Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums We're separated--What Now? Reclaiming myself and my life

My opinion -
I think your W is scared, unsure, feeling unloved, and her future is in jeopardy if she stays with you. Of course there is a lot of me projected into that statement but here's why I say that. My H is self employed, he wants to be his own boss. Ok, fine. I supported his decision. When he is 'on his game' the money was great. When he gets tired or hurt, the income takes a hit, right down to where he has had no income. Ouch!

Financial stress creates guilt and distance.
Guilt and distance creates walls and fences.
Walls and fences create lonely and unloved.
Lonely and unloved create need and vulnerability.
How does your W fill her needs and vulnerability?
How do YOU fill your need and vulnerability?
Mars and Venus.
She finds someone to make her feel good and feed her emotions and she is ready to run away.
You dive into your work to save the day and the family and that should bring her back.

I think you are spot on here Frank. I know you want insight into what your W is thinking but you are a clever man and know that there could be many explanations for any of your W's actions. Too sift through them all looking for answers is a fruitless and painful experience. I can understand your W talking about leaving and running away - not because of you - but just because as a family you are in a tight spot and to run away and forget would be a comfort to her - I have felt like that on many an occasion. Thing is - it's not an alternative for most of us - and even though your W MAY TALK about it you don't know for certain that it is an alternative for her. It might just be that thinking and voicing those thoughts are what gets her through her day.

So I guess I am suggesting that instead of picking up on every last detail of her behaviour, try and block it out like it was background or 'white' noise - for your own sanity.

I know you can't ignore the financial state of things - and nor should your W, (to buy another copy of a book you already had in your house was just ludicrous when money is tight)- but can't you try to ignore the EA? If it's something you can't actually do anything about at the moment, worrying yourself over it doesn't achieve anything apart from perhaps detract from your ability to function at greater strength in other areas of your life.




It was so good to read this........to see you voice this realisation that it is getting you too worked up.

To all...I make the same request as bworl. Frank_d has made OUR LIVES more important than his own...and probably to the detriment of his M. Imagine all the time lost from all the phone calls he fielded from us and all the sitch's he followed. He probably should have been spending more time on himself and his M than he did on all of us. Although where I am in MY sitch is dark and gloomy, I wouldn't be as 'good' as I was if it weren't for he and others.

Yes...frank can get pissy. I almost left a phone call on him..but..he knows when he is and he apologized...and respect him for it. Having gone thru my own financial crisis (and most likely with more to come), I know what it is like to feel helpless and lost.

There have been quite a handful of people with whom I've 'bumped heads with', yet, they almost all stayed with me and I love and respect them for that. Isn't that the power of the people who are here? They have the unique ability to look at themselves and say "I need to change". They have the compassion to stay thru utter hell to save their marriages. The can 'electronically' put their arms on our shoulders and say "I feel your pain but I am here and I care."

Frank_d is going thru what we all have, not only for a second time but now faced with D.

Someone get amyC back please...amyC..PLEASE hang here. Let's stick with frank. I know I will. He saved my life.



FIB

How's it going Frank?

I'm doing fine. Got a few $$ from various clients today and I'm working on some projects to get some more.

I think I'm getting past the 'anger' phase. There have been some interactions with W yesterday and today that have reached a peak.

I'll post them along with my counselor's visit. Please don't reply with 'Stop focusing on your W!'

I don't. These things are just events. I'm almost done recovering from all the shocks and I know I'll be better soon.

Here goes...

Saw my counselor today and we talked about the things that have happened over the past week or so. The 'talk' I had with W about how I hated the way things are, how I felt like I was alone in fixing the financial stuff. Her reactions, or lack of them. And her EA.

I 'defend' W all the time, and counselor says when I look at her, I see the 80% that is good. But when she looks at me she sees the 20% that she perceives is 'bad', and ignores the 80% that is good. She then decides that her life isn't going the way she wants it to because of that 20%, and she doesn't want to put any real work into ME to fix it so she looks for the easy way out. And it's always another man who gives her some kind of emotional support so she can leave. Someone who 'coaches' her out of the marriage.

Her closest friends are the same way. They are the kind of people who don't have successful relationships. That's who she attracts. People who are like her.

