Have to admit that I've been feeing a bit out of sorts post-conversation with H. Got caught up in the "people can't change" thing and started wondering if another bomb was going to drop,etc. Realized a few things, though, that I think will take me to my next DB step!
1. DB'ing is about saving me not saving M. I keep forgetting it and I've mentioned before that I think that's kept me from embracing it fully. I'm sorry to hear that H. feels as though people can't change -- but, I think they can, and I have (and I feel that he has too!). I've recognized a host of unhealthy behaviors in me that are keeping me from having the full, intimate, loving, happy, satisfying, strong life that I want. I'm working on those for me. I'm getting grounded for me. I'm learning how to listen for me. I'm learning how to talk without inspiring defensiveness for me. I'm learning how to soothe myself when necessary and share my pain with others when necessary for me. I'm learning how to identify goals and go after them for me. I'm learning how to work through my fear of intimacy for me. I'm learning how to trust for me. I'm learning how to forgive for me. I'm learning that keeping someone at arms length doesn't mean that they won't hurt you for me. I'm learning to heal for me.
2. H. is not a conversation guy -- never has been -- and actions to him are the only measure of success. The conversation about my changes was peppered with the fact that I had just started crying in a restaurant (action). All the good talk in the world isn't going to mean diddly in that case. I need to keep committing actions.
As an important note -- talking about changing with H. did nothing to get me toward ANY goal and actually feels like it derailed the process a bit (least it depressed me for a while!). I need to remember this the next time I'm tempted to go down that tunnel. (I do think that parts of the conversation were quite constructive so need to figure that out).
3. I need to get a life. I'm not sure what this means exactly -- gotta get some goals in place -- but I've been so focused on M. I've forgotten about me.
4. I've been spending way too much time in the past and in the future. H. brought that point home the other day -- we're doing really well on a day to day basis. I can even feel the web of creating a future life together as a result -- but my inability to revel in that is messing me up.
What went well yesterday: H. thanked me for our conversation and thanked me for navigating through his conversation style.
H. was very affectionate while we were watching tv.
H. read to me from the book that he was reading last night
What didn't go well: A couple of things -- first off, I'm still feeling overly sensitive and I'm getting definite feedback from H. that he's feeling my sensitivity. I HAVE to stop taking him so seriously and I HAVE to stop apologizing for being me!
I set him up a bit last night in a way that used to be typical. We were supposed to go orienteering on Sunday (1st time) -- I found the event and have been talking about it for more than a month. Well, turns out that H.'s bball team is having an informal practice at the same time. I told H. if he wanted to go to the practice it was ok but I think I was using that as a test to see which he would choose. I've done this before and it's not fair to either of us. I was definitely feeling peeved that it appears that he's choosing bball instead but how can I blame him? I TOLD him that it was ok with me. Not good stuff.
--Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
I want to start by saying thank you so much for checking in on me so often yesterday. The advice you gave me was invaluable. I did choose to let it go for now and I feel that was truly the right decision. Without your 2x4, last night could have been a miserable disaster. Thank you.
Now, on to your situation...
Quote: I was definitely feeling peeved that it appears that he's choosing bball instead but how can I blame him? I TOLD him that it was ok with me. Not good stuff.
I feel for ya. I do this all the time. It is something I've been working on changing. When H says he's going to do something and then says "Is that ok?" I always said that's fine even if it wasn't. Then he would get home to a very pissy, grumpy Erin. That's not fair. The last few opportunities I've had, I have said "No, that isn't ok with me." and then continue to explain why. I usually end with "That is how I feel, but the choice is yours to make." This way, if he comes home to a grumpy wife, he knows exactly why. The first time I did it, I was scared to death that he was going to be furious with me and then I thought "So what?" If I'm not happy with his decision, why should I pretend that I am. It's that thinking that made me begin to resent him in the first place. I can't change the decision he's going to make, but I can give him all the facts before he makes the decision. Sorry if that was rambling.
Quote: I need to keep committing actions.
