Welll I do appreciate all the advice. She had a very different childhood than I did. Her mother was manipulative and abusive towards her. She doesnt really talk about it much, but I suspect thats a lot of the problem. I thought that she was past all of it because we had such a great relationship in the beginning. I figured she had come to terms with watever it was. We talked a little last night about it. AS we were watching Tv she asked me if we were going to talk again tonight (in a kind of condescending tone) I said I have some things on my mind yes, and I would like to talk to you about them, but if youre not up for it we dont have to. She said no lets get it over with, so I said ok, we'll talk for 15 minutes, ill say my piece and then ill be done. So I told her to try and see my perspective. Here I am married to this beautiful woman, the girl ive been waiting my whole life for, the one that I love above all others before, the one with such smooth skin, and pretty eyes, and nice legs and who's smart and fun and just all around beautiful, my dream girl, my happily ever after. I want to share the experience of a sexual relationship with my wife and enjoy being close to you in that way, but I get turned down. I also said that Im not going to beg, im not going to be made to feel like youre doing it out of obligation. I was really hurt on my b-day when I tried to kiss you and you kept turning your head and werent into it. Ive said beforer how much that hurts me and I told her that it hurts me when you tell me that all i want from you is sex or all i want is to just stick it in. Thats not true and it hurts me that you keep saying that when ive said many times that I dont like it. I told her that I dont believe youre any more ok with having sex once or twice a month than I am. That you once told me youre a very sexual person and I am only trying to figure out what the problem is so that we can get this back on track. Of course she got really quiet and irritated and said that if I would quit pressuring her that maybe shed be more open to it. Or that I read all these books but we never talk about it, that shes just supposed to read them too. I said yes, its difficult for me to talk to you about it because we dont end up any better off, nothing gets resolved and nothing ever changes. When ive tried to talk about it you shut down or get mad or we end up in the you used to do this, you used to do that circle or the if you would just (be romantic, rub my back, buy me a thoughtful gift, etc.) I would be more sexual with you circle. She got really annoyed and said If I hear one more time how bad I am or how I used to do this or that im going to go f-ing nuts. I said I didnt say anything about how you used to be, or how bad you are and I rehashed the gist of the conversation. I said look, this is our problem and we need to come up with some kind of answer. It doesnt matter who we used to be or how things used to be anymore, this is where we are today. It doesnt matter whos fault it is or who's right or wrong. This is a problem in our relationship and we need to figure out a way to fix it. Its been this way for months now and we need to work together to get past it. She seemed to calm down a bit and my 15 minutes were up so we stopped talking about it.
It doesnt matter who we used to be or how things used to be anymore, this is where we are today. It doesnt matter whos fault it is or who's right or wrong. This is a problem in our relationship and we need to figure out a way to fix it.
Bravo!
Don't expect her to change as a result of this conversation, but congratulations to you for saying it. Keep on saying it, and saying it, and saying it, and maybe one day...who knows?
I "read all these books and we never talk about it" too. Trust me - won't get you anywhere except satisfied that you aren't crazy to expect sex to be some part of your M. It also provides a bunch of new terminology to roll about in your own head, to allow over analysis, excuse making, new strategies and guess what? You still might not be having any sex. I encourage you to set a time limit for all this "trying" and make sure there is birth control involved if you do have sex. Marriages that break up before children come allow for a much cleaner break. If you do not make major progress that STICKS I would kiss her fondly and leave. One year? Two? Six months? Set a limit.
Also, quit apologizing and softening the edges of what you say. Don't get all hurt about her saying that "all you want is sex". The truth is, "When you aren't having any dang right it is all you want." Be a guy. Tell her, "Know what honey, let's have sex and figure out later what else we want from each other because you look hot and I want you. After we "do it", I will take out the garbage, we'll plan our retirement etc... but not until. You might think it is crass and tacky and she might too. She won't be any more angry than she already is and at least you will be telling the truth. Read Radical Honesty.
Don't get all hurt about her saying that "all you want is sex". The truth is, "When you aren't having any dang right it is all you want." Be a guy. Tell her, "Know what honey, let's have sex and figure out later what else we want from each other because you look hot and I want you. After we "do it", I will take out the garbage, we'll plan our retirement etc... but not until. You might think it is crass and tacky and she might too. She won't be any more angry than she already is and at least you will be telling the truth. Read Radical Honesty.
Karen, why didn't you tell me that back in 1981? I could have used that advice back then.
Ive read a bunch of books over the apst few months. Ive even read one called Stop Walking on Eggshells for people that have a relationship with Borderline Personality Disorder. Ive considered that maybe she has it and just doenst know it, she can be so irrational and flips out at the drop of a hat over thinsg that most people wouldnt think twice about. I.e. I threw away a stale tortilla, she flipped out. I threw away a bag of old popcorn that had been on the counter for days, she flipped out. I said she was overthinking some pens we were looking for for the wedding, she flipped out. Ive read No More Mr Nice Guy, Mars and Venus in the Bedroom, another one called Between the Sheets (i think that was the title). The bottom line is, sex is important to me. I want it to be important to her and fun and playful and erotic and sensual and even raunchy on occasion. I didnt think it was normal to have sex 1-2 times a month all through the engagement. I dont think its normal for newlyweds to go 2-3 weeks without it. Granted the wedding planning was stressful and she did it all on her own. I didnt help much at all and maybe she took that as me not wanting to marry her. Well I got emotionally distant when we stopped having sex 2-3 times a week and got disinterested in the wedding process. None of her friends helped or her bridesmaids, so maybe shes resentful from all that. Ive apologized 1000 times for it and tried to move on, but maybe she just hasnt let go of it yet. I dunno...
