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A woman who is still a damaged little girl. She wasn't 'healed', just brought back into the safety net. I wasn't 'healed', just fixing again.

She's seen a lot of my anger, my frustration and been hurt by it. Her natural reaction is to run.

Here is something odd that has me thinking. after she had our second daughter (12 years ago) she put on about 50 pounds and has pretty much stayed that way. she has never been in that physical state until then which was also during the time when I was building my company and not around a lot.

During the affair and OM she lost about 15 pounds and was telling me at the time how she "couldn't lose the weight because she was unhappy and holding on to it, and now that she had 'let go' of me and my issues she could love her body again".

After her 'crash' and us reconciling she put the weight back on even though we were pretty 'happy' then.

Yesterday she tells me how she's finally learning to love her body again and is exercising more now and losing weight.

I keep thinking back to how she cycles and how it relates to me. While she's in this 'I don't like my body / myself' mode she says it's because of our relationship. I I also feel bad because I don't like her being overweight because she wasn't like that and I blame myself for it.

It's very confusing, our dynamic.

I'm trying to take responsibility and say that I haven't been a man who hasn't done whatever it takes to heal himself. As a result I've been angry hurt, medicated and generally a lot like AmyC's husband. I've been trapped in this cycle where I can seem ok for a while, then get so overwhelmed with anxiety that I can't see straight.

She's taken a lot of hurt when I'm at my worst, and after over a year of this she's tired and wants some happiness. She sees 'glimpses' of it when some other guy gives her some complements and seems to think that it's out there instead of here. And of course all new age books and spiritual practices tell you to seek your path no matter what.

Yeah, it goes against a lot of 'till death do us part' but as a kid I witnessed my Grandfather go through about 8 years of hell with my Grandmother until she died and he was free.

She witnessed her grandmother go through a similar, but less intense fate with her grandfather also.

So, I understand why we are both the way we are. and of course her friends are typical of most of america - if you aren't happy and your husband doesn't seem to want to change and you've 'waited' long enough then it's ok to move on.

I guess I'm trying to give her a break.

I know it's very 'knee jerk' for those who only see my 'good side' to want to defend me. Remember that you're only hearing my side. She hurts too.

Right now I fell very anxious, scared of this falling apart - not so much because I can't live without her but because I've been in so much pain for so long that I don't really feel like I can absorb it again. I have so many things I need to be doing to get us out of this financial hole and I wish I could say to her "Hey, I get it! I have to save MYSELF now. But I could REALLY use the comfort of knowing that you're really going to stick around and that I can feel safe in our relationship!"

Yeah, I'm angry, but do I really have a right to be angry at her? I mean, she's not like me, she loves me but isn't strong enough to 'stand up to me' when I'm hurt and angry I guess.

she could come up with many 'but he did this and he does that and I cry and...' responses to anything that criticizes her actions.

I really believe it still comes down to this: The only one who can take care of me - is me. In my marriage I cannot ask my wife to be something she isn't. She's grown a lot and I see it but she still doesn't have the skills to help me get out of my hole, only I do.

Where I'm still stuck is on the 'letting go'. Today she talked about us taking Salsa classes again. We did last September but she broke her foot. Now it's starting up again and she says this morning "Classes are starting soon and they said they would give 'us' a discount since we missed classes". She didn't say 'do you want to sign up?' so I said 'I wonder if they will give ME a discount since I didn't want to go without you and I missed classes'. She said probably not since she had a broken foot.

Salsa classes were very important to her, something she really liked and I made a special effort to go to them in September.

I mentioned that maybe I should get some Salsa shoes and she said "I was looking for some for you for xmas but couldn't find any".

I thought to myself 'this is weird since she told me the other day she was going to tell me she was _done_ in november'. She knows I would never take Salsa on my own.

Anyway, we talked about shoes and stuff and it was pleasant.

Talked about some changes I am making in our businesses and how they may improve our cash flow and she said 'so maybe we'll get some steady paychecks soon?'. so, I guess she still hasn't decided to step out of the relationship - she just hasn't decided if staying is viable.

A couple of times I complemented her on her clothes this morning and she said 'Thanks Hon' but in the 'detached' voice. No hugs or kisses today.

She's going to her friends overnight to do some massages. This is the friend who will support her no matter what and has been around the longest. 40 years old and never been in a relationship but had divorced parents who are 'happier' apart.

Very strange dynamics. I wish there was a way to erase the hurt I've been in so long and detach, focus and be happy just to be me and not feel the other stuff related to her. Or maybe I'd be better off to just let her go because maybe being afraid of not doing the right thing for her might be part of my problems. She's already shown me that, like most women, if I become a total basket case she won't be forceful enough to do something to help me, and eventually she'll get scared and run away.

