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This post is regarding the conversation described on 8 December. I've been thinking about this for a few days now, mulling it over a bit.

Bear did give this explanation

The initial assumption people make of these sort of events it...Backslide! This wasn't quite a Bitch-Mode vent, but the purpose still may be the same.

I don't like to make a judgment of Backsliding for these sort of things. They happen and it's done, but also, if done at the right moment and with self-control (or if you gain self-controlled during) these vents can be beneficial.

Now I do not recommend planning them--usually. The exception...what Jeanette is doing right now. But they are at adifferent stage and thus the circumstances are different. Jeanette needs to discuss subjects that may upset her MLCer. But it's gotta be done.

Sometimes coming to this forum and venting isn't enough, venting to your Mom, neighbour, cat...doesn't always help.
In the beginning I did the Fake it 'Til you make it act. It was important, it helped. But Sweetheart knew it wasn't real. It bothered him. He didn't want to see me miserable, but I'd gone from normal perky to fake perky. At times he also felt like if I meant so much to him I would seem more hurt.

I learned to be Real--the very day after he told me he didn't like my fake perkiness.

Later, when I was happy and didn't need to fake it, but also firm on boundaries, Sweetheart sometimes told me I seemed emotionless/cold. Usually he said this after a burst of emotion that surprised him, but sometimes before. And any emotion--Bitch-Mode or Sad was important to him--anything not happy, but rather something showing I was bothered by the situation. He visited one day and his friend called on the cell, I thought it was the OW and yelled HI LOUD to her. He got mad, hung up--he'd thought it was his Mom! Later, his friend told him--it was about time I yelled at him.
I did not feel cold. But Sweetheart was one of those who needed constant reassurance--my counselor had to remind me of this. Part of reassurance was showing through my emotions that I was not hapy with the situation--showing either through being sad or even angry--something!

Sad isn't a backslide, it's an emotion. Needy, desperate, begging is backslide. Anger isn't a backslide either; it's an emotion. It is waht you do with Sadness or Anger that can lead to a Backslide.

Sometimes our emotions 'push' our spouse away. But then aren't they choosing to Re-Act in that manner? But still, we could have had a different behaviour with a different reaction.
When going of into an unplanned (or planned for that matter) Bitch-Mode Vent learn to pull also. Pulling is the reassurance phase that follows venting.
I was hestitant to post this link, but as I reviewed what I want ot say here and what I wrote back when, I found myself wanting to repeat myself.
The Space Beneath the Tightrope

I don't think what Bear did was a Backslide--because it sounded like a soft-toned conversation rather than Bitch-Mode. I have found that these can be helpful. And yet I want it stressed that I am not recommending these be planned...but if they happen...
And there were planned occasions when I felt Sweetheart was cake-eating and things needed to change. I am a strong believer in knowing the rules/boundaries. That means I won't change a boundary without telling Sweetheart AND giving a valid reason--valid to me if not to him. Otherwise I seem unstable if I change rules on whim--as Jeanette's MLCer said she was when she was angry with him in the summer. Since we hold our emotions in check, our outbursts may appear to be instability because they are rare and may seem sudden.

So when Sweetheart was cake-eating--we were doing activities together (sneaking around riding bikes and such) while he lived with the OW. I felt like an OW. This was not fair to me or the OW--sure she made her bed, but I didn't want Sweetheart treating ANY woman or person that way. I planned to talk to him about it during the car ride to a Mt bike ride. I was calm, but he blew up. On that occasion I remained relatively calm. There were occasions where I did not plan anything and those I think were more Bitch-Mode, it is easier to control when planned.

But the change in Sweetheart after that was amazing--after he calmed down. He was actually better during the ride and drive home, but simply had calmed down from the emotions. But that week and later he treated me differently--more respect.

Bear experienced strangely nice behaviour following the discussion. Since it can go either way depending on the person and where in the process of crisis, I would not predict niceness. But I have seen it enough to know that it is not uncommon. On another occasion, the same person may have an opposite reaction. Who knows, but even then it may still positive in the long run--forcing a person to THINK.

Early on, I was amazed out how validating Sweetheart with my own apologies MIXED WITH why I was upset could result in overnight (literally) processing or progress. I spoke with my brother for several hours one night. I had not told him what was happening until then. And my messed up kid brother who can't get his own life straight to save anything gave me direct instructions on what to do. How could he do that--I wish he would take his own advice! But the next morning I did what he said when Sweetheart called--that or Sweetheart called later the same night--either way he called again about 8 hours later. And the change was...well it was incredible.

