So, here's what happened. This is a mess of a post, but bear with me, please.
As I said, I had called W earlier today to ask her where the charger for the iPod was, since I intended to go to the gym on Friday (still do). Left her a voicemail. She called me back at 2:45 CST, and said that she didn't know where it was. We exchanged a little small-talk. Light stuff that related to if there were plans for gaming at our friends' this weekend, and an explanation why I had been so insanely loopy on Tuesday at work (L-Theanine give me pressure headaches! whee!).
The she asked about the Prius, and if I had done the math on whether I could afford it or not. I said that the Prius would have to be sold.
She asked if I needed help w/ the October payment, and I said "Yes. Besides, you entered into a financial commitment when we purchased the car."
She commented that I had been the one driving it, and I returned that I had offered to let her drive it whie I took her Cavalier. Regardless, it came down to her saying that from the money left over from paying off the loan, she would like the $300 security deposit she had put down on the apt, and the $150 she paid for the Prius for October.
Then we got into a discussion (argument, sort of, but in level tones, no shouting) about that. It's my opinion that she shouldn't get that money. For one, she claims that she's in financial stress right now, and I know she is, but with $12,000 in an investment fund, and a better job than me, I think she can handle the $150 loss.
Anyway, we spiraled around for about 10-15 minutes on how I had given up a car that had had only 67,000 miles on it, and was paid off. We got under Blue Book for my Taurus ($5k; it later sold for about $8k at the lot where we got the Prius). Argued some about just what I needed in a car (I want a Cavalier of my own w/ 45,000 or less on it; she thinks I should be OK settling for one with 67,000 -- regardless of the fact that I'd still have to pay off $3,000 minimum).
Mostly unprodutive car talk, in which she said that she wasn't going to be getting anything out of the $750 that she'll have put into the Prius from May-October. I, on the other hand, pointed out that I had paid one car off, now I'd have to do it again, alone.
She said that "I have to start all over again - new security deposit, higher rent, buy new furniture, and pay more for utilities."
To which I responded: "Me, too. No security deposit, but higher rent, more for utilities, I have to buy new furniture, a new TV [which is equal investment to security deposit, now that i think of it], an a higher cost of living."
That seemed to end that approach.
...then, somehow, I'm not sure who started it, but we got into R-Talk.
Alot of it was about how things fell apart.
Some of the highlights of what she said, key points:
1. She says that she realized that she has been living with some level of fear for all six years of our relationship. Mild to severe, on how angry I would be about a particular issue, or how I would come home at night after work.
[i feel it is very important to stress that I never EVER physcially assulted her in ANY way. If I had, I'd have deserved anything that was thrown my way. I was a judgmental ass at stressful times, though]
2. She thought that this could be worked out/worked through, and that things would change. (And, in fact, I was working out alot of problems - it's just in the past 8 months that things nosedived.). Turns out she changed her mind on that.
3. She said that her trust that I would not hurt her/act disrespectful and harmful - controlling, emotionally abusive, and so on - had been tested, and tested, and finally broken to a point (where she is now) where she feels/knows that it can never be repaired. "No amount of counciling would be able to repair that trust"
4. She says that she's felt this strain/stress for over a year. That means she married me feeling doubts about our future.
I asked her, after she gave me the time frame:
"Megan, I have one very important, very straightforward question for you then. Why did you marry me?"
...her response was, essentially, that she had the "foolish thought" that things would be able to change and get better.
I told her then that I believed that marriag was hard work, and that I had made those vows knowing that - knowing that there would be hard times. But the idea of "for better or for worse" meant that you work through those dark times.
She said "I just knew that I couldn't spend the rest of my life paying pennance for my mistake"
We talked about B.
About how her friendship with him affected our M. I told her that, as she and him got closer and they spent more time together, it had genuinely begun to bother me - that I felt like an outsider in my own marriage. I said this in a level voice.
She said that she had been "constantly reassuring" me that there was nothing going on and that nothing was wrong. She "constantly showed" that [her words] "I loved you best".
She apparently did this by telling me she loved me, showing physcial affection (hugging, kissing, cuddling; sex, too of course, but the first three were what she meant), and complimenting me.
Thing is - in my mind - that's how you act towards your spouse!
She, even now, refused the idea of compromising by dailing back the amount of physcial contact she had with B, or by spending less time with him -- in other words, by changing her relationship in any way what-so-ever. That for me to ask was "way too controlling" and asking her to cut herself off from friends.
She admitted that in the last 2 months of our M, she was closer to B than she was to me, emotionally, because he was offering her more support and being kinder. Meanwhile, I was upset about this and more angry because she was spending more time with B. It was a nasty cycle.
She admitted, too, that maybe she had spent too much time with him (or something close to that).
She admitted that she hadn't brought up problems in the good times, when they could be discussed - neither had I. She said that was something we could both learn from for future relationships.
