Divorcebusting.com Forums Divorcebusting.com Archives For Newcomers Archives WAW staying, I'm leaving to give her space..

Well, I am so fortunate that I have found this wonderful website before all hope was lost for me! I would like to introduce my story thus far and ask any advice going forward (I'm sure I will need help in the coming months). I have spent the last several days reading literally hundreds of threads in these forums and other websites and feel that I am now becoming more clear about what I need to do and how to go about attempting to save my marriage.

My W and I have been married 13 years and together for 16. We met when she was in college (the 1st time) and I was about to enter college after finishing my Army tour in the Middle East (August 1991). She was 20, I was 22. I can honestly say that it was like love at first site. We were definately enfatuated with each other. We really clicked. After dating for a few months, she decided to quit school in PA and move to AZ with me and start a new cirruculum. You see, I helped her discover that what she was doing at the time "Music Performance Major" was not what she wanted to do with her life, she wanted to do something with animals so initially she decided on "Marine Biology" as a major. We had a wonderful 3 years in AZ together. I completed my BS in Electronics and received a wonderful job offer in CA. We moved there and soon after was married. We were extremely happy together.

We soon discovered that the cost of living in CA was too much and that I couldn't finance her remaining college there on one salary. We then moved to NC so that she could finish her college there and because her parents lived there as well. Well, she then decided that Marine Biology wasn't the thing to do, maybe it was being a Veterinarian.. I continued to support her both financially and emotionally. I really knew that she would eventually become successful at whatever she did, she was smart and determined. Well, to become a veterinarian takes ALOT of college. She then decided to become a Zoologist instead because she didn't want to spend another 6 years in school. Eventually, she recieved her BS in Zoology and recieved a job offer in CO. I was able to transfer employment again so that we could both start living the well deserved 'Dual Income, No Kids' life. This was the summer of 1999.

We both fell in love with the state of Colorado. We almost instantly knew that this was where we wanted to spend our life together. Shortly, things started to turn sour and problems started creeping in. After living here 9 months we bought our first house. Life was truly great although money suddenly became tight. Within a couple of months things started getting pretty scary. A few months after purchasing our home, she started having issues with co-workers at her job and basically quit/got fired. Soon afterwards she became pregnant! Now, please understand the twist. She was on birth control since the day we met, we never planned on having any kids, especially at this point in our lives. Now, I saw myself with a house payment and over my head in bills with a pregnant W that was never planned! I know that she didn't plan it or try to 'trick' me, it was unplanned. Let me proceed with the story.

At this point, I started becoming depressed and a little resentful of everything. I began drinking more. We had our first son and honestly although it was unplanned, it was wonderful and created new meaning to both our lives. Then, I got my first DUI. It was bad enough. It caused problems but we got through it. I started drinking less. Money was still pretty tight, pressures of being parents was tought, but life wasn't all that bad. I honestly admit that being a father during the infant stage was very difficult for me and the bills started to stack. I started becoming very stressed and started to drink more again (but not drive).

Then, in 2003 W became pregnant again with daughter. This time it was planned. We were pretty excited! Then, suddenly I was laid off due to the economy and contracts! I was devastated!!! W was pregnant, we had lots of bills, I was unemployed in a bad economy!!! Luckily, I had some savings but had to pretty much exhaust them all while looking for new job. I started drinking more.. We were very adamant about keeping the house no matter the cost. I ended up taking a job that required extensive travel but paid well. We decided that she apply and start nursing school. This way, we would NOT have to rely on my income alone in the future, we would both eventually have solid careers.

For 18 months, I traveled, months at a time to be home a couple of weeks and then travel some more. It was VERY hard on us but it saved our house. I couldn't take the traveling anymore, it was affecting the kids and our relationship too much. It wasn't worth it. I quit that job and found a local job. She started nursing school. I took on a second night job to help facilitate that. This went on for two more years!!! I worked two jobs (one a night job and one a part time day job) and she went to nursing school fulltime, with 2 children! We hardly had any time together. To say it was rough would be a huge understatement!! I remember pacing the halls at night believing that once it was all over we could really have a LIFE together as a family. I was my motivation. All through this I was drinking to cope and was basically neglecting our relationship. Three weeks before her graduation, I got my second DUI! Totalled my car, lost my license, all that. She threatened divorce, I quit drinking reluctantly. I understood I had a problem. I was EXTREMELY REMORSEFUL and thankful that she didn't leave right then. This was May 2007.

