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(cozy) i know that i have to train myself to be something i am not

(Lil) I definitely do NOT believe this is true.

Basically, I think Lil's right. But...

(cozy) i really don't like acting like i just don't care about her, or that i have no feelings for her, or that i just look away from her not allowing myself to grab and make-out with her, or tell her how beautiful and sexy and what a milf she is. this just isn't me.

...you have to figure out if you're doing these things to show love or to get love. Your level of resentment when she doesn't give you back what you want would indicate you do stuff like this to get love, and that won't work.


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sat567 #1327303 01/15/08 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: hairdog
Except cats behave like cats because that's just how they are. You are behaving like a cat because you want to see how she'll react. The word for that is "manipulation." You are behaving a certain way to achieve an outcome that is still entirely dependent on her.

I don't think that's what balto was suggesting.

Hairdog


No, I was suggesting that he do what he wants when he wants it. If he feels like offering up affection, do it. But do it for himself without the covert contract that he should get something in return. It is natural to expect someone to react as we ourselves would react but in order to follow the NMMNG tenets, you need to do the action for yourself, not to get the reaction you desire.


Gone the carvings and those who left their mark.
Gone the kings and queens, now only the rats hold sway.
Baltoman #1327326 01/15/08 02:21 PM
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First step, is to figure out what exactly you do like to do with yourself, irrespective of how others will react to it. For a lot of people, this is the hardest part - they're so used to performing for their audience that they don't really know what they want to do with themselves. This is why getting a life is so important - it forces you to separate from your audience and see what feels good and what doesn't when you're on your own.

Second step is to stop apologizing for whatever it is you discover in step 1 (unless it's actively harmful, in which case you repeat step 1 until you find something that isn't harmful to self or others. There's bound to be something - things that are harmful to yourself only feel good in relation to something you're trying to force out of your mind, and forcing things out of your mind is the wrong goal in any event. And things that are harmful to others are generally pointless to you unless you're trying to get a reaction out of them. Or stealing from them, but hopefully you learned not to do that in kindergarten.)

Once you've got these things down and you're generally happy with yourself, someone will eventually react in ways you like. At which point your job is to stick with it. When you've gotten used to getting affection whenever you do one of your new behaviors, and you're in the mood that you really want affection, don't use your new behavior to get it. I'm not saying don't display your new behavior at that time, but that's not a lever to push to get rewarded... that's the kind of thinking that got you in this jam to begin with. Just let her know, simply and directly (although it doesn't have to be in words) that you want some attention. All that "covert contract" stuff has been a way to avoid letting her know you want something that you picked up the idea that you're not supposed to ask for. Wherever you picked up that idea, get rid of it... you're supposed to ask for what you want from your partner, and not play silly games to "provoke" her into giving it to you. You're supposed to ask, and she's supposed to give it to you of her own free will sometimes. And vice versa.


a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
Baltoman #1327333 01/15/08 02:32 PM
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ok. i now understand. i understand the manipulation part, and i really never saw it that way, but you are correct: it is a way of manipulation, and that's wrong on my part.

but the way i have been acting has been going on for over 15 years. i am always showing affection, but somewhere, somehow showing affection and not expecting anything in return use to be accepted, and now when i don't get anything in return, i get angry, frustrated, worried that intimacy will never happen again.

in other words, i use to be able to understand that if i act romantically today, and not get anything in return, there's always tomorrow, or the next day, or the weekend. now it's become an unknown, never knowing anything is going to happen, or even that if it doesn't happen this week, which week will it happen?

it use to be a day or two, or even 5 and then bang!! we were together. now it's become an unknown, an indefinite, that's where all of the angst and frustration and resentment comes in.


knowing that it was going to happen withing the next few days was securing; now knowing that if i don't get it this sat. then i have to wait until the following sat. and that no longer becomes a definite, because life gets in the way!

that's the problem: being able to go about my life acting romantic, and giving, and loving, and sensual and still be completely happy when i don't get anything in return. that's the place i lost. how do i get it back?