...she also said she worked "damn hard" on the relationship every day. While I know she put up with alot of sh*t from me, she - even as someone who's seeking to become a Marriage and Family Councilor - didn't ever suggest therapy except in the most troubling arguments where we really dished it out (about 2-3 a year).
She admits where she went wrong, but still maintains that the amount of control, negativity, and my completely not respecting her as a person are reasons why she can't trust in me in a relationship anymore.
Also, she said that in the past year and a half or so, she has [her words] "matured and grown as a person - begun to shine, and come to an understanding of who I want to be, and how I want to be treated" and said to me "you haven't matured or grown at all".
I only recently discovered what it was I really wanted to do, while she's had a plan all along. that stung.
There was alot of stuff said in specific about her friendship w/ B, and stuff said about how I've acted.
I said, stupidly, near the end of the convo, "I'm sorry I've wasted the past six years of your life."
She said that they hadn't been a waste, and that there would always be good memories.
Somewhere else in there, I said: "...I mean, unless I miss my guess, you loved me - at some point."
Her: "Of course I did. I still do love you [pause/muffled words] in my own way I'll always love you."
I'm sorry this is so disjointed. There was alot of back-and-forth talk that didn't go much of anywhere except for her telling me I had been awful to her, and me telling her that I understood that I'd put her through pain, but I had to endure some sh*tty stuff, too.
After the conversation (she had to go because she was already an hour late for work due to it) I took off my ring. It didn't hurt. I drove to work with it off, and only put it back on so I didn't have to answer questions about it being off from people who don't know what's going on.
I still have it on (still at work), and I'm feeling...odd. The conversation itself seemed to say "this is TOTALLY OVER. FOREVER." ...even though she wants to be friends, she proclaims that we could never (yes, she said never) be together again as a couple. She said that our marriage was "broken" and used other synomyms a few times, such as "that's why our marriage failed" (lack of communication/proper handling of situations).
Damn.
This is probably a total mess of a post.
In short, that conversation might've been a huge mistake. But I couldn't pull myself away - even though I knew, in part, I was screwing myself over.
I know that it's said "believe nothing of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see", but...it seemed brutally final for her and she gave reasons that made me feel ashamed of how I had acted these past years (even if she has exaggerated in her mind, or if she's only focusing on the really bad).
It's going to be a long time before she ever trusts me again, as a person, it feels.
Ugh.
At least, her phone died and she had to call me back, and said, far more calmly that she had been speaking, "let's walk away from this right now and cool down. we can talk again sometime later."
Meaning, when we're both not pissed-off emotional wrecks. What that'll be about I don't know (probably property), but...I'm glad we were able to end the conversation relatively civilly.
Just thought I'd quickly comment that we have another thing in common besides the age and Daily Show -- I used to teach high school English. Always enjoy meeting like-minded individuals -- I knew there was a reason I was drawn to post to you!
Awesome. I'm gonna teach HS or Middle School History/Social Studies.
OK. So, it's like 2:45am, but I don't work tomorrow.
I think that the conversation, as ugly as some of it was, has helped me distance myself from W.
Her saying "I couldn't spend the rest of my life paying pennance for a mistake" hurt one hell of alot.
I know I acted wrongly, alot, but if she was having doubts before the marriage, she should have had the courage to go to pre-marital councel, or bring something up.
I'm still upset (pi$$ed) with the way she talked to me, and the way she said things. But I think I've also distanced myself from her. And, according to room-mate, W was fine and chipper tonight (W, room-mate, B, and a couple other friends started a new gaming campaign).
Since, right now, I don't really feel like there's anything left to lose, I might go "full Homer". heh. re-reading Homer first to make sure I'm that fully invested.
"Okay. I understand you want this divorce. I would've preferred to make this marriage work, but you're right. It isn't going to. Let's get this over with."
She asked if I needed help w/ the October payment, and I said "Yes. Besides, you entered into a financial commitment when we purchased the car."
You provoked a bad situation and ill feelings on her part by adding the "besides". You should've just said, "I do need help with it. Thanks for offering." You're acting like her parent by saying what you said -- basically telling her what her obligations are. It was controlling, and was not a wise move (and was completely unnecessary). Learn from this backslide.
Quote:
...then, somehow, I'm not sure who started it, but we got into R-Talk.
Next time, be sure that YOU KNOW YOU AREN'T INITIATING IT. Let her initiate, and then simply listen, empathize, and validate her feelings -- WHETHER OR NOT YOU AGREE WITH THEM. They are her feelings about the R, and to earn her respect you must accept them -- not agree with them, but accept them and understand.
Quote:
I told her then that I believed that marriag was hard work, and that I had made those vows knowing that - knowing that there would be hard times. But the idea of "for better or for worse" meant that you work through those dark times.