And that 80% of Frank that is 'good' is way better than a lot of men who have 'problems' like the ones I've had.

She was not and has never been an 'abused' wife. What she has been is the wife of a man who has been trying to carry the emotional weight of his own stress, and the weight of her 'need' for him to 'take care of things' even when he's totally incapable without some help.

Counselor asks me "When did she put her EMOTIONAL energy into the relationship? As in taking responsibility for the marriage or for her husbands well being?" How is it that she has the energy NOW to do all these things to expand her business and social network for HERSELF but didn't when the family needed it.

Two years ago she stepped outside the marriage and had an affair. She broke the covenant of the marriage contract. Yet I was there for her because I saw the good, and saw that she was being reactive and destructive to herself. I went through all the pain and hurt while she did this, and after she crashed and saw the mistake she made, I accepted her back into the marriage believing she was able to be a grown up partner. THAT is unconditional love.

As Counselor said, "right now your marriage and your family needs HER to be putting her energy into her KIDS and her HUSBAND". Instead she's putting it into other things, her EA, her 'friends' and her need to make more money to take care of HERSELF. Selfish? Narcissitic?

And she said to me over and over that she'd love me and stick it out with me as I was going through my stuff. But after it got too hard, she decided she was 'done'. That's CONDITIONAL LOVE.

If we were to 'get back together' what would really change? She'll still be emotionally immature, and expect me to 'fix things'. Counselor said 'do you ever notice that she seems to "orbit" around you and your ability to keep things "safe" for her?' Yes, I do notice that.

Counselor said that in many ways MY growth has been hindered by W. How I am waiting for her to 'catch up'. She gave an example of how many times have I had to 'coach' her into doing something new or risky. Something that would help her grow? I was supportive of her becoming a massage therapist years ago when she didn't feel confident in herself. I supported her even when she had OM/PA and HELPED her get her own massage office space! Unconditional Love.

Counselor suggested that people like me and like Counselor understand that a marriage vow is a sacred promise and we take it seriously. That we will do ANYTHING to help our spouse through a tough time. Anything. Put OURSELVES on the line if need be. W has never gone that extra mile. She stays 'stuck' in fear or inaction because it's uncomfortable.

She pointed out that during the past year I was slowly declining emotionally and in December when W was away I was on the verge of an emotional collapse. The ONLY think W did during this time was to keep putting the burden back on me, as in 'when are YOU going to fix yourself?'. Never putting the emotional effort into taking charge and working to help get us through this.

She asked me how many times did I have to lower my expectations to her level so I could try to lift her up to mine? I did it lovingly but was it really healthy for me? How many times did I have to live at her level of 'spirituality' that seems to include selective morality?

And the most important thing of all. Why have I felt so alone the past year? If I had a real partnership I wouldn't have felt alone. I would have felt like I had a PARTNER who would bear some of the burden. That just never happened. Instead she has chosen to violate our marriage contract again.

As I look around I see that everything she is doing is geared towards her and her need to 'grow'. Books, tapes, 'energy work' and other stuff. All about her growth. All about her. Even D17 said to me the other day that 'mom sure has gotten a social life recently' and she was pretty sarcastic. She also told me she thinks mom is shallow when they talk about her teenager issues. Counselor said that W projects her own life onto D17 and tells he what she should do, which is why D17 doesn't relate to her. When I talk to D17 I listen to her and give observations but never tell her what she should do. As a result D17 has a better relationship with me than she does with W. Counselor says thats another sign of her self centeredness - her need to 'tell' D17 how to live instead of respecting her.

So, counselor suggested that if divorce does happen that I file, I be the plantiff. Why? Because she said it would be better for D12 and D17 if Dad was in control of the process. They've seen their mom leave dad twice now and having the legacy of her leaving again would make them hate her more.

I mentioned to counselor something that Spitfire said to me. "If she is so freakin' "spiritual" why has she never been able to tune in to YOUR needs? Guess she's an ace at figuring out when there is "heavy energy or negative vibes" in the room. She just falls down a bit when it comes to being compassionate to the man she chose to marry." Counselor said this: Because YOU are able to do this so she hasn't had to.