But then, maybe I need to find out how to stop myself from falling down any more. This has been that hardest challenge of my life.

I just don't know.

I am still mulling over your sitch, Frank and trying to come up with a post you can actually do something constructive with...

Are you still seeing your counselor?

No, can't afford it. Besides, I know what she would say. It's doing it that's hard.

barf

Frank,

I have spent a good portion of the afternoon and this evening thinking about your situation. It does make me angry because I can not fathom a woman who has had a man fight so hard for her NOT stepping up to the plate when he needs someone to NOT TO FIGHT FOR HIM but just to stand beside him and believe in him. I don't see your wife really doing that but I do see you still making excuses for the fact that she is not. That's not going to be acceptable forever Frank because you CAN'T absorb the issues that are hers alone to overcome. I have lost a lot of respect for your wife and I am sorry if that is conveyed in this post to you. I know her background and I understand many of her battles but Frank, how long will it be okay for her to stand behind those crutches and not expect more of herself? It is NOT wrong for you to expect more FROM her. For Christ's sake, you are VOCALIZING what you need and she just STANDS THERE??!! I can't wrap my mind around that, Frank, I'm sorry.

The first obstacle I see you needing to overcome is a basic one, Frank. But it is a very effective one. It is fear. You said it yourself, you are afraid of not being able to be what she needs you to be. When the hell is someone going to be afraid they aren't what YOU need???? No. This is about give AND take. I recognize it because I used to be the taker, Frank. As of late I am the giver. Either end of that stick can suck if the other person is no more than a sponge and again I am sorry, but your wife sucks up more energy than she appears - at this time at least - to be worth.

As you can tell, I'm still angry to discover this current state of your relationship and I am trying to get above it but every time I start typing, it comes back. I guess I'm just gonna have to keep apologizing... I know you recognize that I get angry on your behalf because you and I go way back. You have helped me bounce back many times in more ways than one. I wish I knew how to help you so here's my stab at it:

I think you need one of those men's retreats that COG has mentioned in the past. You need to go on a search and recovery mission, my friend. The objective: Locate your balls! I think your self-esteem is in the toilet. It has suffered not only the blows on the relationship end of things but also from the business end. You need a breather. You ought to be the one taking a night out. Actually a weekend. You're a type-A personality and even they have to recharge. Oh, it doesn't happen often... Type A's run longer, harder and tend to dig deeper and expect more of themselves than the general population. But when Type A's fall Frank, they fall hard. You need to circumvent that if it is possible. To accomplish that, I think you need to throw a bag in the car and split for 2 or 3 days. Hell, maybe a week. You need some Frank time. Screw the wife. She's capable and if she doesn't believe that, then this is a damn fine time for her to find out for herself that she IS.

I don't want to hear about her whining.
Or her dismissals.
Or her hemming and friggin hawing.
Or her blasted massages.
Or the girls.
Frank, sometimes it is possible to TALK TOO MUCH.

Dude, go cast a line in a lake somewhere.
Go hiking, have a look-see at a museum, sit on a friggin cliff and meditate BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DO SOMETHING. Get off your butt, Frank. Take off the thinkin' cap and get to know yourself again. Not as husband, not as father, not as business man. Get to know Frank.

Now that's about the nicest version I have of my FIND YOUR FREAKIN BALLS speach, Frank.

Next time, I'm going to be mean.

Now what are you going to do?

Because I'm sure it's not what I have suggested...

But Amy, I've really been losing it, I get angry, I was drinking to get away from the anxiety, similar to your husband except I got angry, asking her why, why couldn't she help me?

She just isn't someone who can take that, but the 'support' was never very much. I mean, you eventually left your husband for similar reasons.

Yeah, I 'fought for her' but obviously I didn't fight for me and now she's been through another year of 'lost frank' and it's hurt her too much so that she has withdrawn and is trying to figure out what to do for herself.

I don't know what to say. She tries. It's me who is losing it. I'm sorry.

But don't you think that maybe there is a side of me you are ignoring? Sometimes I'm not very nice when I'm hurting. She isn't someone who can absorb that kind of stuff forever.



I guess I wish I would have said something a long time ago, but I don't want to let people down.

Yeah, I went on one two years ago during the affair and it did me a world of good.

She is very capable of taking care of things. She's not weak, she's just not able to stand for me when I'm hurt, angry and just stuck and medicating.

Yeah. I need to get a life.

And you and others are right, I make a lot of excuses for her. But what about me? I haven't done my best, I've been in this hole for a while and she hates it, and doesn't know what to do to help me. Now I'm 'motivated' partly because I had already HAD ENOUGH and was willing to do anything after I spent the week alone when she and my D17 went to Rome with the band. I had nobody to talk to and I was just in high anxiety. I took down all the photos on my office wall and put up new ones of just my W and I, or the kids and I, so I could reaffirm to myself what really matters. I showed her this when she got back, after she told me she 'didn't think we could stay together'.