OK - so........sounds like you are still walking on eggshells. Why? If she gets mad and walks out because you assert a legitimate need/want it is her problem not yours. In my R I get the admission that the need is real and then I get taken to dinner. The actual assertion is never addressed. I have been stupid and let it continue because confronting is hard for me. It has been the death of my R. No, I don't think that level of sex in a new and well functioning early R. It really doesn't matter what is "normal" it only matters that what is going on isn't working for 1/2 of the dyad. When she "flips out" walk away.
Heres an update- Shes always saying how im not romantic anymore (even though I try but she wont go along with it - I.e. dinners, excursions, etc. Shes always too tired or doesnt feel like it or says just go alone) So for Christmas this year I booked us a trip to a romantic little B&B in San Antonio for New Years weekend. I even sprung for the anniverssary cottage. http://www.columnssanantonio.com/cottage/ I came home Friday from work and shes was crying and talking on the phone with her friend and I overheard her say that she didnt even want to go on this trip because shed just feel pressured for sex and feel obligated and all that. I was more than hurt that I went to all this trouble and tried to be romantic and she didnt even see it as that. We had a little spat on Friday night because she was overcritical of everything I said or did and I just got tired of hearing it. I didnt answer her question right, I didnt say this right, why didnt I do that - blah blah. So we got up on Saturday and I started packing and so did she. We left and barely spoke the whole way there. Granted she wasnt feeling well, shes been really conjested and has had headaches for about a week straight. So we get there and shes so negative and crabby and short. We get to the room and shes negative about that and crticizing everything. We end up fighting that evening because I started getting snappy back, and she plays the sick card. Says I should be more understanding because shes sick. I say I am really sorry that you are sick and dont feel well. Im trying to find a drugstore as best as I can but you dont have to be so shitty to me. So she snaps back with 'I cant wait till youre sick so I can be ugly to you' I said im not trying to be ugly, but youve been short with me all day and im trying to help but snapping at me and criticizing me isnt helping anyhting. She just got more mad and I said look, we fought on our wedding night, we fought on our honeymoon, we fight on every trip we go on, lets just forget it and go home. She told me to go away that she didnt want to be around someone so negative and she just wanted to go back to the hotel. So I walked away - 8 blocks away. She called me on the cellphone but I didnt hear it, so naturally when she finally found me she was ugly that I didnt answer the phone and she thought I was ignoring her. Anyways, long story short, we got along better the rest of the weekend. She showered and dressed in the bathroom with the door closed all weeeknd, shes been doing that for months. I didnt even try to initiate sex. We watched the firewokrs from the balcony of the B&B. Went to the riverwalk a few times and got along slightly better but there was always this underlying tension. On tyhe way home I tried to talk to her about it but of course she got defensive and ugly and wouldnt talk. So I said that why is it that every time I try and talk about us you get mad, shut down, or get ugly? Im just trying to talk and figure out why things are this way and come to some solution. She just said that she doest feel safe talking to me because everything she says I get mad about or I tell her shes stupid. I dont tell her shes stupid though. I just dont understand how she can think the way she does. If I come back with 'how could you think that?' then she takes it as me calling her stupid. I told her that I feel like im trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. That no matter what I try she still isnt going to believe that I want to be with her that I love her and everything. She said I need to quit thinking of myself so much and my needs and wants and think about hers. Which honestly, boggels my freaking mind! Its ALL about her. What she needs to get turned on, she wants a foot rub, she needs to be taken out to dinner, she needs to be romanced , she needs to feel secure, she needs this or that or why dont I do this anmore or that anymore or if I just said ___. This has gotten way too long and probably doesnt make much sense. To answer the question though, im staying because - 1. Its hard for me to meet quality women that I want to have a relationship with. 2. Ive already invested so much. 3. I miss the old days and I have the hope that they will come back. 4. We started out so great and were so into each other that I hate to admit it wont come back. 5. Maybe im being too oversensative and all marriages go through this at one point. 6. Maybe shes right in some ways that I havent given her what she needs to feel secure and attached in the relationship. But its hard when I feel like ive had to emotionally distance myself because of the insensative things shes said to me. 7. I feel a sense of responsibility because were married to try and make this work. 8. This is my second marriage and I dont want to be twice divorced. 9. Maybe I have unrealistic expectations of the marriage. 10. Maybe she is showing me love in the only way she knows how and Im showing her in the only way I know how and its just a mismatch that we can overcome.
I only have a moment, sorry. I understand (some) of your reasons for staying. But if your reporting is accurate, you have a lot more problems than sex. This matter of "You didn't say it right" or "If you only did this or that" is a HUGE problem that has to be addressed NOW. "If only you did every little thing the way I want, then I could feel secure/love you fully/have sex/show affection" is GARBAGE and not workable and also not true. Whatever you do, it will never be "right" or enough. And even if you did and it was, you would be no better than a slave. My best friend has been married to a guy who pulls this hypercritical perfectionist crap for 18 years. 18 miserable years. It will NOT go away on its own, more than likely. If you are determined to stay -- I would go so far as to say "as a condition for staying", but that's me -- get both of you to a *good* marriage counselor *immediately*.
Last edited by Kettricken; 01/02/0806:18 PM.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
What steps have you taken to get to a marriage counselor. I think even going alone - at first, hopefully she'll follow - would be really helpful. You need some SUPPORT.
I think you might try "going dark." Get the hell away from her for a bit and do some things that make you happy. I don't think she's intentionally pulling your strings, but she's got her own stuff to wallow in, and it's just pulling you down. You've tried what you know to do, so just pull back for a while. See if your absence brings about a different response from her.