I did manage to keep my primary job and continue to work until August when I got lucky and found a better job and at the same time received a nice severence package from my previous job. The bills all got paid up. Long overdue home improvements and repairs were made. I got a nice plea bargain thanks to a good lawyer that only required 'house arrest' so I could start a new career at the same time she was getting a great job as an RN. Things were beginning to go our way for once! I was having a few drinks on the weekends but my depression and alcohol dependence was fading and I was REALLY becoming happy again, FINALLY!!! I thought she was too. I bought her a nice bedroom set that I wanted to give her for graduation but I couldn't afford at the time. I bought a new TV and PS3 for movie watching. The only issue left at hand was dealing with the DUI sentencing and her taking a weekend night shift because of car and child care logistics. I tried to talk her out of it because I knew that we needed more time together but she said there was no choice short term. Later on when I got my license back she could change her schedule. I didn't like it but figured it was going to be ok for now.

Then, On Oct 22 she told me IWAD! I was crushed!! She never got over my DUI in May among many other things but stopped talking about it months ago. She was waiting for the opportunity to leave. She wanted out of the marriage and if I wasn't going to leave then she will! She was going to work extra shifts to pay for one of us to leave. Her timing was impeccable. I felt decieved and unappreciated although I did admit that I knew things weren't that great but I thought things were finally getting better and that we could work on living a happy life, repair the wounds of the past without all the external pressures we had before. She wanted nothing to do with it. Why would she? She has lost weight over the past year and was looking better than ever, she has a wonderful high paying career now and she didn't need me anymore! I asked her why now? I thought things were improving? She said she was 'faking it' and she knew for several months that a divorce is what she really wanted, no thoughts of trying to work anything out. Her mind was made up.

Sorry to post such a long story but I had to give some background on my situation.

Today's situation:

Managed to get her to go to 'counseling' a few times. I thought it would help but the focus was more on my past drinking, how it affected her, and why I needed to accept the divorce and move out. The counselor has been somewhat helpful in some aspects but not what I was expecting at all. I also found out that current counselor divorced an abusive alcoholic many years ago. Talk about biased! I'm looking for a new counselor that practices SBT.

My 'house arrest' starts Dec 11th. I will be moving out into an apt across the street from my job, probably first week of Dec. I thought about telling her if she wanted to leave then she should move out not me and I would stay in the house but without a car or license it wouldn't be a good choice for me. We also have a S6 and a D3. She makes more money than I do for the first time in our R as well so she can handle the mortgage payment better and frankly I do not need all that space. She also gave me the 'if you leave we may have a chance but if you force me to go it's over' speech. So I'm going for now. The hard part is that I will not be able to do much of anything over the next two months. I will be totally reliant on her for visitation. I'll miss X-mas, New Years, my S6 BDay and her BDay. She is going to NC with the kids for Xmas without me, her whole family will be there. She will truly have her space, her freedom, the kids and our house. On top of that, I get to be her babysitter while she works because that was part of my plea bargain to keep out of jail and keep my job. Ironically, I thought I would be spending that time in my home with her too. I didn't care too much because I thought at the time that at least I had her and everything else to be thankful for to get me through it.

Unfortunately the first few weeks I did everything wrong. I begged, pleaded, ILU, give me a chance, you're not trying, all that stuff. It made things much worse. I started to give her space and things started to improve a little but last week was my bday and tgiving and I was a mess, very down and needy. Things got terrible again but last 2 days I started laying off her again.

On the bright side, she hasn't ruled anything out yet. She just needs space and time to see what I do and whether she can love me again. She acknowledges that I have quit drinking and really am improving some but has NO TRUST that it's long term. She is doubting there is anything I can do but willing to wait and see for awhile. I also want to say that in the past she has had some real self esteem issues but lately her self esteem has been improving. I was extremely happy for that but it's probably one reason why she decided to become a WAW, kind of ironic.

