn to open up to you and get the good that always comes with the bad when you love each other...
I'm going to look at the Eight Mindful Steps to Happiness book you recommended to SBH...Feeling like I'd better get my PMA up or else!!!!
Well, not sure how comfortable I feel with our "resolution" about her hanging out with divorcee and BF thing...
So, I brought my e-mail up with her a couple of times and it was hard to talk about it because of constant distractions. All in all, she wasn't angry with me. She said that she'd be more cognizant of these things, but she can't control when divorcee's "kind-of" BF comes over, and she doesn't feel comfortable saying to her friend, "is BF coming over tonight?" Then, if yes, she won't go over. Whatever. I'm sure she could find a more tactful method of avoidance, but won't put forth the effort.
I told her that I asked you guys and that most of you said she shouldn't. Wasn't sure what her reaction would be, but it was favorable. I think she actually thought about it. You see, I think she respects you guys because, one, you helped me through this crisis, and two, you encouraged me to work things out with her. SBH-SAM, I made a special point of telling her that someone in her sitch (you) also told me the same thing.
LL, yes, that was my W that said another A would likely kill her because of the stress. Thing is, I know mothers who say they'll never have another kid after the first, and within two years choose to have another because they "forget." Frankly, and this may sound harsh, but little of what she says offers me a whole lot of comfort. I guess only time will make this better. History shows me that she does not know how to set appropriate boundaries, and I'm afraid that between us, it's a difference of opinion that will never be totally resolved.
Quoting Randy:How far do I have to go back to see how and when your WAW came home? Why don't you suggest the 4 of you going out to eat or something then you can see how they treat each other.
Hey Randy, thanks for coming by. Well, all of us have gone out and the guy is nice, respectful, and conservative, but honestly, that means nothing. Feelings for another can develop over a short period of time or a long period of time. The more contact, the more likely it is to happen. The law of averages...
Quoting SBH-SAM:Another way to approach it would be to ask her does SHE worry about her boundaries.
Good thought, but I kind of asked this and I know the answer. She would say that she'd never put herself through that experience again. Also, she says she is NOT attracted to this guy and has 0 interest. My point? Doesn't matter because in a few months she might. She'll still deny it though.
Hope you guys had a great weekend. We went camping, froze our butts off, then came home a day early.
it's my opinion that if you approach someone with fear, hurt and resentment, (NOT saying that's where you're at, but maybe W sees it that way!) anyway, you're gonna get it right back in your face in the form of anger, apathy and self-righteousness
i hope, that if my H becomes uncomfortable with any of my actions, that he can come to me, calmly and say something like,
"honey? i know this might make you mad or something, and I'm sorry, but i just wanted you to know that you hanging out with other single dudes makes me uncomfortable and afraid. you don't have to say anything now, and i'd even appreciate it if you took some time to think about it and maybe get back to me about it later, if you want. no pressure, k? just needed to tell you. oh, and another thing, could you pick me up some laundry detergent next time you go to the store??"
and let that be the end of it...
time and space to mull it over
to think about goals vs. fights...
Hey, Jethro - good job on the talk with your W. I totally understand how you feel about trusting her, especially if she thinks just saying she'd never put herself through that is enough. I love the having-a-baby analogy. We (and I'm including you guys in there, too!!!) do "forget," and if we don't change our beliefs and behaviors, we are SO likely to fall back into old habits.
But, some if it you have to leave up to her to discover. In terms of understanding how she puts herself in places where boundaries can get blurred. BUT, do not stop letting her know, in your best DBing ways, the things she does that worry you. Sounds like you're doing that pretty well, and maybe need to do it a little more often?
Squeaky wheel?
How to be a squeaky wheel and not a nag...haven't quite figured that out. Maybe it's not so bad to nag for what you need sometimes....
Quoting Char:"honey? i know this might make you mad or something, and I'm sorry, but i just wanted you to know that you hanging out with other single dudes makes me uncomfortable and afraid. you don't have to say anything now, and i'd even appreciate it if you took some time to think about it and maybe get back to me about it later, if you want. no pressure, k? just needed to tell you. oh, and another thing, could you pick me up some laundry detergent next time you go to the store??"
Well, I kind of approached her the first time this way. I started with the I don't want to upset you thing, but didn't give her the opportunity to think about it and come back to me later. Perhaps I'll try this next time. Thing is, her immediate response, which is a repetition here, is that she will NEVER do this again. Frankly, I just can't believe that. If one puts themselves in certain situations, the possibility exists.
So, Char, that was my first approach and the conversation quickly died because of what she said. Then, I brought it up again a day later or so. She was absolutely livid, and I really couldn't tell you why. I guess she thought we were done with the subject, that I trusted her to make her own decisions, and that was that. She was so angry she didn't even want to talk to me. This response concerned me because the strength of it almost suggests something...but I don't want to go there as I'm just making assumptions. Thing is, she finally calmed down and we were able to talk about it, but she still took on a somewhat defiant stance.