You do, if you're doing it for yourself. If you swallow everything you feel and all your reactions, are you doing it because you want to change your behavior or because you want your H to think that your changing. Did it bother you that you cried in the restaurant? Is that a behavior that YOU want to change because it bothers YOU or because it bothers H?
Quote: talking about changing with H. did nothing to get me toward ANY goal and actually feels like it derailed the process a bit
Sounds like the same cheeseless tunnel you helped me from going down yesterday!
Quote: I need to get a life. I'm not sure what this means exactly -- gotta get some goals in place -- but I've been so focused on M. I've forgotten about me.
We've all been there, or in my case, are there. I have the same problem. The obstacles are just a little different. I know some things I'd love to do but I have no where to send my little darlings. If they were just in school it would be a lot easier! Look at your Community College. There are all kinds of fun, artsy type things I'd love to do. You need to find something non-academic related that would give you pleasure. Maybe a book club at the library?
Last question - What is orienteering?
Hope you have a good day! Erin
"A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing."
-George Bernard Shaw
That's really it...we make these changes for US. That's how I felt while my inner (and outer) transformation was beginning. That no matter what happened with my M (remember H had 1 foot out the door at the time) these were changes and insights I needed to work on for my own personal, spiritual, emotional growth.
It's extra tough on you, because it seems your H is very focussed on observable behaviours...I mean, one crying jag negates all your positive changes????
I can see, some, why you've been feeling more like you're walking on eggshells than I have. I think my H has a bit more empathy for the anxiety/sadness side of things. It's the anger, control, hiding feelings, and sarcasm that really, really bother him.
You do, if you're doing it for yourself. If you swallow everything you feel and all your reactions, are you doing it because you want to change your behavior or because you want your H to think that your changing. Did it bother you that you cried in the restaurant? Is that a behavior that YOU want to change because it bothers YOU or because it bothers H?
Erin -- Oh, it's definitely because I want to do these things for ME not him. Simply put, my little episode in the restaurant wasn't a healthy thing for anyone -- least of all me. I need to figure out a way to communicate the feelings that need to be communicate before they become intolerable. And, frankly, I need to also figure out a way to better "soothe" myself. I'm freaking out all over the place for no good reason!
Quote: Last question - What is orienteering?
Orienteering is hiking (or walking) outdoors (in a woodsy area usually) with a topographical map and compass. They set up a course of checkpoints and you're supposed to navigate your way to all of the checkpoints. In a competition, you're supposed to do it quickly but I've never done it so I'll just be happy to make it back to the parking lot in one piece!
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
SB -- Thanks for the insights! I thought it was just me that thought one crying jag should definitely be allowed now and then!
Well, after months of no real R talks with H., I've had 2 in as many days. Don't expect to read about any particularly good DB'ing 'cause THAT didn't happen -- but, I don't think any damage was done to the R and I feel as though I am getting some of the closure I need.
The talk started because I was home from work early and the phone rang and I answered it and the person hung up. There was a lot of background noise so it could very well have been a telemarketer but the caller ID showed "private" which just screamed ow to me. H asked who it was, I said they hung up and it says "private". It was clear that I wasn't completely trusting of the sitch in my voice.
H. came in and said, I hope you don't think that was ow on the phone. And I said, I'm sure there are thousands of people it could have been but it crossed my mind that it might have been her. Then I went on to say that I'm still perplexed by how it could just have been OVER for them, that I had a hard time believing that there had been no contact. H said what he said the other night (that it had been a topic of discussion for some time about ending it). I asked him if he and ow had been in contact since 11/2 and he said no. I don't call her, she doesn't call me, no email, no nothing. He said this calmly.
Then we just kind of had a stream of consciousness conversation. He said that he would not want to be married to anyone but me. I said, not to negate what you just said but if you DID think that you would be happier with ow, I wouldn't stand in your way. I want you to be happy.
We talked a little bit about how the A. screwed up his circle of friends (because she's part of it) and how he wishes that he could email her to tell her to excuse herself from the social activities (because, otherwise, he doesn't go). I told him that from what I understand, she isn't going to be invited to group functions anymore because even though his friends don't KNOW, they know something was up. One of his friends told me that more than one of the social circle was really uncomfortable being around h. and ow because it seemed like something untoward was going on.
