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A thought for you.. probably my final thought for the day...

Having "personal issues to deal with" is NOT the same as "having a crisis", midlife or otherwise.

To me at least, a "Crisis", is "AAAAAA! I dont know what to doo!!"
Whereas having "issues to deal with", is "I know what's wrong... I know roughly where I'd like to be...it's tough, but I'm working on it".

Sounds like he's really in only "issues" mode, and doing quite well at it. (congrats to him!)

Maybe this is kind of a personal misunderstanding with him.
(Maybe you actually contributed to it....)
Maybe he thinks that he cant "come back", until he is "all better".

Maybe you have an opportunity to let him know that, even if you have said that to him in the past... you dont believe that any more.
That you like who he is RIGHT NOW.... enough to stick with him.

('course, this means that YOU have to do a little growing up and get out of your "i'm not ready to commit" mode first!)


He will never be perfect.
but, if what you've written about his self-development so far is true.... I think that he is capable of continuing to have a good relationship with you in the way that you have been having these last few months... and continually getting better as time goes on.


Yes, he has very difficult "issues" to deal with. But... IF he knows what he wants (To be with his child, and also to keep "seeing" you)...and if the issues that he is dealing with, wont forseeably change him wanting those things... It's ok for him to make some kind of middle level commitment to you both... even though he isnt "all better" yet.

I think you should let him know that, with the amount of issues he is dealing with... he may never be completely "all better"... and that's ok with you. You like him enough as he is right now, to know you want to be with him again.
Just so long as he stops dating other people. Or even "play dating".

(o course...if i'm wrong, and you ARENT ready for that commitment from yourself... then i think you should quit stressing him out for something you arent ready for anyway :P
But I think you are ready)




PS: I'm glad he takes time to listen to you. i think that's a really positive thing for you both.

No, I agree. I also agree with him, that it's incredibly hard. Because I've held his hand (figuratively) through a lot of the fight.

I think, for the first time, he is actually trying to get through them. If I didn't honestly believe that, I wouldn't be talking to him now. I was so p!ssed that he used it as an excuse when he left...I yelled at him for months. (Preggo and post partem hormones in the mix, of course.)

As I've said, there are things that he's done that have made me pause. (Even though I'm leery.) His whole change in communication style. His sudden stability. Actually going to school. He's also now saying that he chooses do things, instead of them "just happening."

So...I see a lot of potential there...and I guess I'm not 100% out of patience yet.

BTW, Dom, just wanted to say thanks for all the input...sometimes I think I let things slide too much, and that may be part of the problem...



Yes. It was a conscious decision on his part to do so. I know it terrified him at the time. He wanted to know he kept leaving a perfectly good R.



Hm. Interesting....



I don't think I've told him that...at least, not that way.



I think so, too. I've tried to tell him the PTSD and stuff along those lines don't bother me. Once he commented that he was amazed at how patient I was...after he woke me up at 2am and insisted we all three go from his apartment to mine, because it was the only way he knew to shake the paranoia...and I didn't get mad. Guess my laid-back personality is a good thing, in this context.



I wonder if I've given him an "all-or-nothing" impression, inadvertently?



It does scare me. But, lately, I had been experimenting with opening up more to him...and I did like it...

There's a lot here for me to discuss with him. No rush, though.

So, I decided there were some things I needed answers to.

Kiddo and I went to xh's house last night. I wanted to discuss a bunch of stuff with xh, so, after he asked me something (can't recall what)...I just dove right in...

Here's what I learned:

When I told xh that we had been paralleling married behavior, I got that blank, confused look again. So I just asked him, if he didn't see how we were playing married, what did he think 'married' was? His answer: "I don't know."

xh told me he thinks I'm sweet, wonderful, attractive, smart, a great mom...admittedly, all the things he is looking for in a partner. He admits he loves me. When I point-blank asked him what the problem was, he said he "didn't know", just that "something" was missing inside him. He said he didn't know what, or why, but that he's been trying to figure that out for a long time now. (Did he share the same crazy glue that 99's H is sniffing??) Just that it was something inside him. He said he knew how weird that sounded, and it was driving him crazy because he didn't know how to resolve that.

xh also claims that he doesn't feel that 'something missing' when he thinks about JD or MN, and that he really would be able make either of those potential R's work long-term. (Yeah, that doesn't make sense.)