The final thing that C said that I have to think about is this. I'm getting older and I need to get myself back to the man, the Frank, that can take care of things. The grown up Frank. Otherwise she fears I'll get sick or something and there'll be nobody to take care of the kids. Or worse, they'll have to take care of me.

She said "how long do you want it to hurt?". She thinks I should have her served with something, some kind of notice. I don't know what I could do, C doesn't think a divorce / separation filing would be published in the paper. I don't want the girls to hear about this from someone else who reads it in the paper.

Slept on the couch last night. W gets up at 6:30 like normal and I get up and bring the blanket to the downstairs bedroom. As I walk by she says "I'm sorry I left stuff on the bed downstairs so you couldn't sleep in it". I said "I wouldn't sleep in that bed if my life depended on it."

As I went upstairs she said something to me, I forgot what, and I just said "So, did you get your morning text message from Jeffy?" and she just said "NO!".

I went to 'our' room to change clothes. She came up a few minutes later and said "Is there something you need to talk to me about?"

She was calm, detached.

Me: You mean so you can 'fix me' or something? No. But I would like to say that I have some issues with you, like integrity, honesty, commitment, responsibility, selfishness (and some other words)

L: Oh, yes, I'm the one who is doing everything 'wrong' and you're the one that's perfect.

Me: I didn't say that. I said how I'm feeling about you and this situation.

L: So you can't sleep with me any more? Then I guess we better tell the kids and I'll move downstairs.

Me: Actually I would do better if you just moved out. I expect you'll be out of here by june.

L: Maybe I'll stay in the house and you'll move out. We havent' decided yet. I ask a mediator what we should do.

Me: There's no way you can get enough financial support from me to keep this house if I move out. If that happens we lose everything.

L: Well you'll have to buy out my share of the house.

Me: I don't know if you're paying attention but there is no equity left. The market has destroyed that and with taxes and other stuff we're probably lucky to be 'even'. We can't both leave this house behind it would be too financially destructive.

L: I don't think you can keep it anyway. How are you going to be able to afford it?

Me: It won't matter if you are here or not, I've been carrying all the debt myself anyway. Losing your income won't make a difference. I'm slowly rebuilding my income and I'll make this WORK.

L: It seems like you need to hate me to get through this break up.

Me: I don't need to hate you, I'm angry that you're still carrying on with another affair in front of me and I will NOT go through that again with you. I did that once before and it nearly destroyed me.

L: You don't know what's going on. Have you checked my text messages? (She erases them).

Me: No I don't check your phone. But you know eventually his W is going to look at their phone bill and see the log of the messages and it's going to destroy them. Unless she is aware of your great 'friendship' already. Is she?

L: I don't have to explain anything to you.

Me: No? Tell me there's nothing going on there, that it isn't an affair, that his W is all OK with this.

L: (silent)

Me: You're putting all this energy into relationships with other men when you should be putting it into your husband and your family.

L: (angry, crying a little now) I put energy into you, I've loved you deeper than anyone ever in my life and you won't let me through. You keep this barrier up and you're like a prickly pear. I feel so much better because when I'm not at home I can have relationships with others who can love me back. But I come home and I feel oppressed. I read an old letter you wrote to me 18 years ago when I left you then and you wewre telling me how you were in some counseling and were working on your 'little boy' issues of accepting love. You're still the same. You're toxic to me because I need you to let me love you and to love me back and you just won't let yourself be loved. (Note: I wrote that letter because I was still in the 'blame frank' mindset and figured at the time that she left because of something I had done. Later I found out she had sleeping with other guys and had other emotional issues going on)

L: I'm sorry I've hurt you so many times by leaving and coming back but I've never had the strength to leave you because I never thought I would be ok on my own. Now I'm going to be ok. I have couches lined up to sleep on if I have to but I'll be ok.

Me: You're right, we do have issues trusting each other. It's been hard for me to trust you enough to be totally vulnerable. But I have loved you unconditionally, even through your affair I gave you unconditional love, I lived through that pain and I took you back. And look at what It got me, I lost my self along the way.

L: Oh, yes you're the victim here. You're always the victim. You give and I take and then you're a victim. You're so much more evolved than me.