I asked him if he and ow had a PA and he said no. I asked if they had ever been naked together he said no. I asked a few other questions to that effect!
The conversation got spotty and we moved downstairs (tonight's school -- ugh). I asked him if we could just put this behind us. He said yes and that he thought it would be harder for me than for him. We hugged and kissed a few times and then I told him that these kinds of conversations make me feel bad because they remind me of how untrusting I have been. I apologized for how mistrustful I had been of him, how it had been about me not him (I'm talking about the period in our M. way-pre-A). He apologized for putting me through all of this. (yah!).
I asked him if we could do something crazy -- like burn the shirt he was wearing the night I found out. He thought that was funny because he had consciously never worn the shirt again but hadn't thrown it out for fear that I would get mad. He thought that it would smell too badly burning (is it polyester? yikes!) so we're talking about cutting it into little pieces and scattering it someplace. Someplace gross.
Anyway -- this is what I've wanted -- an apology, a calm talk about A, him answering questions about it, etc. So, here's the deal...I got what I wanted and now I'm going to move on -- I've asked him, he's answered. I cannot ask for more than that. I will be doing both of us a disservice if I keep focusing on questions and suspicions. I need to rebuild my trust. I need to rebuild my DB efforts.
BTW -- a question for you wise ones -- during this conversation and a conversation or two in the past (since the bomb), H has said that there's a piece of him that isn't sure really wants to be married at all. That may just want to be alone. He says he thinks there's something "broken" in him in that way. Both times he's brought it up, I haven't really talked with him about it because it's a freaky scary thought to me! And, he ahsn't pushed it -- it seems like more of an aside than anything tho' if I picked up on it, he might talk more about it. I'm afraid of what I'd hear, but, I just finished telling him that I could handle anything that he could tell me....should I let him know somehow that I'm here for him if he wants to talk? I don't want him to feel like I'm ignoring what he's saying...maybe I should wait? this is a whole lotta R talk for 2 people!
BTW -- before I left, H. showed me the scene in the Deerhunter that my thread title is from..."when a man says no to champagne, he says no to life" -- coincidence?
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Quoting sage: BTW -- a question for you wise ones -- during this conversation and a conversation or two in the past (since the bomb), H has said that there's a piece of him that isn't sure really wants to be married at all. That may just want to be alone. He says he thinks there's something "broken" in him in that way. Both times he's brought it up, I haven't really talked with him about it because it's a freaky scary thought to me! And, he ahsn't pushed it -- it seems like more of an aside than anything tho' if I picked up on it, he might talk more about it. I'm afraid of what I'd hear, but, I just finished telling him that I could handle anything that he could tell me....should I let him know somehow that I'm here for him if he wants to talk? I don't want him to feel like I'm ignoring what he's saying...maybe I should wait? this is a whole lotta R talk for 2 people!
Sage
I realized that I left this sounding more dire than I think it is right now...in the throes of the bomb dropping in November, H. said this a few times and it was pretty scary. When he mentioned it today, it did seem like more of an aside, although it does tell me that there's still a lot of DB'ing to do. The last couple of days have been really tough for us -- lots of R talk, we haven't gone out much and both H and I had some busy days.
I went off to school tonight. H. called and left a loving message on my cell. Before I got it, I sent him a loving email thanking him for the conversation and his help. Then he sent back a note telling me how much my email meant to him. And, the kicker was that even though he was absolutely exhausted, he stayed up until I got home from school to say goodnight.
Wow! There's my list of good things that happened for journalling.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
I am so happy for you about the shirt thing Make it special. Make it count. Bury it, take it to the dump. Buy him a new shirt and put it in a heart box.
Let go of the A.
I've been thinking about the "not changing" thing. What if you agree with him about this, but at the same time find a way to change within the way you are. So, rather than being basically insecure, what if you basically need to feel safe being loved and that scares you. In the past, the fear led you to be insecure, but that didn't work, so now you are going to be secure.... Does that make any sense???