I had my awakening and I was really hopeful she'd come back and we'd work together to get out of this mess. Instead she starts to get confused about the fact that she can make 'connections' with other men she meets and does that make her a bad person? Then she thinks maybe she is meant to go find new experiences since we don't seem to be able to fix ours.

If you knew her, you'd see she is a gentle soul who has been in a tempest because of me. I see this as all about me now, all about saving ME because until that is done, nothing else will matter.

Now I REALLY need her but she's pretty much shut me out. She comes home this evening and passes by me to put something in the sink, then turns and gives me a peck on the lips. She goes to her friends house to do a massage and afterwards calls me to see how the girls are (they are both sick) and I say 'talk to you later, love you' and she says 'see you later'.

Please just be careful when you are defending me. I'm not perfect.

But I do agree with you, no matter how I look at things I keep thinking to myself 'why didn't you do whatever it takes to help ME?'.

But then again, I shouldn't have expected her to, I should have helped myself.

Most of the advice I'm getting is similar to yours. Just let her go, be nice, let her come to you if she wants to but just let her go. Take care of yourself because until that's fixed nothing will work in your life.

You know, Frank...I really didn't want to go here.
I scanned the earlier posts looking for you to say you were drinking. If you had written it, I must have missed that. That changes things considerably. And yeah, I get the "mean" part.

So here's where that puts me.
Remember when Jeff came home that first time?
He had it ALL going on.
He was sober, in AA, even in anger management (albeit court-ordered, he appeared to be getting a lot out of it). He stood for another 15 months, sober and sleeping on the couch, because I was still in MLC and just sinking deeper. I had moments though. Moments when I tried to get and keep my head out of my ass. It is those moments that are still thrown up in my face every now and then. At that time, Jeff was getting straight to save the marriage. It played so well, though. Til about 12 months into it when I started seeing signs he was drinking again. I snooped out back, found beer on the back porch. I'd find his cans/bottles in the toter (trash can that we roll to the street every week). Of course, in my state of mind, HE blew it. Not that I'd given him anything to "blow". He just took all he could and he reverted back to what he knew, to the dysfunction that fit him like a second skin (God, I know I am supposed to be seeing something in this...) and I jumped on that opportunity to get him out of the house that second time. He broke because he had no support system, Frank. And he doesn't know how to be his own friend. What I now know is since then, Jeff has never gotten back on the wagon. That was 3/2005. In his quest to get his license back last year, he played the system and because he also fooled me, he walked away with my daughter as the prize. He doesn't feel like a winner though. I know that much. Neither do you.

I can not help you while you are drinking, Frank. Doesn't matter if you are under the influence tonight or not. If you are of that mindset - the one of escape and self-medicating - it hits too close to home. I'll tell you what I know though and that is this: If you think you are down NOW, keep drinking (I don't care if it's weekly, you have said you had a drinking problem) and alcohol will take you farther down than you want to go and it will keep you there longer than you are willing to stay.

You now have an opportunity few have the tools to rise to:
You can be your own hero.

You have the tools.
You just need to decide that you are worth it.

And Frank, you ARE worth it.

Allow yourself a break.

Introduce yourself to Frank_D..

It can do wonders for the soul...


Amy

Yes, I got that lesson now. As I said, I stopped that a couple weeks ago because I was just sick and tired of the cycle.

So I guess now you get it, and my wife is justified in her actions. I guess I lose.

And yeah, I had no support system either. I was hoping she would be it but I was mistaken. After all, she was HEALED now. What a mistake.

Your wife is not justified, Frank.
You're the one that keeps trying to justify her lack of "ability" to support you. I personally lean towards it being a lack of willingness because she's lazy and selfish and has a false sense of entitlement but hey maybe it's just me...

And don't you dare zero in on that one quote of mine, Frank_D.
You're gonna have to get up a whole lot earlier in the morning if you're going to try that bullsh*t song and dance with this girl.


So your wife sucks at being supportive.
Hell, maybe she sucks all the way around.
What if she does?

How does that let you off the hook as far as your responsibility to yourself, Frank?

And what about your responsibility to your daughters?
You owe it to your daughters to get your sh*t together by whatever means necessary. No matter how much blood, sweat and tears it requires. They are looking at you and deciding what kind of men to pick to be their husbands. If the way you are right now would not make an acceptable son-in-law, I suggest you find the man inside you that is.

Take a break, Frank.
Go on a little mini-vacation.

I can't believe I'm about to utter this stupid phrase but...

Go find yourself.

It's your TURN.
Not preemptions this time, either.
Finish the job.