I don't think that she is having a PA but possibly an EA that she is not telling me about with someone at her job. She has admitted that she is 'looking' (probably for just sex) but not really wanting any R with anyone right now. When I tried to nicely question whether there was someone else she started accusing me of accusing her, etc. She was very overreactive in my opinion. I didn't say 'I know you are cheating on me'. I just asked her if there was "something she wasn't telling me, is someone else involved?". The only reason I asked her this was because I was noticing that she stopped wearing her wedding ring (she does have a legitamite excuse for that at work and I believe her) and because I noticed that she was spending alot of time in front of the mirror before work, she seemed very concerned about her appearance lately. In the past she rarely wore makeup when going to school or work but now everytime she is going to leave the house it's like she is about to go on a date. Her answer was that she felt good about the weight loss and the way she looked so she wanted to 'flaunt' it for a change. She also stated that she was approached by an old schoolmate about 3 weeks before D-day and that she wanted to have a PA but didn't want to "make herself look like a slut" or give the impression that it was her fault that we had to divorce. Hell, she also said she wished that I would f*** someone so it would make it easier for both of us to move on! What would anyone think? There are other small signs but I know now that I can't do much of anything different if there is or there isn't.

Her major complaints that caused this (as I interperet them today) are:

1) My drinking of the past - inheritently, it caused alot of relationship problems.
2) DUI - having a hard time dealing with the consequences and the fact it ruined her graduation and continues to cause her problems.
3) I don't make her feel loved, don't pay attention to her, don't compliment her, don't appreciate her, didn't do what she wanted sexually, etc.

Number 1 is nearly resolved, I just have to prove that it is long term and continue the AA and therapy on my own.
Number 2 is being worked on, I have to do the 'house arrest' and wait until next summer to get my driving priveleges back.
Number 3 I need to work on but right now most of it is being received as 'hollow' to her so I cannot do much there until I give her some space, etc.

Am I doing the right thing by moving out for now to give her space? She says although I'm trying to give her space, she feels living with me is very uncomfortable and she is very tense and cannot relax with me around right now. I am getting the DB book but I don't have it yet. I started applying some of the advice I have found on DB as of yesterday. I'm agreeing with her that our current relationship/marriage is over and for now I need to give her space, I need to work on me, she needs to work on figuring out why she is so unhappy, maybe after house arrest is over we can start working on a better R but neither of us are ready yet. Told her I will stop discussing R until she is ready to discuss it. I want us to do it the right way this time. She still says that it's ok to continue counseling while I am gone. She agrees that our current counselor is a little hard on me. Ironically, she also said it would have been much easier if I just continued drinking or was an ass about everything but I haven't been so it makes her feel 'guilty'. Any initial advice for the next week?

Wow.

You are going through some tough times. My heart's with you. Sounds like you are backing off from the R, working on yourself. Sounds like you are already doing good things.

It's great that she has given you some pretty clear things to work on, and it's great that you seem to agree. This seems like a crappy time, but you are living in the light! Unlike 3 months ago, now you know how she really feels. You know you have things to work on. Make sure she knows you agree with her. Then keep working on you.

You mentioned AA, but you also mentioned having a couple drinks on the weekend. I'm not sure those are consistent. are you drinking a little or not?

By the way, being suspicious of your wife is not supportive. Does she look great? Well then good for her. She may or may not decide to stay with you. But if you give her a bad vibe when she looks good - that's not something that is going to build love in her heart for you.

Could that suspicion be coming from doubt and insecurity on your part? Maybe? Look, I can see that you'd feel that way given all that has happened. I totally get that. Will being suspicious help your W? your R? I think you know what to do - work on yourself. Don't try to hold her back! Just work on yourself. That's what she asked for.

No, my last drink was a week before she asked for divorce. I did drink on occassion from June-early Oct but NOTHING like before the DUI. (BTW, I didn't wreck the car because I was intoxicated, I was intoxicated when I wrecked the car..there's a difference, but still doesn't make it right). AA is mainly because I need some support to keep myself on track after hearing what she wants to do. Honestly, the drinking due to stress and depression went away in early August. I just didn't feel the need to do that anymore. I told her that not drinking now was a 'piece of cake' mainly because I know now what's at stake, how she really felt about it, and I just don't need to do that anymore now that I have identified the issue. Alternatively, it would have been a piece of cake to just give up and go get drunk the night she dropped the bomb but I'm better than that now and she means more to me than that. I told her if she honestly thought that I chose alcohol over her or that I could never stop, look at the way I am NOW, not THEN. I really am doing that part for myself as well but she still doesn't trust me, she thinks it's temporary. I understand why she thinks that way but it's still frustrating because I know it's not. This will only be cured by time and actions, I guess.