I was quite blunt with him about JD. I told him he was, despite his protestations, dating her. When I asked him why he doesn't think she's his girlfriend, his response was "We haven't talked about it yet."

I also told him that she was using him as an exit affair (she is married), and there was virtually no chance of a potential, long-term R with her. I got more confusion and denials from him. xh insisted he had 'done his research', and that this was 'common in the latin community'. Whatever. He's still too closed on this topic, so no use in pushing it right now.

So. I switched gears. I asked him what was holding him back from me--because maybe it was something I could address. I was expecting him to say my snooping or jealousy or something like that. I was prepared to offer what I am already doing, and what else I could be doing, to work on these. Instead, I got: "I don't know." (I'm getting kind of sick of that one.)

I suggested the "missing" feeling might be part of the leaving script. (He and I have discussed the script before.) He insisted it wasn't, at first. Can't recall exactly what he said next, but I pointed out that it was part of the script, too. It looked like he might have waivered for a minute.

At that point, I was feeling drained and depressed. (Which is why you really shouldn't initiate R talks, except that I don't really care anymore if they push him away...) And it was past the kid's bedtime.

As I was trying to get the baby to sleep (he decided he wasn't 'done' playing), I was fighting back tears. So, xh comes in, and gets all distressed about it. He wants to comfort me; I thank him, tell him I am okay. He wants to hug me; I tell him thanks again, but no. He asks what is wrong.

So I tell him. I tell him I find it gross that he was sleeping with me while telling her how much he loves her, how much he wants to be with her--that he told her he "cried every day because he missed her". I could see him squirm; he mumbled something about saying that was private stuff. (Interestingly, when we dated, he would have yelled it out loud in a park to the world. Not sure what in the world the difference is.) I just asked that he give me some time to calm down, and put the baby to sleep.

I recall xh laying down next to me later that night. It was nice. Then I realized it, and switched sides of the bed to the other side of the baby. He mumbled some apology, something about he had 'just fallen asleep' and wasn't 'trying anything'.

Not sure how much later it was, but he kept asking if he could lay next to me. I finally acquiesced when he insisted he 'just wanted to talk'. So he curled up on me, laid his head on my chest. It felt really, really good... xh said some kind of apology (again), said he was feeling guilty. (Wonder if something I said knocked some of the stupid loose??) He said it felt really nice to be next to me.

Then he changed his story from earlier; said that he had felt like things were "right" with me at "some times". (So, I'm guessing, the "empty" is typical walk-away rewriting. That I can work with.) He asked if I forgave him. I said I do. (And I mean that.) He asked why. I said I loved him. (Doesn't mean I intend to back down on my boundaries.)

I'm pretty sure he wanted to ML. Just knowing him. But he didn't try.

As I was headed out this morning, I did say one last thing to xh. Probably it was a bit of a dig, but I find this frustrating. I asked xh...so...during those first few months you and I were dating, we didn't actually discuss our status...we didn't have the "are you my boyfriend?" conversation. I asked him, why not? His answer: "We didn't have to." So, then, I asked, "What's the difference with JD? If you and I didn't have to, why do you need to with her?" His response: "You have a good point."

He told me he was tired of talking about JD. I told him it wasn't about her. I don't hate her; I don't think she's a bad person. (I've honestly never even met her.) I told him this was about how he views relationships.

xh was still mostly asleep, and asked me to stop, so I went ahead and left. Haven't talked to him much this morning. I did send him a text this morning, thanking him for his honesty with me last night. At the time, I made sure to tell him that I wasn't looking for a "right" answer....just that I was trying to understand. Since, apparently, we have a major communication gap here.

So...blech...that was my evening. Can I hit him with a baseball bat now, please? I just want to knock out some of the stupid. Do you think it would work??

No. Actually, I think a good portion of that started some of the wheels in his head turning. Maybe not all of it...he still really shuts down when I mention JD (and I understand why)...but hopefully enough that he'll chew on what I said for a bit.