You see, I think there's a dynamic working here (of which I just recently read in a book) that may be the cause. She is an only-child, was doted on, and almost smothered by her folks. I, on the other hand, had the opposite experience. I was the child (one of three) of a D. My folks were so wrapped up in their own dramas that I didn't get much attention. So, the dynamic here is that she tends to feel smothered easily because she was by her folks, and I tend to want to be smothered because I didn't have it so much growing up. As a result, she interprets my bringing up being uncomfortable and not wanting her to go over to divorcee's house as "controlling." The controlling thing is BS in this case, but it's the dynamic nonetheless.
Quoting SBH-SAM:But, some if it you have to leave up to her to discover. In terms of understanding how she puts herself in places where boundaries can get blurred. BUT, do not stop letting her know, in your best DBing ways, the things she does that worry you. Sounds like you're doing that pretty well, and maybe need to do it a little more often?
Perhaps you are right, SBH-SAM, that I need to both give her space to make her own decisions, but also voice my concerns. Thing is, if she behaves as she has in the past, she will still do what she wants. Admittedly, she's looking after my needs more these days, so hopefully this won't happen.
Tonight will tell, however. She usually goes over to divorcee's on Wednesday night and "BF" pays his visit. She hasn't asked/told me yet that she is going, but the day is still young. Guess I'll wait and see...
regardless of her prestiged childhood, she did something wrong and feels that she has "paid" for it, and now she doesn't want to talk about it anymore. and most certainly does not want to be "guided" by you on how to be faithful. she knows, she just has to put it into action, and she needs to test her various methods, if you will.
she put her fidelity in a MOST precarious position before and she definitely learned something from that experience
i know the books say she has to be the "giving" one here, (I have a lot of thoughts on that, not too popular, but then again, i'm not the lbs, so...)
i think, that you have to let her answer to her own conscience on that...
all you can do is voice your fears and feelings and let her conscience do the rest of the work. the more honest you are with your feelings, and only yours (no blaming, no predicting), then she'll be allowed to be honest with hers.
does that make any sense?
see, if she's mad... she have a reason to *talk* to this single man friend, seek support, comfort, advice... just friends, promise... and then... she gets mad again... more talking...
listen, i know this is unacceptable behavior, and if you DON'T accept it, you can keep starting fights about it and wreck your M... you know? if you do accept it, and convey your true self in the most gentle way possible... then SHE can come over to YOUR side... you know?
Good job for doing so much reading. SBH did that, too, I am SO BURNED OUT on learning about relationships/psychology/etc. that I don't have the energy to make myself read. But I do know a fair amount of what you guys talk about that you have read, so that helps some. And I'm in c - pay someone else to teach it to me, in a way that is specifically for me & my M!
Hoping you had a good night last night. Also, thinking maybe to remind you - you did have dinner with this divorcee's sort-of-BF and found him to be an ok guy. At least he wasn't a sleaze!
So So so So hard to trust when you've been deceived and hurt. And when you're not seeing the things you need to to believe she is completely aware of how she got where she got. You're a smart man, and I'm sure you'll keep dbing your you-know-what off until things improve!
Sounds like you could use some commiserating (SP???) from SBH...he's been taking a break from the bb, but maybe I'll tell him to just stop by your thread...
You sound a bit gloomy the past few days - maybe time to have a great evening out with your W and try to put these things aside for a little while??!!
Yes, it does. I will heed your advice and approach future situations in the manner you've mentioned. I guess, for me, she may feel as though she "paid" for it, but I don't think so. However, I know these thoughts will get US nowhere. So, I'm trying to just accept and forgive...and it's hard... I want vindication, but there is no such thing in this situation.
Quoting SBH-SAM:At least he wasn't a sleaze!
This is very true! Again, he's a good guy, but "things" happen with good guys too...
Quoting SBH-SAM:You sound a bit gloomy the past few days.
Yeah, you're right and I need to stop.
So, I have to say that my W must have listened. She didn't go over to divorcee's house last night because BF would be there. In fact, we had a brief discussion about OM and her A last night where she was pretty sweet, I have to say. She said, "I meant it when I told you OM isn't half the man you are." I don't know why exactly she said it, but it was nice to hear. I thanked her...
So, SBH-SAM, I'm going to try and get myself out of this mini-slump...
Quoting charcoal: all you can do is voice your fears and feelings and let her conscience do the rest of the work. the more honest you are with your feelings, and only yours (no blaming, no predicting), then she'll be allowed to be honest with hers.
does that make any sense?
This essentially is the underlying principal that strengthens the bond built on respect. A requirement for any good R.