My husband has in the past, though not recently, talked about feeling broken. I think at some point when you feel safe, strong, and validating, this is something you should pursue, maybe in C?
You are doing great. I hope you make it to Chuck's on Saturday.
Sage, I can feel your relief like a palpable weight being lifted off of my own shoulders!!!
You FINALLY got to calmly ask, and have answered those questions that have been haunting you! Phew!!!
You know, I can speak from experience when I say that it WILL be easier for you to put this behind you now. I know it was/is for me.
And, one more chime in on the "I'm scared there's something's broken inside of me". Same words my H used with me, a couple years ago for the first time, when disussing R problems (physcial) and his Depression. Sage, this is a really common Maladaptive Belief that many people with depression share.
I've asked, but H has never been able to put it into words, or at that time, felt he couldn't tell me.
Hmmm...curious about the Deer Hunter scene....might he be checking the bb? Or is he a tad psychic? Or is this just a reference that is striking home for him right now too?
My dear DB friends, I need your guidance! An interesting twist occurred today...
I was at a school class all day and my wonderful H. brought me lunch (his idea -- TOTALLY cool!). During lunch he told me that he had heard from his old company and they want him to come in for a week or two of consulting. This is the same company where ow works and there is no question that they would see each other often.
I think I handled it ok. I felt calm so it wasn't a stretch to act that way. H said something like he wasn't sure how I would feel about it and then said "I love you so much and I won't do anything to jeopardize that". I told him that I thought he should do what he thinks is best and that I wouldn't stand in the way of him doing that.
So, I didn't overreact or freak but given the setting (school) and the fact that we've had a jillion R talks lately (OK two), I didn't really delve into anything with him. Nor did I really acknowledge what he said about loving me, etc.
What to do now (if anything?)?I know that it is very important for him to make some $, have a brief opp to work, etc. so there's no question that he is going to go ahead and do this.
My real question is how much can I hope or expect him to discuss this with me before hand? AND, can I ask for the discussion? should I?
What would I be hoping to gain from it? Well, my perfect scenario is one in which H comes to me and tells me how he plans to handle:
letting ow know that he is coming back to work for a week
informing her that they will not be resuming their F during that time
handling alone time if it happens
handling group time if it happens (and that is very likely since they share the same friends and she won't excuse herself in any likelihood)
how he will handle reassuring me during that time
how is is clear at the end of the week that there will be no more contact
Simply put -- I can't control this sitch at all and I know that. I actually feel a bit silly about putting all of the above things down because it smacks of trying to control -- they are just things that I wish H. would see as important and talk with me about.
I didn't overreact and don't feel that I will. At the same time, I don't want to ignore this necessarily and it almost seems like an opportunity to problem solve on this together. BUT, I told him last night that I realized I had been living under a cloud of mistrust for our whole M. -- self-created-- and that I hoped he would stick around to see that we wouldn't be returning to that scenario...this seems like the perfect time to put that into practice. H has TOLD me he loves me and will do nothing to jeopardize that -- ASKING for an additional conversation re. that seems mistrustful.
I do want to validate his no jeopardizing statement at some point tho....
what do you guys think? This would be far easier if he would come to me...
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Quote: This would be far easier if he would come to me...
I would be, but what's the chance of that? He brought it up once and I would say is not likely to do it again.
Can you simply tell him that you want to come up with some solutions to what is obviously going to be a difficult/awkward situation for you both! Think about what types of things that he can do to make you feel ok about working with her for a week. On his side, maybe you can help him brainstorm some responses for possible situations that may come up between him and OW. He may be feeling just as insecure about this as you are.
Or, he may truly feel that the A is totally over so it isn't a big deal because there is no feeling left. I know people want to know how my H can invite FF over, knowing how much I dislike her and I know he feels that there is nothing going on, she's just a friend so what's the big deal? In that case, I still say talk to him about some things he can do to ease your discomfort. If you don't, will you just spend the entire week making up horrible scenarios about them getting back together?
Just some thoughts. Hope it made sense.
Erin
"A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing."
-George Bernard Shaw