I still stand by my reasoning that he's just being a stupid idiot, who needs to reexamine his ill-conceived relationship ideas...but, who seems to be willing to do so. I think I am done pushing for any further commitment from him at the moment. (Even a 'don't date while you sleep with me' one...I'm just not going to fool around with him... )

I also expect him to go retreat into his cave and hide and think it through for awhile. That's fine. It doesn't bother me that much anymore; I don't take it personally.

So. As far as I'm concerned, the subject is now dropped. I'm going to go back to "unconditional friend" with boundaries in place; I don't want him to think any new/bad/different information is going to change our friendly relationship. Just that there are more romantic aspects I will decline to share with him.

Sorry to hear you had a rough night. Wonder if he's confusing real love with the excitement of the initial encounter? Or maybe the excitement of affairs since he's playing M with you? Maybe that's what he thinks is "missing"? Why do I have a feeling that sounds so much like the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" BS?

Hey... dont knock yourself out over what happened. I think that, even though it was a horribly draining, TOUGH talk that you had with him... you came away with some very large, positive things:

1. He admitted that you "had a point" about his thing with JD.

2. he still REALLY wants to "be with you", even though he wont put certain labels on it.

3. He stopped claiming he "wasnt doing anything wrong", to the cheater's last resort reply of, "that's snooping!"

Which means... he knows he's doing something wrong, and is trying to turn things around on you, to get the focus off what HE is doing.




NOOO!!! that will cement the steup that you dont want!
You have a window of opportunity here!! Dont waste it!
In my experience, people who are on the fence, have rolling "windows of opportunity" to have R talk with them.
The "acceptible(to them)" frequency varies. for some people, it may be days. others, weeks. others, months.
When it comes up.. unless your spouse is on merely "days" between talks... you should make the most of it, in my opinion.
(until he indicates that he doesnt want to talk about it any more. then definately stop)

if you talk about it a little more, and he still doesnt move... THEN i think you should be firm about the boundaries.

Here's what I think you still have left to talk about:

It doesnt matter whether or not he knows what he himself "thinks marriage is".
It's more important, if he is willing to live with what YOU "think marriage is". Or at the very least, exclusive dating.

Which, I will assume, is something along the following lines:
- having a close, intimate relationship with you; Just like you've been having all this time!
- having sex, just like you previously have been having
- NOT dating other people
- NOT telling them he loves them, or even acting like it. no "miss you so much" garbage... If he "misses someone that much", that is a sign that he needs to stop seeing them completely.
- Meeting all his friends, and having him introduce you as,
at MINIMUM, "this is my girlfriend".
This last bit is key, because it shows both you, and them, that he isnt looking elsewhere.

Morning guys.

No no, I didn't think it was a bad talk. It wasn't a fight, it wasn't nasty or name-calling. We both listened to each other. I managed to say things in the right way this time, instead of blubbering out "You're a moronic @$$!" It was just...tiring... lol

I agree. There were a lot of productive things. Wish I could take a nap...yikes...emotional exhaustion...



I agree. His actions in the middle of the night, the wanting to comfort, etc., all indicate this.



I didn't even notice that. I hate to admit it...but...if I hadn't snooped over the years, there is a lot I wouldn't know about. I also used to never snoop. It started after xow. Not that I'm blaming him for my behavior...just that it certainly happens when he starts acting suspiciously. I can go months without even caring.



Well, I agree. Just got the impression this morning that I needed to let him cool off/absorb for a bit. I think I'll call him in a bit, see how he's doing. I know he's tired, too. May or may not tell him more, depending on that.



Hm. Never thought of it that way...

Yeah, it just dawned on me on how to explain it to him. (Didn't there used to be a smiley with devil horns? For an evil grin? Ah, well. I wanted to stick one in here...)

Anyway, his mom has had this bf for the last four years. Except, she still insists, that B is not her boyfriend. xh is always messing with her about it... Anyway, I think I may point out that he's doing exactly the same thing with JD. The "we're not together" crap. (When they clearly are.)

