Divorcebusting.com Forums Divorcebusting.com Archives For Newcomers Archives muddled and angry: Puddle's third thread

Better late than never, I think/jope:



Not sure if it's giving up or truly accepting that there are things out of your control.



JC thing probably over. If we have more sessions, they will be about us "working out details of the changes to the S or a D or designed to help me with my issues in communicating with her (which is something C and I think I could work on and W is willing to attend JC for). W knows I am dating. I've told her at least three times that I am "out there." She does not know any particular details about any dates or people I've been on dates with. She does not know there is one particular one I am seeing regularly.



Well, if that is how he feels or sees it (or would feel or see it), that is incredibly selfish. In fact, that is the very definition of cake eating.



I agree.



So planning on it. Sounds like a blast. Good times, good times.



Yes. Many Ls are mediators and vice versa.

Have you read Homer yet???

Hugs,
Nomo

Hey Nomo!



Not sure how he'd see it. Actually, I have a pretty good idea now. H has been really pissy toward me since we had that agreement about not needing to keep sloughing through this stuff. I was relieved, but since then, he's been distant and cold.

Last night he told his parents, and I went out to talk to him when he came back. He said they're okay with it (which I realized was a disappointment to me; hadn't realized I'd been expecting them to be against it, but looking back, I was). I haven't seen them yet since, but will in the next hour or so.

We talked a bit about how to tell the kids. He wants to start off with something like "We've decided it's best to live in two places." All of the things people say you should say, like it's okay to be sad, you didn't do anything to cause this, etc, logically follow bad news, but H isn't thinking of presenting it that way, so I wanted to hear his thoughts.

That opening sentence is about as far as he's got. He started saying a lot depends on me and my reactions, and I took the opportunity to reassure him I would never lay blame to the kids or tell them it was papa's decision, etc.

He interrupted me to say, "I'm not talking about what you'd say, but I wish I could make you think and feel a certain way."

H is concerned that no matter what efforts I make to be neutral and fair with the kids, "they're not stupid," and if I'm still against the S, "cling to the belief that this isn't what [I] want and it wasn't [my] decision," as he says, they'll see through it.

I was floored. First off, I guess I thought he'd say thanks, but he was really aggressive and angry, and pretty much said straight out he wants to control how I think and feel.

I wish I'd said something like, "Yeah, life would be a lot easier if we could do that," but I said, "Well, yeah, I wish I could make you think and feel a certain way, too." He asked what way, and I said, "It doesn't matter. My point is, I'm going to do my best by the kids, and that means not laying blame."

I realized a couple of things. First, all this talking we've been doing, that I thought was holding us together, in a way, was 100% all about H convincing me of his position to the extent that I'd adopt it as my own. Since I'm not doing that, since I "cling to the belief that" it's not my choice, he's p*ssed off.

He was talking finances last night in a much, much more self-serving way, said something about if I moved a guy in the house in two weeks who makes a lot of money, he wouldn't want to continue paying for it, stuff like that. It was a bit scary, but it'll have to be okay.

Second, H firmly believes, and maybe he's right, that I can't possibly be accepting and moving on as long as I believe things could have been different. Actually, I don't think he's right, but he's firm on that belief, so there's nothing I can do about it. When he made that statement about me "clinging" I said, "It is your decision and it's not what I want." Didn't need to do that, but what he said made me feel like I'm just in la-la land. He's incredibly frustrated with me, and man alive, is he unpleasant to be around right now.



So planning on it. Sounds like a blast. Good times, good times.[/quote]

Glad to hear it!



No, I left it at my friend's after the camping-trip fiasco and have yet to retrieve it. I will, though. I'm feeling a bit stuck, and could use a good read like this.

I'm feeling pretty crappy about H right now. Since we're on a family vacation, I'll go along and do kid/IL stuff with a smile (unfortunately it's pouring rain today, which feels fitting). Apparently as long as I don't say, "It's my choice, too, and it couldn't have been different," he's going to be frustrated with me.

Maybe it's time to bust out the "You're right, H, it could never work. I want this too!" It's exasperating having someone want you to want something you don't, which must be exactly how H feels.

I'll read Homer. I'm done arguing, even just pointing out my own position. It doesn't matter what I say, what H believes. Right now I just can't wait to get away from him.

Sigh. Thanks, Nomo. Take care all.

Well, I spent the afternoon yesterday with the ILs, just the three of us. They brought up the fact that H told them he's leaving, and MIL got a little teary, said she was shocked (I said "me too"), but that we're both adults (H and I) and she's certain we'll be able to have a good R. (MIL has been married three times, now to H's dad, never had kids, and is a very successful businesswoman, so she has a different perspective than I.)

FIL, a very dear man, said right off that he hoped this wouldn't affect their R with the kids; I said of course not, they'd always be the grandparents, and I'd work hard to keep contact between them and the kids. They told me I'd always be family, that I should call them immediately if I ever have problems, etc. They wondered how I'd make it financially. (So do I.)