None of what I did on the conversation was a Bitch-Mode backslide. It was a lot of listening, but more than that it was showing I'd been listening prior to that particular conversation and I was now responding--so I think I did most of the talking. Probably a lot of Push/Pull. I told him what I had done wrong, how and why I was sorry. Not sure if I reassurd yet--this was his darkest phase away from and I refrained from telling him I was Standing and he could come home, as that would have been me not listening since he was never coming home.

But those conversations and those from later months did not stop what was happening either. Bear's conversation may not have pushed her husband away as some predicted, BUT that does not mean he will come BACK (actually forward) at this point either. If in crisis, he will must go through the processes to recover and discover those fragments of Self, thus he will continue to retreat. But he has something positive to process while in the Wasteland.

The important thing is to not have expectations for some immediate turn arounds...or if you feel him returning, do not expect it to last or not.

Keep Hopes High, but separate hope from Expectation.

HUGS,
RCR

rcr

I expect nothing from h right now, nothing to my benefit that is. Its all about him and ow for now.

I am in a time right now, i am greatful for the time he is here.

Trust me there was no raised voices or anger in my voice on sat. The opportunity came up, i had to say what i said. H needs to try to understand since h has not had the balls to talk to me about us, i had to tell him were i stood. If he heard great, if not, i cannot put his ears back on, he has to. For all my h tries to control the situation like you (meaning me) can't tell me what to do with or without ow. H cannot get the nerve up to tell me he is leaving on tues. Big man right. Not

And i don't expect alot of anything. I decided against i'm sure other peoples judgement i am going to get h two gift cards and put them in his stocking. If he does not want them, trust me i can use them. I will still give him a card for xmas. That is it. My heart is just not in it.

hugs
bear

Jeanette

Ok where are you tonight? You would be proud of me. I did half of the plans for today. I went to meet my boss/friends new girlfriend the gallery owner.

What a sweet person, She had a gift for me, She insisted she had to give me something for the tickets to the play. It was a beautiful hand painted pillow with a journal. I will have to send you her web site later. She paints amazing flowers and makes her own jewlery, Saw a pair of earrings i liked, maybe after the holidays i will treat myself. She makes her own line of hand lotions and salves also. She has one, I put it on and i don't know weather its mind over matter, but it so calming.

She must have said at least twice i had a good spirit and she must have hugged me at least 4 times. She made me feel at peace. She wants me to come over sometime to the gallery for tea and to talk. I may take her up on it. I want to get my mom some of the hand salve.

I did not go to dinner due to weather, ugly and icy up here.

But i did go. Oh and H calls and says are you leaving soon, you better go its getting really bad out. I say no i will leave in about 2hrs I have work to do. Well H says text me and let me now you are home. Ok I say. Go to gallery, come home and shovel. I don't text him. I sent him a text after 4 hrs of when he expected me to text him. I said oh i forgot, got into shoveling and forget to text you. Don't know if he was pissed or not but. Don't care

well its late and the nyquil is kicking in again,

Hugs
Bear

{{bear}} YAY YOU!!

I a so glad you went....SEE? Can I say I told ya so

Her artwork sounds fabulous! I would take her up on the tea and talk. She might have the gift. The TRUE gift. I also have had complete strangers tell me I have this wonderful light shining around me, after conversing with them for only a few minutes.

Someone told me I was going to see a sign....a positive sign, it was going to be good for me whether it was with or without the xhusband. She was right. The sign said PEACE. Do what you must do to find your PEACE, so I did. Not only did I finally get some peace, BUT I got many answers that plagued me.

This takes time....but your much further ahead of the so called game than I was at the time. Just by you going out, enjoying yourself and NOT CARING what you husband thought of it is HUGE.

Good job on the no texting until LATER. LOL. Makes you wonder why they even bother huh? Well, he is not your Father nor is he your Husband right now, so he doesn't have the right to know what your doing. Your a big girl, and you have been taking care of yourself magnificently! It is he who had better watch out!

So, when are we going to call her up for tea! I would like to order some of that hand lotion too! I like "calm"!

Hugsssss

Jeanette

Jeanette

Yes, i am glad i went, now i feel like i am addicted to that hand salve. Going to start carrying it around with me. going to need one for work , one for home, one for the car etc .