Yes, I agree that the suspicion MAY be insecurity on my part. I still feel that there may be something going on there or maybe it's just my lack of trust in her right now. Like I said though, there is no benefit in me spending energy trying to figure out if there is or not. If there is, she tells me or she doesn't. I'm not going to bring it up again to her unless it becomes blatantly obvious that she's having one.

I am committed to working on myself and giving her some space. I am fully aware I made many mistakes and I am actively working on my own personal issues. (I guess I'll add insecurity to that )

Keep in mind, she is not innocent and has many issues she needs to work on as well. I've realized lately that it's not me who can address her problems, that will have to be left up to her and counseling to resolve. I just need to give her some space, work on myself, GAL, be supportive and positive, and not give up. It's all I can do right now I guess.

Hi jaBRWok

I've been in many of the same places as you and IMexperience the not drinking thing can only yield results with time - there's no way your W will believe anything you say on this. All you can do is hope to be given time to prove to her that you mean what you say through actions.

Thankfully, you have seen the futility of pleading, begging etc.

For me the bomb was the kick in the whatsits to sit up and ask myself where my life was heading and if staring at the bottom of a wine glass was helping me get there. Obviously it was not and that was the turning point. But your W, like mine, has probably heard empty promises before and doesn't believe them any more.

Whatever happens you now have an opportunity to get sober and stay sober for your kids, who, no matter what happens will have and will need a dad. Not drinking might seem like a piece of cake at the moment but your W needs to see that this change is here to stay. Only time is going to offer this proof. Your W will be thinking of your kids and whats best for them. This may well work in your favour as she's unlikely to want to make any sudden moves. Use this time effectively!

Now's the opportunity to be the dad they deserve and the one you want to be.

For me this whole expereince has been a salvation and has enabled me to get a proper perspective on life but I have had to spend months quietly working on myself and GettingAL. Shouting about your changes is unlikely to have any positive effect, quite possibly the opposite.

I think the best you can do is to deal with things so that the changes you have to make to deal with the house arrest impact as little as poss on W and kids and to make all attempts to put them up there as number 1 in this. At same time take opportunity to get on with DBing quiety and consistently. Your W and kids need calm.

You recognise that W has to be the one to deal with her issues. This means that up and down times are likely to come as she works these out. Your commitment to you R will be sorely tested here and you need to sort out your anchor points pretty quicky and make sure they're gonna hold fast in a storm.

On the possible EA/PA I would advise ignoring this. IMO dwelling on this possibility will not help you and challenging her about it is unlikely to result in any good. Here's an opportunity to 180 - by overtly trusting her or adopting a stance that assumes and exudes trust. I did this and it def paid off - at a point where my trust in W was pretty low I took S away for a long weekend leaving her to do whatever. But, what I was doing was entrusting her with my trust. It was a pretty powerful message I think -at the point at which she thought I was unable to trust her at all I did. Going away is prob tricky for you but are there any other moves you can make that underline your trust?

You could also do with sorting out some positive family experiences. Short, focused and positive. At present, IMO, she sees few positives. You need to provide some evidence that will challenge that view.

In my sitch, that has had the by-product of W challenging me as "being super-Dad - all of a sudden". This is likely to happen and this is a challenge, not made consiously I don't think, but as a result in W being unbelieving of the changes. This is a googly which you have to be sharp enough to spot and make sure it doesn't knock you off course. This will be the point at which you have to be big enough to step further up to the mark by maintaining changes and being consistent.

Many people on this board refer to the need for patience and consistany. These have to become your middle names! Also I have seen reference to aiming small, missing small. I have learnt to lower my expectations significantly and honestly this was a really good move.