All in all, it was a lovely afternoon---heck, wine-tasting in beautiful country, it's hard to beat---though sad, of course. It felt like a goodbye. I was interested to hear that the news threw them off to the extent that MIL has been having to reassure FIL that they're solid.

Today H has been more pleasant. ILs asked if we'd like to go home early; H asked if I wanted to leave (alone; I said no). Today H asked if I want all of us to go home, and I thought about it. Said the weather's fine and the kids are having fun, so I'm fine staying. He kind of laughed, and I realized something. He sees me as very indecisive, I think, and this was one more example. I said, "Look, I don't have a strong preference either way, so my next concern is what the kids want. Do you have a strong preference?" He said no, fine with him.

The other thing I realized is, I have had trouble making decisions before. It's something I've been working hard on for a while, even pre-bomb, and I'm pretty happy with the strides I've made. I do tend to think things over still, don't have that "pusher" that Nomo and CVA talk about, but I don't feel like I'm all about "I don't care; what would YOU like to do?" anymore.

Whether or not H sees a difference there is of no consequence to me. This tells me that in that respect, at least, I'm uber-detaching. I'm not totally happy with myself in regard to decision-making, but I'm feeling good about where I am there. H can stuff himself.

Today H flipped out at one of our kids, and I took them to the pool. He came and said he was going for a walk, then when we were done swimming, I called H and told him we were going to lunch, asked if he'd like to join us. He declined. I told him after lunch we were going a couple of places (that he had said he'd join us for), and he said he'd call when he was done walking and we could pick him up if we were around. He didn't call. Kids and I had a lovely lunch, some ice cream, and went to a couple of very cool places. Now H has gone for a massage, and kids and I are hanging out at the hotel.

And you know what? It was fun, probably much more fun than it would've been if H had been there. And this is pretty much how I see my future.

I've been thinking about the idea of not needing H but preferring to have him. I've been thinking that not needing someone because I'm complete in myself and happy with my life, but preferring to have them around because they add to it, must be the ultimate R.

The moment I realized I didn't need H anymore, really, really felt I didn't need him, I didn't want him anymore. That to me says something about H and our R. I don't want him now. He's controlling, morose, and unengaged; on top of those qualities he's always had, right now he's acting selfish and cold. None of this is attractive to me.

A phase? A self-defense mechanism? I'm not sure. Any thoughts?

Hope you're all doing well. Take care.

Hi Puddle- a quick thought before I head out.
Although I wouldn't say it's a phase, it does seem that we all have to pass through certain stages in order to move to the next one, no skipping allowed.
Your post is so similar to what I posted around the same time.
The great part is that it's definite progress & a further step in detaching.
It is a zig-zag though, so don't be thrown by a step back or sideways. Nomopo got a taste of my own step back today

Your interaction with you IL's was very strong & positive.

L&L,

Sunny

Good description Sunny on the phases, zig zag...perfect

What up Sunny J? Bad day? Poor Nomo getting calls from me yesterday and you tofay!

Hey sunny!



Really? That's interesting. From reading the boards, I feel like I've been moving so fast that I must be cheating, stuffing my emotions, or just one cold fish compared to some of the folks here with very impressive endurance.



It definitely feels like it to me, today anyway.



Now there's the rub. I feel like if I could hold on to the way I feel today for a long time, I'd be golden.



Oh gosh. Is everything alright? I just realized I checked Nomo's thread when I read this, but not yours! I'll check back.



Yeah, they're good people. I've been blessed to call them family.



Um, Sunny? What does that mean? (love and laughs?)

Gee, CVA, maybe *I* should call Nomo. No wonder the guy's too busy to post---he's on the phone all the time! Hope you're doing well. BTW, I say go for the fixer! Did you hit any hot spots tonight?

Thanks for stopping by! Take care.

Ooh...this jumped out at me. I think *I* married h because he loved me sooo much. I think I felt that him loving me was enough. I did/do love him but I think I allowed myself to be persuaded to love him rather than come to love him all on my own. While he has been getting progressively unhappier over time, it has spilled out onto me in increasingly meaner and inconsiderate ways (from my point of view).

Just a thought I wanted to share.

C

Hey Puddle,

This was from a couple of pages back & I meant to comment a while ago;




I believe this is standard WAS material, taken right from the central script. I have heard some version of this off & on for 6 months, the "looking for my true love partner" & it's not you b/c I would just feel it outlook.

Michele & Homer, along with most of the other sources around here, cover this looking for the "magical person" to have a "magical R" with.

I would say it's sad that a person could really think that this mindset has much of a basis in reality, however, I remember thinking the same thing when I was a WAS many years ago.
Until we're sort of educated on the dynamics of relationships, this magical thinking prolly seems attainable.
We know better, unfortunately, the WAS like your H, doesn't, and the more you argue/try to convince, the more he will hold on to it & just know it isn't you.
It's so hard to stay quiet when your H is enlightening you on how miserable his R is with you & it's impressive that you're able to "stuff your emotions" when he does.