Also, I don't think I put it into so many words...but I want tell him I wasn't expecting a full-on marriage or lifetime commitment the last few months. Just that I didn't think it needed to be said that someone you're sleeping with shouldn't be saying ILY and all that gag-inducing crap to other people. Maybe I will also point out that, if he is embarrassed/ashamed/doesn't want me to know about it, that should flag it to him that there's something wrong with the behavior.

Ugh. Ugh ugh. I really think I would have completely walked away if we didn't have a kid.

Just feeling frustrated. I do think he's made huge progress the last year...if I can only push him some more the right direction... lol

If you are aiming for trying to get to admit he is "doing something wrong with JD"... you may be wasting time, and positive energies.

Figure out what is REALLY important to you, and focus on that first.

Do you most want him to admit that he's doing something "wrong"? Or is it enough if he just agrees to stop it?
In some situations, it is neccessary to get the other party to admit what they are doing is wrong, otherwise they wont actually STOP it... they'll just try to hide it. I dont know if your exH is in that posotion.

However, to my mind, the most important thing would be to get him to commit to you at the basic level of not dating other people.
If you want to put it to him as "stop acting like his mother", that is one way to go, i suppose.

If the quick comparison to his mom works... then great!
Otherwise, if you sense that he just doesnt want to admit doing anything wrong... you might want to drop that part of things.

Getting him to admit that he is 'dating' JD, will be a tough battle. You may want to avoid the negative energy involved in that battle.


IF he agrees that [whatever he is doing], you need him to stop doing it, for you to feel comfortable continuing to doing what YOU were doing with him.... then it may be unneccessary to argue about the rest of the issue.

If he repeats himself with the story of "we're not committed to each other, I didnt do anything wrong"...
I think it is a waste of your energy to try to argue right or wrong with him. (its actually probably why he brings it up. to deflect you).

rather, just stick with your statement, that for you to feel comfortable being with him, you need him to stop doing it. With her, or anyone else.

Not that what he's doing is wrong, per se, just that they're not-just-friends, Glass-style. (Maybe I should read that book. Keeping meaning to, anyway...)

This is a recurring theme with him, and not necessarily just about me. He keeps complaining that women "interpret" him wrong, that they "assume" too much is there. It's something he has asked me to help him figure out in the past year or so. To me, this is a prime example of it. Uh, duh, I would think you were dating me, too! Was just thinking that the comparison might put a new perspective on it...wasn't trying to say "You're acting just like your mom." (I know that's a bad idea. ;))



Good point. Maybe I should focus on what is/is not dating behavior? And avoid names of people?



It just dawned on me...that I may have contributed to this, unintentionally... lol It kept sounding familiar to me. I think I need to apologize to xh. I can recall convos where he'd say, "That's not a problem, since I'm single, right?" Duh. I think my own recent commitment-phobia may have contributed to this one here; I think I may have been trying to convince myself, instead of him.

Anyway. I gave him a quick call a bit ago, while I was on lunch. I asked him if he had a few minutes; he said it had to be quick. I said "I think I figured out how to explain it to you, so no, not quick." He laughed, said no, not quick. So I just said we could chat later. Not a weird convo; he sounded curious. So I'd say he's still open to talking.

very cool, that he wants to talk

TRAP AVOIDANCE:
If you focus on a list of very specific behaviours... then if he's "hooked on a feeling", he may well just find a different set of behaviours to give him that dating "high" feeling.

So, if you really want to make sure you are on the same page... I would suggest that you need to first communicate, and then get agreement to, certain PRINCIPLES, rather than very specific behaviours.

Certainly, i think it's worth spelling out a few crucial behaviours. Just dont think you're free and clear if he agrees to not do those specific things any more.

With someone who doesnt admit that they are dating another person, even though they very clearly are... that's going to be quite challenging
Been there, failed at that


PS:



I think that's just a cop-out to avoid responsability. I don tthink he truely wants your "help" in that area. (at least, not at the moment. he may have wanted it in the past)

there is NO WAY that any sane person is going to believe, that he doesnt know that saying "I love you", ..... well, you know.