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nwlywed,

depending on what you are trying to do, i would rethink this letter. if you want her to leave immediately, this is a great letter to make her do that. i would leave so fast your eyebrows would be on fire. 'expect' is a harsh word in this case and sounds like 'i demand that you....'. (i demand that you have sex with me 2-3 times a week and i demand that you give me oral sex 1-2 a month....) 'i would like' is better. but anyway, the list is overwhelming. she can't change all of that at one time. how about asking for one or two things like 'i would like it if you weren't condescending or sarcastic with me,' and take it from there?

what you gave was a huge recipe of how you expect to be treated. nobody can deal with that many ingredients. and do you really want sex to be like that? it sounds like you are saying ' if you don't do every single thing on this list, i am gone!' no one can do that whole list. if she gave you a list like that, you couldn't do it either. but if she said, ' honey, could you hold me for a few minutes when i come home?' well, yeah you can do that!

i counted 32 expectations, not including which ones had multiple parts. that is overwhelming. and you write it like she is going to get your list and say, 'oh, great. a list. let's see, today it's the 15th so i have to have oral sex with H.' and you want to be able to grope her at any time and you want her to grope you even when she doesn't want you?

bottom line: the list is overwhelming. you couldn't do all those things yourself. if you want all those things then tell her you are going to make some changes in yourself and here they are: i will not reply to you in a sarcastic tone bc i know that hurts, i will be kind to you and work with you toward a goal we can reach together, i will not lose my temper with you and say mean things, etc. and from your change, when you are making them happen, ask her to treat you with the same respect you are now giving her. but don't try to force her into doing anything. no one likes to be forced, not even you.

that is, if you want her to stay. if you want her to leave, send the letter just as you wrote it. that is the absolute best way to force her out.

I know you are hurting but this is a big letter basically telling her over and over again what a failure she is. Don't do it this way. She will react defensively and withdraw further. If she gave you a list like this how would you react? You may think you would react by saying "Ok, now finally there is something to work on." and roll up your sleeves and get to work. I doubt that is what would really happen though.

Don't do it - BIG MISTAKE, for the reasons already stated. Keep it SIMPLE.

Also, you start out saying "this isn't about who's right and wrong," and then you list all kinds of things where you feel she's wrong.

Choc.

Nwylywed,

Expectations are your problem. Even if you don't give her the list the list is still in your head and everytime she's not doing them you feel resentful. You are so focused on her you are not looking at yourself at all.

You are right you shouldn't need to mind-read. The Christmas incidents were both cases of her expecting you to read her mind. No-one can be expected to do that. However many people believe *I* means *we* when they are married so bear that in mind. If she says *I* would like to go see my dad - please ask her if she really means *I*. The movie thing was a little different, she did say she didn't mind if you went. She was dishonest about that and you shouldn't be expected to guess what she *really* means. I have spent too many years doing that myself with my PA H.

I am concerned about her drinking. You mention it a couple of times, both in the long list and something about a drunken rant. How much does she drink? How much do you drink? This could be a massive part of the problem that you are overlooking. Just because alcohol is legal doesn't mean people don't get addicted to it and doesn't mean it won't mess with people's minds - it does.

Fran

I apprectae the input. After re-reading it, it is a bit harsh and overwhelming. After reading the NMMNG book though, Im trying to find a way to get my needs and expectations across.
If I was given this list I would be pretty defensive too. So how do you get the point across that your needs are vaild and important? I appreciate it when people are direct with me and maybe thats my communication style. I just assume that's hers too.
As for the drinking, it has become a problem I would say. Were both binge drinkers, and drinking has been a big part of our relationship. I have cut back A LOT in an effort to be a better example and because I felt it was causing problems in our relationship. Originallly she and I would go out and play darts or go to the local bar or just hang around the house on the weekends and drink excessively. Excessively as in, We would drink 12-15 beers on a Saturday night EACH. We used to enjoy it and the evenings were always fun and playful and sexual. It slowly became our 'thing'. Over time the fun, playful, flirty times began to turn sour. I feel that we started using drinking as a crutch to real intimacy. She started drinking rum or tequila instead of beer and we ended up in a nasty fight evey time. Ive since slowed way down and dont even want the risk of a fight by drinking with her. I would say I have maybe 8-10 beers about once a month now. She drinks rum every friday after work and we usually end up in a fight over something petty.
I know I have created part of this situation for encouraging it and not seeing it as a problem earlier.
I definately think that the hard alcohol affects her differently. When she would drink beer she was affectionate, sweet, giving, romantic. When she drinks hard liquor shes nasty, mean, sarcastic and picks fights. The most difficult thing is that when shes like that, she feels justified in feeling that way and doesnt see how mean she is being. If i say 'baby, I think liquor makes you irrational and makes you see attacks that arent there' She just blows up and throws it back at me. I think the only solution is to stop until our relationship is back on track.