I will go and see her soon for tea. Not sure about the next week or so, but you know what, if h does get on that plane next week, will go on thurs or maybe friday. I shall see. Crazy week next week. I absolutely plan to go after the new year. I will be out of that salve by then, that i am sure of.

I had a busy day, and guess what low and behold h calls me twice during the day, Neither time did I answer it, I was getting my hair cut and colored. (lord which i needed so bad) I call when i leave shop, h tells me every detail of his day and what he is doing for the rest of the day, what time he will be home, etc. Oh boy, guilty party of one your table is available. (do you see it too or is it just me?)

I had to get cards for my parents, etc. I struggled so long over getting a card for h, do i, don't i. Well i got a card, that says in the front we may not make it all the way to merry this year, but were still family. Inside says Were still holding each other up and sharing the love that always leads us back to good times.

Now I am in the state of do, or don't i give him the card. Do or don't i get him a gift. Now keep in mind that the gift would be a gift card to starbucks and barnes and Noble book store. I still want to get him a gift because its christmas, and i don't care if i do not get one back. I want to my heart wants to. Am i being stupid? And then what do i do for his birthday which is 1/6. This i will have to sit on for a while.

Am i being i don't know unrealistic about the gift cards. If he says he does not want them I will use them. I don't want to seem nieve or anything. I don't know I don't really care if he gets me even a card. I want to do this because it is christmas its better to give than receive.

Need your imput. Well here is the web site for the woman who makes the hand salves and her art work. If she does not ship. I will get some and mail it to you, the least i could do for you. http://www.dreamingdiva.com
http://www.lesliemontana.com -for her artwork

Hugs
bear

To me, the card sounds great! Hopeful but not pushy. The gifts you are thinking of are very neutral and I would give them. You have to be true to yourself, too. I bought a gift for my H - not sure when I will see him to give it, but I can't just ignore the fact that it's Christmas and it wouldn't feel right to pretend he doesn't exist for me.

seekpeaceofmind

Thanks for the encouragement. I feel ok about it. Its not giving me any anxiety at all.

phbear

Ok, so I go out this am, to do some more errands for xmas. H is still sleeping,. I head home around 1pm have one more place togo, ask h if he wants to go get lunch. I get no, i have some shopping and errands to do myself. You have got to be kidding me, I know darn well that there are no gifts for me he is shopping for.

Bet you she gets better gifts than i ever got. I basically had to show h, look this is what i would like for xmas. Never really had a mind of his own. I'm glad he would buy what i would want don't get me wrong, just once in a while I would like some surprise. Looks like I got one in June and Sept.

phbear

Oh, i think i back slid tonight. H has to work, 11p to 7a. Not scheduled staff member out sick. I say to H at dinner i'm sorry you have to work, it is going to be such a nasty night. H says its ok.

H goes to leave around 10:30 and i walk down to the garage to say good bye. Well I say good bye please be careful, and h leans in and gives me kiss on the cheek. I then said it, ok be safe i love you. AAAAARRRRRGGGG! I have been so good in not saying it to him. Part of a 180 on my part. I have not said it in probably close to two months. H said i love you to right back to me. Now don't get me wrong , there are no hopes here. Trust me. I think i said it because i am so concerned about the weather tonight. And you know as i sit here, it good every once in a while he should hear that from me. Certainly won't kill him. Anyway in his mind it does not mean a thing. Just words.

Still in countdown mode to when he is going to tell me he is going to fla. Maybe tomorrow? Maybe he is not going? I don't know. Maybe he is staying up to work? I know there are numerous holes in his schedule for xmas eve and xmas day. Now puts kink in my holiday. I was going to go to my parents house xmas eve and maybe stay till xmas day. I don't know, I know tomorrow will be the day he will tell me. I cannot believe he being such a chicken s&^t about telling me. Now i would think he would be all over that and told me long time ago, just to get away from me and to see me hurting. But joke is kinda on him right now, I really don't think its going to effect me as he thinks. I happy he will be in Fla vs up here with ow.

phbear

Looks like a day for backsliding bear! Me too...big time.

But you know what? I don't think I would consider yours too bad. Especially 'cause his reaction wasn't negative.

Sounds like it was more of a reflex given the situation as opposed to a declaration of your love to him.
A few weeks after H dropped the bomb I called him "Babe" by accident...something I've been doing for almost a decade. Some things are so ingrained, they come out of our mouth without even thinking. It shows how our feelings are a part of us...still makes me wonder how they can give it up so easily.

Hang in there...act as if he's not going to tell you.
J~