Me: That's not what I'm saying. When we decided to get back together we spent about a month 'waiting' for one of us to 'do something' and I finally took the initiative and started reaching out to you more, making you feel comfortable in the relationship. It's always me who does that. Who worries about the 'fixing'.
And then when I stop trying, you start to withdraw and then I have to work on making you feel comfortable again.

L: Yeah, that's what you do. I try to love you and you won't trust me enough to let me. Then you see I'm withdrawing and you get scared so you have to fix it. But you don't let me in and I need that. And I get that from other relationships so that's what I have to do is leave and be on my own so I can get that.

Me: You know, I've been through a lot of really difficult situations in the past many years where I've felt like withdrawing and I really NEEDED you to get through that shell. But you don't do whatever it takes to get through to me. Because it's TOO HARD for you.

L: Frank, it's impossible for me to get past that wall you build. Nobody can.

Me: That's not true. Other women I've been in relationships with have not had the kinds of problems you and I have had with being connected when I'm in a difficult place, under stress. You've been the only one who has always run away from me when times get tough for me. (Note: Old Girlfriend Janet could get past my 'shield' in an instant. She had determination along with love)

Me: I know it's probably a lot to do with you issues with your Dad and I see a lot of the same behaviors in you that Your Dad and your brother have when it comes to relationship difficulties. And eventually you give up and look elsewhere for that emotional validation.

L: (angry and a little tearful) Yes, I did. I looked outside and had my affair because I felt like I was loving you and not getting anything in return. I was drowning and I needed to get away. And even then I didn't have the courage to leave you. Well I don't WANT to be married to anybody. I'm going through my 'process' of growing and trying to heal myself and become independent so I don't need you, so I can let you go. I don't care if you think my methods are crazy (I never said anything about it) but it's how I have to do it. I'm doing things that are helping me learn to love myself.

Me: Yes, I see you're reading "If love is a game, these are the rules (Cheri Carter Scott)".

L: Yeah, I read that stupid book and I saw her chapters on commitment and long term relationships and she says you need to be able to work through tough times but she also says that if you're not growing you have to leave the relationship. (Note: She says that in her earlier sections about DATING, not marriage. I am here in my office, so I was going to grab my copy which has been sitting on top of a pile of books under my desk in fairly plain view. It's gone. I looked for it but couldn't find it anywhere. So I went to look at her copy of the book and realized it was MINE. She had bought her own a week ago at the church, and mine was old and had some water stains on it so I recognized it was mine! How weird that she would take it and not tell me. And what did she do with the one she bought?)

Me: You're right, maybe we're toxic. But that's because we're not communicating and getting counseling that we need.

L: See, you're just saying whatever you have to say to try to make me come back. I'm letting you go and living my life for ME.

Me: No, I'm just telling you what I'm seeing. I understand you need to do what you need to do.

There was more. But basically her positions are these:

We're toxic together. She has tried to love me but I won't let her. When I say that I have had a lot of pressure and haven't felt safe with her because I feel like I have to keep giving to keep her happy she says that I'm always trying to please her and she needed me to let her love me and be loved back. When I explained that I need her to stop withdrawing when I'm feeling alone she says that 'nobody' can get through the wall I put up.

When I talk about the past situations where I'm overwhelmed with life and pressure and I need her support she goes back and says she tried, but I push her away or don't 'let her in'.

Finally, she said she doesn't want a relationship with anybody right now, just herself. She said that she started to realize that her 'text message' friend was moving in the wrong direction and is 'taking care of that'.

Bottom line with her is "Frank won't let me love him and doesn't return the love in the 'deep way' that she has loved me." Whenever we're together we're toxic for each other. When I tell her that I have a lot of trust issues because of things she has not done to make me feel the 'love' she says it's because I won't let myself feel the love.

As far as me, I haven't felt like I can trust her because I've always felt like I have to take care of her feelings and since she has abaondoned me 4 times now when things are not going the way she thinks they should and she's unhappy long enough. I want to get past that and want us both to be in the same place. Obviously there was a time with her where I did feel the love from her. It's the times when it's been overwhelming in life and where she doesn't come through when I need her to that I feel alone.