I also wanted to add. After the conversation she and I had last weekend. We got into the usual, you said this, no I didnt, I said this, No I heard what you said and you said ___. Do you hear the snide way you talk to me? Do you hear the ugly way you talk to ME?? I said look, this is a recurring problem for us. I say something, you hear somehting different, you say something I hear something different. It happens so quickly neither of us is really sure what was said. I suggest we get a digital recorder and start to record these conversations so we will know exactly what was said and we can stop arguing about who said what.
So I picked one up and brought it home on Monday. I dont think she even realizes the ugly and confrontational she uses with me. Im hoping this will help us understantd how we talk to each other.

The drinking is a problem. That is the problem I have been experiencing with my H these several years. Someone who is drinking too much will behave exactly as you describe

When she drinks hard liquor shes nasty, mean, sarcastic and picks fights. The most difficult thing is that when she's like that, she feels justified in feeling that way and doesnt see how mean she is being. If i say 'baby, I think liquor makes you irrational and makes you see attacks that arent there' She just blows up and throws it back at me.

The alcohol is a barrier to intimacy, someone who has been drinking is emotionally closed. The are also selfish, can't see anything from another's point of view, self-pitying etc.

Soberrecovery.com is a good place to start if you want to find out more about this. Do not kid yourself (as I did) that you can even begin to fix any of the other R problems until this is fixed.

I am still in the "get out now" camp for your sitch. Certainly you should think about drawing some very simple lines in the sand which if crossed will result in you leaving. For example - quit drinking and go to counselling. If you see no movement on her part then follow-through and leave. I have been struggling SO hard with this for a long time and it really wasn't until I clearly said (and was clearly ready in my own mind) that I would leave that my H actually recognised that his drinking had ANYTHING to do with our problems - no matter what I had said prior to that.

You CANNOT repeat CANNOT have any kind of sensible, empathetic, reasonable conversation with someone who is an excessive drinker. If you don't believe me ask Lil.

Fran

nwed: You aren't getting what you need to get from NMMNG. Have you really read it? Have you done the exercises? It's not about changing her...it's about changing you and your world view.

You wrote a great email...very cathartic, I'm sure. Now delete it. Your expectations are unrealistic -- with HER, and with your relationship.

What if she read that list of faults (because that is so very clearly what it is) and said, "nope. I'm not going to change. Deal with it"? Would you accept her and continue loving her? Or would you decide to hit the road? If you'd accept her and love her, I might question your sanity/emotional health, but I'd still give your M a slim chance of recovery/success. If you'd hit the road, then why are you making her reaction to the email the determinative factor about whether you stay or go? That's passive aggressive at its core.

NMMNG is not about handing your love a laundry list of needs. It's about taking control of your SELF and not depending on others to "complete you."

Read the book again. Do the exercises. And for god sakes...why are you drinking? I have cut back A LOT in an effort to be a better example and because I felt it was causing problems in our relationship. I call BS on this. You cut back "a lot" to be a better example? What kind of self-serving, patronizing half-assed crap is that? If you want to drink, drink. If you want to stop, stop. Don't do it to set an example. From what you report, it sounds like both of you have addictions to alcohol. Get yourself straightened out, but do it for YOU.

As with haphazard, I'm still in the "BAIL OUT" camp. You need to get healthy and it's going to be a lot harder (but not impossible) to do it while you're married to her.

I know of what I speak. I battle almost daily with behavior/feelings/situations that are uncannily similar to those which you have described. Things seem better right now, but (please read this!) the improvement, in large part, is due to changes within me. My attitude. My LACK of expectations. My level of self-confidence. My patience. My self-talk. My discipline. She can still rag about what I didn't do, what I ought to do, how I should behave, etc., but instead of me saying to myself, "I better do what she says because, if mama ain't happy, then nobody's happy. Plus, if I piss her off, I've just given her another reason to not have sex with me," I say, "is her request reasonable? Will it benefit me? The family? The house? Our marriage? Do I feel like fulfilling her request? And, if so, when?" I have found that the eggshells all over the floor make little difference in the grand scheme, so I put on my boots and stomp whichever direction feels right to me. This is totally opposite of my usual M.O. How has it affected the relationship? I'm not really sure. Some positive things have happened. Some net-zero things have happened. It has, however, had a positive effect on me. And that's a good thing.

Hairdog

Maybe I didnt get the gist of the book. I did read it last week and i did the exercises. What I would really like is to find a NMMNG group in my area. I posted on their message board but havent received a response for my area.
"NMMNG is not about handing your love a laundry list of needs. It's about taking control of your SELF and not depending on others to "complete you." From what i took from the book its about getting the love you want, accepting that the people who love you WANT to fulfill your needs. Maybe shes just unclear on what my needs are?
Ok, thinking about that.. she must know what my needs are. She is just unwilling/unable to fulfill them until I complete some impossible task. So we just bang our heads together.
I have recommitted myself to being more positive for me. Ive started working out again. Ive changed the internal dialoge of al the negative things i say to myself. Im trying to change me and be more positive and do what *I* think is right, if it causes conflict on our relationship im not afraid to upset the queen anymore. Im not afraid to stomp on the eggshells.
Its true I cant change her, I cant force her to see, all I can do is change me and get back to the confident, assertive, fun guy i used to be.
I figure its a start in the right direction...

Sounds to me like you have your answer on how to shorten that list there, Newlywed.

That's some great advice, there. I suggest you follow it, bravely. YOU CAN DO IT.

Choc.