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Cozy if you feel good being a cat then be a cat. If you don't then don't. Don't worry about how she feels about it. The reason you are worried about her asking about it is that you are doing it to manipulate her. Like you say you have a hidden agenda. Either that or you are doing it to protect yourself. Either way you are too focused on her and her power over you. Make the agenda YOU. You can still cuddle or compliment her IF you are doing it freely and without expectation of anything in return and if it doesn't make you feel worse doing it than not doing it.

i know that there's a switch,but i just don't know why it can't be touched?
Oh Puleese! It's HER switch.

Now it sounds to me like your W is getting everything she needs in this R and is kind of comfortable, she doesn't need to put out because everything is hunky-dory just the way it is. Without necessarily knowing this is what she is doing she has learned to manipulate her way into a position of power within the M. The disinclination she feels about having sex is an instinct that by doing so she will be giving away some of her power. The economics of the situation you have helped to create is that sex has a scarcity value and you are willing to pay top dollar for it. Please note she is not mentally rubbing her hands and going heh heh heh - she is just doing it cuz it works in pretty much an unconscious fashion. She is fine where she is and has no reason to change.

Withdrawing a little will make her feel less comfortable. If she asks you about it maybe you just need to shrug and change the subject. Act like you are unaware that anything is different. It almost sounds like you are a suspect awaiting interrogation, Cozy, don't put yourself in that position.

Do what feels right to YOU and don't subject yourself to any questioning about it.


if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs
Erica Jong
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ok.

so in other words, be myself without expectations, do things that make me happy, do things for her that make her happy, compliment, snuggle, call her honey and dear,open doors for her, hold conversations with her, tell her i love her, and then go and do things by myself, for myself and not be as close to her--let her see that i can be or am independent.

also, be a "friend" without expecting any sex: "hey, you look great today!" "do you know how much i love you?" and then go and do something for me, or even do something with her, but not expect anything when we go to bed showing her that i can do without sex if need be. that will maybe "turn her on" because she now feels unbalanced, because i seem independent and now she feels a loss of control not knowing why i am doing things without her.

i have done all of that. maybe it didn't work because i went back to being my old self again once i got what i wanted.


but isn't this also showing her that she still has the power? for example: in order to get her power back, she, being turned-on, wants me. i capitulate. we have a nice romp. now she's satisfied and so am i. i continue being nice and friendly, and a bit distant, but now a week or two has past, and my distance from her and my compliments don't affect her, because she has slipped into pms mode, making my independence a relief for her. she won't come to me for sex, because she's irritable, and then she gets her period and then she comes to me because she now feels all romantic and caring because of her hormones, and my "independence" now affects her, so she comes to me for sex, we do it and then she goes off into the month without caring or feeling any insecurity because she's still satisfied from the week before, and now pms sets in making my independence a blessing to her---aka sex once a month according to her terms.

that's the way i see it. she gets the best of both worlds: my love and compliments, and sex once a month when she wants it.


i know it's a power-play--my friends and cousins have already established that fact. the problem is trying get some of the power back and i know and understand that showing her that i am more important than her, that i come fist and am going to do what i basically want--as long as it's within reason--then i can take some of that power back because you're saying that she will then come to me for intimacy, because i am not hanging all over her like a dog in heat!! nor am i pushing the issue and showing her how angry i am when she says no.

looking back at past journals, some entries showed that i did try to be distant, but i can't remember if i was complimentary and loving, and she did come to me for sex telling me "see what happens when you don't talk about it, or bring it up?"

but the problem is that that will only happen once a month, and then it seems that the power is back in her hands.

isn't the power also in her hands when she comes to me and asks for sex, knowing full well that i will give in?

when she is satisfied, that's it. the rest of the month is over. staying away from her a bit is basically a relief for her; now she doesn't have to worry about me wanting anything because "hey, look at me! he's going through the days talking to me, being kind and loving, and he's not pushing for sex. i can honey him up and down knowing that when we go to bed, i am just going to bed."

once again, it's the best of both worlds.

if i am wrong, then tell me, because i have been showing some independence, not being complimentary, not calling her on the cell while driving to work, not even brushing up against her as we pass each other in the house, just talking to her as if she is a friend, a roommate, a person just there without a goodnight, without any comments about having sex or any inklings about having sex.

i haven't even allowed her to hold my hand in the movie theater sat. night, moved away from her when she went to put her hand on my back at the snack stand, didn't try to hold hands with her while in the store, because we usually hold hands, or she'll hold my arm.

that's a way of being distant, no? she said that she wants me to be like other husbands, and i am assuming that she means to be less affectionate.

that's what i am trying to do , and i don't like it. but i don't see how being affectionate and still being happy without the sex can happen.

you're saying that i have to always be a bit distant, independent especially after i get what i want.

maybe i still am misunderstanding you.