She sees use together as never happening. She's happier when she's not in the house, or the marriage.

She wants to tell the kids now and get moving with a separation.

I just am tired of the fight. Not sure what to do now.

I talked to my friend Richie who, when I mentioned the 'You won't let me love you, etc, etc' said "Well, thanks a F'ing lot for telling you NOW when she is 'done' instead of 6 months ago when you could have DONE something about it."

In fairness, I said that she has sometimes said that she 'needs me to let her do loving things for me', in fact you may recall that the week between when she got back from Rome where she was 'unsure' about what she wanted (and was texting her friend) she had said something like that to me at lunch. But it was a casual comment, NOT a 'I NEED this from you or WE can't be together!'.

It has never been that kind of comment, a 'life or death of the relationship' comment.

Anyway, I decided that I don't want to live with the anger, and the back and forth mean attitudes. So when she came back from work a short while ago I went and talked with her and said that I didn't hate her, I don't want to hate her and that I want to get along till June. I also said that I cannot and will not expose myself to her having affairs with other men while she's living here. She said she'd also do her best to get along with me.

I opened my arms, and then gave her a hug.

I started to walk away and she said "what do you think we should do about custody of the kids? I don't think you should have sole custody"

So I said "Well, I have no intention of keeping them from you and shared custody is fine."

L: Yeah, but I might only end up with a one bedroom apt and we'd all sleep in the same room. I don't think it's fair because I'm the one who knows all the kids routines, I guess you could learn them. But you have to promise me if you are having a night when you are DRINKING again that you'll let them call me and I can come and get them so they don't feel unsafe if you are 'checked out' like that.

Me: I don't ever intend on allowing that into my life again. I know how I end up that way and I'm never going through those emotional cycles again.

L: Maybe not, but you might find yourself feeling like it and I think the girls should be able to call me if they need me.

Me: Lorri, they should be able to call you ANY TIME if they feel like they need you. Maybe they need a hug, maybe they just need their mom. They're 12 and 17 now, I think they can make choices like that and I'd never try to stop them (I never have so far, why would I start?).

L: Well, I'd never stop them from calling you if they need you either.

L: Why should I be the one to move out, like I'm being punished for not wanting to be married any more. Why don't I stay in the house and you get an apt?

Me: Because it costs a lot to keep this house and I'm more likely to afford it.

L: But if we sold it we'd get some money, I saw houses for $xxx for sale that aren't as nice as ours. You'd have to buy me out or something since we share the debt we have.

Me: That's true, but just because the houses are LISTED for $xxx doesn't mean they'll be sold. AT best we'd have $50k to split after selling this house, most likely we'd have $25k but there's a stronger possibility we'd really get little or nothing beyond the sale price. House prices are still going down, not up.

L: Well, I could keep it if I had a roommate and you paid support, although I know you won't have to pay much because of your financials.

Me: (I explained about debt, transfer of assets, other stuff. She kept going back to how she didn't think she had to move out, that it should be me. She wants to be 'mom' and stay with the girls. I kept saying that to do that would take a lot more money than she has, and more than she could get from me. That if we sold the house and actually got some money it would be a short term gain but in the long term we both lose.)

L: Well, I guess our financial situation is a reflection of the [censored] that was our relationship.

Me: (stopping for a moment, then saying this quietly) Lorri, our relationship wasn't all [censored]. It was a lot of good stuff. We found ourself in a lot of [censored] and didn't handle it properly.

L: I didn't mean it was all [censored], I meant we got ourselves into this financial [censored]. This is the way it turned out and now we're done and picking up the pieces of our lives.

Me: Everything can be changed Lorri, everything can be changed.

Then I left to go take a shower. I'm back in my office working now. Life goes on.

Frank I am still pondering your email from earlier but I will say something about THIS:



Your financials are a reflection of her lack of willingness to be a contributing partner IN the marriage. I'm also not falling for all the lines she's throwing your way either. I have heard them before. When I myself said them among other things designed to deflect my husbands growing wisdom of how screwed my head REALLY was.

Again, a liability.

One that spins some good BS mind you, but a liability nevertheless.