That's where we all aspire to stay for as long as possible, isn't it? Getting there for longer & longer periods at a time is the ticket & it looks like you're moving pretty quickly along in that direction.

Reading the Homer piece on the internet is less daunting (skimming it is even easier) than dealing with a pile of papers, and worth the effort even if only 1 new concept stands out & makes sense, IMHO.



I agree on all of the above

Love & Luck,

Sunny

Hey casey,

Nice to see you! Thanks for posting. You know, I had two Rs before H with men who clearly were far more invested than I. It was a total turnoff for me, and I ran screaming from both of them.

I had strong feelings for H, too, in fact put myself out there to him pretty far (for me), and was happy he responded. That was a long time ago, though, all about being needy, and I've come pretty far since then. I think that's what's making the difference now. I would've stayed with him forever, though, I think. Funny, this growth spurt was already in the works, but he really sped things along for me. I hate to admit that!



Yeah, I think you're right. I wonder what would happen if the WAS stumbled upon that stuff all on their own, online say. Would anything click for them? Who's to say. I know my H believes he's totally unique. He keeps dismissing common wisdom about telling the kids---"Those people don't know anything about us"---so I wonder if he'd be surprised to find he's speaking from a script.

As a side note, I'm keeping track of some of the funnier things H has said to me; I wonder if others have any. For example, "It's like a religious conversion. To unbelievers, it may look like I'm crazy. But I know for me it's real." "It's like if I wanted to be with a (insert ethnicity here) woman; you couldn't change that." "A cat person can't become a dog person." And my personal favorite, "Would you still be mad if I'd discovered I were gay?"



It finally occurred to me last night that I'd downloaded Homer, so I began to read. The part you mention is the exact part that jumped out at me. (So much didn't seem applicable; maybe I'm more like H than I think.)

The other part that jumped out at me was the one about ego, the person who says, "Sure, this happens to other people, but ME?" I've felt that way. I realized I'm embarrassed that H wants to leave, that I feel less-than because of it. I'm working on changing that---hey, I'm just like everyone else; why *shouldn't* this happen to me? Gotta work on strengthening that ego, especially since Homer claims that that's at the root of the magical thinking issue.

The one I'm having a VERY hard time with is dating, and I know Michele has other ideas about this. I am completely uninterested in dating, and I'm pretty sure I can build the life I want without it for now. Certainly eventually I'd like to have a partner, but I can't imagine dating right now. Would it wake H up? My guess is quite possibly. But I'm absolutely not there right now.



As far as I remember, I have *never* disagreed with H about this. Actually, when he very first told me, I said something about believing that we choose our own happiness and create the feelings we have in an R, and I got that "You have no clue what I'm talking about" shake of the head. That's certainly arguing on my part. I haven't said anything since then (I don't think), and have just sat there like a nodding lump while he reiterates how much he Does Not Want to Be with Me, how pointless and selfish it would be to ask me to "become a different person," etc.



I'm doing okay there. I realized in the car on the way home today, with H doing at least 100, which he knows scares the bejesus out of me, that I'm still thinking about what he thinks, watching how he reacts, etc. I also catch myself thinking, what an ass, which is still investment. My goal is not just not react to it, but not to think about it. That's a tall order.



Ah, thanks.

Here's my question about Homer. He's very into agreeing with everything, says who wants to leave someone who always agrees with them? I think my H would, in fact I think he would run. He *hates* it when I hear and validate him without arguing (calmly), says he wants to hear what *I* think.

I think this is what Nomo meant when he said if I went "full Homer" my H would freak out. I think he would. Maybe I just haven't perfected the sincere agreement. Maybe I just sound like I'm saying, "Okay, whatever, don't want to talk about it." I'll have to work on that.

Today H was again distant and cool. (As Homer says, "That's okay, I don't need you to be considerate and kind" or something.) I think the next time he brings up plans, I'm going to take the bull by the horns in the Homer style. Maybe say something like, "You're right H, this would never work. We'll all be much happier separately. Now, how about we talk to the tax guy and figure out what the financial implications would be there?"

Any thoughts? Other suggestions?

Oh, and one more question: My H says he needs to move out because he can't feel comfortable starting his new life here, especially since I said I don't want to live with him when he wants to bring other women here. This seems like a very reasonable boundary to me (not when he's just seeing other women, but when he wants to bring them HERE). Would Homer say I should say, "Sure, hon, go ahead and bring women over. It's all good"?

It would be soooo much easier financially if H stayed here. To be honest, if I said, "You know, you're right. It's totally over, and I'm okay with you bringing women here," he might very well still move out because HE'D feel uncomfortable. Any thoughts?

Thanks, everyone. Take care.

Puddle,
Just a quick thought on bringing women over. That's not just a bad idea for you and him, think of what your kids would think if they saw daddy holding hands/kissing a woman not their mommy. You never know when the little buggers are going to be up and about even when you're doing your best to be secretive.

Freak him out. Do the Homer full monty, but not on the women at home thing.

BD