GFI

Excellent advice.... the pa/ea (real or imagined)is a symptom of M problems...not the problem...treating the symptom doesn’t work. In my mind its always the worst case scenario....she is in love w OM...I tend to torture myself.... this is obviously anti productive....You can not help her to find her feelings.. She will resent you if you try...you MUST work on the only person you can change...you....this is a slow process....expect the roller coaster....don’t be 2 quick to move toward her emotionally if she shows signs of softening...... this is the hardest thing I have ever done....you are not alone....hang in there


ps AA has given me a support group, friends that know how to have fun without drinking/drugging, something to do on a "Friday night"....can be helpful...

Thanks for the quick and excellent responses! I'm already starting to feel like I'm finally doing the right thing for a change. I also hope that it's not too late, alot of damage done already.

I also just wanted to say that up until a couple of years ago we too were the couple that nobody thought would seperate. We seemed very much in love and everyone said "you guys are great parents and so happy and cute together... you were meant for each other.. soulmates... like newlyweds". I honestly think that the past few years has taken a toll on both of us (my excessive drinking just compounded the issues). The inability to have any fun together/spend quality time together for the past couple years has made her forget or lose hope that we can enjoy life as a couple again like we did in the past. I also think our lack of communication skills and M skills have contributed significantly and they need to be improved. I think neither of us had any real idea what the other was thinking, needing, feeling or this would never have happened.

I'm on the rollercoaster already, believe me!!

Things I'm working on short term are these:

1) Finding a better counselor for our R and M issues, communication problems, one that is SBT and anti-divorce. Do this once a week with W.

2) Create a preliminary list of goals for myself. - I have some good ideas but I asked W to help me with this so I focus on the right things in her eyes.

3) Give her space to relax and time to think ASAP and make my move to new apt as smooth as possible for her and kids. Minimize contact unless kid related, counseling related or she initiates it (see what happens over next several weeks). - I think this goes a long way in the trust dept. She still can't even trust that I'm actually going to move out, leave her alone for awhile, until she sees the signed lease!

4) Take care of the DUI/alcohol related issues on my own to lessen her burden. - she already expressed that she needs this.

5) GAL, start working out. - Last few months I lost alot of weight (mainly stress) and I look alot better but I'm getting quite thin. I need to build some muscle tissue. When we met I was very 'buff' (6-pack abs and all) from military and want her to say 'holy s***, you look good' to me after house arrest. I mentioned to her yesterday I was thinking about working out to improve physique and she definitely showed signs of interest in the prospect. It would be a big 180 for me as well.

After reading about so many bad/worse situations that others are going through, I feel that I have a decent shot if I do the DB methods, am patient (which is hard right now) and consistent. I know I cannot think much about long term right now but planned on booking a Retrouvaille with her in Feb (our W anniversary is coincidentally same week). I think we REALLY NEED something like that but I'm not going to be pushy about it. IMO it's a VERY good thing for me that she is entertaining counseling and therapy and she still says she is trying to have an open mind about the future, although at the same time she says she doesn't see much chance of her mind changing at this point. IMO if I can get her to do the right therapy while she is entertaining the idea it may open her mind a little more before it totally closes on me.

I think the biggest obstacle for me is getting her to take the 'hate/angry/negative' goggles off. She cannot see any positives in our M and R right now. She is afraid to feel/see anything good in me (past, present, future) for fear of being hurt or disappointed again. It has become extremely obvious to me and I think she sees it too but she can't help it.

Once again, thanks for all the great comments so far.

This is the hardest, most painful thing I have ever done in my life.

In summary, the past week has been an uphill battle since my loss of composure Thanksgiving PM and the EA/PA question Friday AM. W had to work nights through the holiday weekend (prob a good thing) and has pretty much avoided me when she was awake, so last 2 days I've backed off for the most part. Slight improvement over Friday but not as good as Thanksgiving AM (she went out with co-workers to dinner and bar the night before, I thought I did a good job handling it for a change and took care of the kids). Tomorrow is D3 bday, it probably will be depressing as well. D wanted a sleepover but W didn't invite anyone because of current sitch. I just feel sad for D because she can't have much of a bday.