Last edited by cozyp828; 01/15/08 06:03 PM.
cozyp828 #1327572 01/15/08 06:27 PM
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I love newbies. They argue so vehemently.

Quote:
she said that she wants me to be like other husbands, and i am assuming that she means to be less affectionate.

that's what i am trying to do , and i don't like it. but i don't see how being affectionate and still being happy without the sex can happen.

you're saying that i have to always be a bit distant, independent especially after i get what i want.


It isn't about getting what you want. It's about being Who You Are, regardless of how she is or isn't. There is a German saying, which goes something along the lines of:

"Once you've ruined your reputation, you are free to be who you are."

SHE HAS power, because you continue to GIVE it to her; yet you get mad/resentful toward her because she has power. Well, that's kind of crappy of you, wouldn't you say?

Who IS Cozy? If you had a day to fill... there was no 'job work' to do, no chores at home to do, all your friends and family were off busy doing something else... what would you do to fill your day... that you'd enjoy?

It sounds like a really silly question, but if you give it a good half-hour to contemplate... it is a very difficult thing to answer. And it SHOULD be. Most people never give thought to it, let alone live it.

When you continue to depend upon others to 'fill your needs,' they will always have control over YOUR relative happiness. When you accept 'crap' treatment from others, you will continue to get it. If you have not defined for yourself what constitutes 'crap' behavior in your life, you are going to feel like one very confused and frustrated man.

You are blowing through the books we recommend to you, and ignoring the exercises because you are in such a hurry to FIX it so you can get what you want.

It doesn't work that way. No more than it works for my son, who says he wants to be a great hockey player and wants to be great... NOW. Being 'GREAT' (not even to mention moderately good) takes a lot of hard work, practice, determination and stick-to-itness.

What you resist, persists. And you are doing a ton of resisting because the ONLY thing you care about right now... is what you want. In essence, you are throwing a temper-tantrum. Which is okay... we all do it. But it isn't going to get you where you want to be.

Right now, you are sitting, all nice and comfy cozy, in the Center of the Universe Chair. A place where everything is 'all about me.' Yes you are, and believe me, we've all taken our turns sitting there.

So. Do you want to be 'right' about the problem you are describing in your marriage... or do you want to 'solve' the problem?

Cuz I can tell you, from collective experience, your problem has nothing to do with lack of sex.

Corri #1327585 01/15/08 06:42 PM
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Cozy, read this story and tell us what you think of it: The Magical Kitchen

To me, this story represents the first half the battle.


Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Burgbud #1327594 01/15/08 06:53 PM
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Wait a sec. I thought this was a story all about pizza (mmmm, pizza) and then, in the middle, it shifted to something about love. Now don't get me wrong...I LOVES me some pizza. But that's not what the story is about. I'd give it an "F" because it shifts from food to something else about half way through. I wanted to hear more about the magic kitchen. Does it have a magic beer tap, too?

That would be unfricken-believably AWESOME!

Hairdog...channeling his inner 8th grader.

Burgbud #1327601 01/15/08 07:03 PM
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Oh, and by the way, the story fails the analogy to physical intimacy on many levels.

Frankly, cozy, there are days when I am strong, and cool, and confident and happy. And then there are days when I am cynical, and depressed, and needy, and bitcchy [sic], and nihilist. Kind of like you are right now. On days like today, I feel ready to throw the proverbial towel in. Instead, I just keep coming back to my little box, way in the back of the closet, that, in the darkness of the closet, I open. There it is...the faintest of faint lights. A glimmer of hope? Maybe. But sometimes, again, on days like today, the cynic in me stares hard at the glimmer and thinks, "nope...it's just the ambient light reflecting off my own eyes, and all that is in the box is a mirror."

Hairdog

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