Well, the discussions today were mostly about my pending move out of the house. Wanted to talk about financials, contact, visits, etc.. I ask for feedback about what was discussed:

1) I said that we could share the bills and keep the joint bank acct as it stands until Jan but I didn't see the hurry to split up everything since this is a 'trial seperation' and is not legal yet. She was pretty quick to jump and said ok but wanted seperate accounts for everything in Jan. I said ok if she wanted that but it wasn't necessary. She is in a hurry to refinance the house to get lower interest rate because she is worried about affording it wit her salary alone. Along the same lines I told her that we/she can afford it at the rate it is now and the longer we wait the better rate we will get (credit is in the dumps but improving). I'm kind of stalling on splitting up ALL the accounts right now but trying to give her a sense of independence financially.

2) I told her I wouldn't call her excessively and that I thought it might be a good idea that kids just come to my apt the first month or two and that I don't come to the house at all like previously planned. I just wanted to give her the break from me that she is asking for (this is going to be the hardest one for me)

3) I'm supposed to get kids THUR-SUN when she works nights. She asked something about going out with friends from work more often and a work related xmas/new year party. I told her basically that if she wanted to go out with friends to bars then it was up to her to find babysitter on her own. I did say that I might do it for the party for her, we will see. My excuse was that I needed the rest of the time to work on myself. (therapy, AA, time to think, GAL).

That's about as far as it got on that subject.

She said no xmas present for her from me but I still wanted to get her something that I wanted to get her last year. Nothing romantic or expensive. I know DB says no gifts, thinking about this one. I just told her ok for now, no gifts. That was a hard one for me too.

There were a few other mentions about my computers and how she would like to get a laptop and setup a wireless home network like we have now. (I am taking the PC, laptop, and peripherals, they're all mine). I offered her help in finding one to purchase. I was thinking (but didn't mention to her yet) that I could easily throw together and setup a desktop PC for her before I leave until she got a laptop. She would at least have internet and email but is this the right thing to do or should I let her figure it out for herself while I'm away?

I did kind of slip and told her today when she was getting ready for work that everytime I see her getting ready to leave I keep thinking things. She said "what? that I got a date with someone?" I said, "no, I just keep thinking how beautiful you are looking." She said smiling "scrubs aren't the most attractive attire." I said "they always turned me on, you know, the nurse fantasy and all." Still smiling she said "that's probably a fantasy of every guy." I said "yeah, I just thought that I would be able to live the fantasy with YOU and never got the chance." She kind of stopped smiling at that point and retreated a little. I then said softly "you know, it really hurts me to see you so unhappy and sad in our M" Then she just slowly walked away and scurried off to work without even eating the dinner I made her. (insert foot in mouth here)

There are a few other things I was wondering whether I should discuss before I move out:

1) Should I bring up the subject of dating during sep? I think she wants an opportunity to date (she's mentioned that at some point we should both start dating) but I'm totally against it! For one thing, there is no way I can date for at least two months. Second, I think it will just complicate things for obvious reasons, but I don't want to sound controlling.

2) Do we set any goals for her to work on or R or just mention goals for myself and leave it at that? I figured that this may be better left to MC or IC.

3) Should I readdress how I feel before I go one last time and how should I go about that? I just wanted to tell her one last time that I wished there was a way to make things better without having to leave. That I feel so bad for the pain that I caused her, that this is not my decision and that I am committed to our marriage vows and I'm not going to repeat the mistakes of the past....etc...

jaBRWok

You posed these ?s:

Dating during sep:- you could try out the notion of a healing separation with her with groundrules. This seems to be tried and tested avenue which must have had results for some. You've already had a discussion bout finances and so other things could be included in a general way. Look at http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/Alberti1.html

Goals for your W:- like above not sure you can set these as a prerequisite. You might be able to tell her bout the things you're going to work on and wonder if she's going to take the opportunity to do anything in particular. Actually, it might be too much of a stretch for her right now and all she'll want is calm and peace so don't be surprised if she's not looking forward to rollinig up her sleeves for 2 months of self-enlightenment. IMO she has to be left to get to that point herself. On the other hand, she'd be a rare person not to use the opportunity to take a look at things.

Readdress how I feel before I go one last time:- IMO this would be classic pursuing behaviour and might create in her mind an impression of you trying to gain the upper hand. I think you should think very very carefully about this.

Best of luck!

GFI

Make sure you have thought things through by leaving. I see it time and time again. Once you are out it is an uphill climb to get back and most don't. Don't be a lamb to slaughter.