You stopped validating and empathizing when you made this statement. You should've said something like, "I understand how you felt disrespected because of my controlling behavior. Things were difficult and I didn't meet your needs the way I should've. I should've paid more attention to how sad you were in our M and worked harder at being there for you. I'm sorry." This empathizes with and validates her feelings.
Quote:
She admits where she went wrong, but still maintains that the amount of control, negativity, and my completely not respecting her as a person are reasons why she can't trust in me in a relationship anymore.
And they are pretty good reasons if you ask me (I was the exact same way with my W). Now you have to be patient and do the work to change these behaviors and show her over a long period of time that you have learned from your mistakes and can be the H she deserves. Time to get to work, my friend! Marathon -- remember?
Quote:
Also, she said that in the past year and a half or so, she has [her words] "matured and grown as a person - begun to shine, and come to an understanding of who I want to be, and how I want to be treated" and said to me "you haven't matured or grown at all".
Opportunity to empathize and validate.
Quote:
There was alot of back-and-forth talk that didn't go much of anywhere except for her telling me I had been awful to her, and me telling her that I understood that I'd put her through pain, but I had to endure some sh*tty stuff, too.
Good job empathizing and validating here, but as soon as you said "but..." it erased all of the empathy and validating. It isn't time for you to talk about YOUR pain -- not yet. You need to get her to come back before you can discuss your needs and your pain. Doing so now will not help your sitch. You have to put your needs on the backburner for now.
Quote:
After the conversation (she had to go because she was already an hour late for work due to it) I took off my ring. It didn't hurt. I drove to work with it off, and only put it back on so I didn't have to answer questions about it being off from people who don't know what's going on.
Either keep it on or keep it off, but make sure you understand why you do either one. I wish I would've kept mine on all the way to D day (took mine off way to early, and did so out of spite). Think about it a good deal before making a decision.
Quote:
The conversation itself seemed to say "this is TOTALLY OVER. FOREVER." ...even though she wants to be friends, she proclaims that we could never (yes, she said never) be together again as a couple. She said that our marriage was "broken" and used other synomyms a few times, such as "that's why our marriage failed" (lack of communication/proper handling of situations).
Feelings change, MN, and you have a better chance at this happening if you focus on you, GAL, make your changes, 180s, etc, and SHOW her that you can, will, and are growing from this experience. That's all you can do, and believe me -- things can change! You must stay on track and keep the PMA going though, okay?
Quote:
It's going to be a long time before she ever trusts me again, as a person, it feels.
YES IT IS! She's been feeling pain for several years, and it's not going to change just like that. Marathon, brotha... how bad do you want her, how hard are you willing to work and how patient are you willing to be? Honestly ask yourself these questions.
Can't top or add much to what GD told you. That's how these conversations HAVE TO go. There isn't a way it would go differently or she would be wanting to work on the marriage. Do you understand? But it is how she feels at the moment. Time needs to pass and she has to see some changes. You did okay on the conversation, but my gut impression is that you didn't just "take it"; that you defended yourself, indicated you've changed, or otherwise didn't validate her feelings. The most important thing is to shake this off and act as if it never happened. Don't let her know how much it hurt. Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt. Eventually you may even be amazed at how you can be proud that you can take it.
Me
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
You guys have given me alot of reading material to contemplate. Between the pre-phone-call long posts and the post-phone-call long posts, I've got a lot to process.
Thanks for being straightforward and honest about how I handled the call. I know I made mistakes in there, but the responses seemed so natural. Which is the reason not to say them, I guess. It's natural to defend yourself - less so to just roll with the problems.
I'm going to actually do a little GAL that puts me outside my comfort zone. Some friends have invited me to go to a local bar. They've apparently got good food, and I guess there's a Red Sox game on. Not looking to meet women or anything like that, but spending time with friends (and maybe even having a beer) has the chance of being fun.
Sorry about the rough talk. You've got some great feedback, and it takes time to really let all this stuff sink in so the "natural" self-defense response doesn't automatically kick in. You're doing great, and you'll do better and better.
What's up with the letter to FIL? I understand you said your intention isn't to win him over but rather to express true regret to a man you respect. One thought: not the time to do it. There'll be plenty of time in the future, like if things don't work out.
I just talked to my inlaws today for the first time since H told them he's leaving, and was surprised by their reaction. My sitch is different, since H says he doesn't blame me for anything and we have kids, but they basically said first, we hope we'll still have access to the kids, and second, hey, you're both grownups, we're sure you can pull this off just fine and friendly. Oky doky.
Good for you for getting out of your comfort zone and getting out there. How did it go?
I do indeed have great feedback. . .the sinking in's kinda happening, now.
I'm not sending letter to FIL. Not going to do anything until things fall more into place.
As for the bar thing, it was alot of fun. Four of us went through two pitchers of beer, I had a nice glass of scotch, and we BS'ed on alot of subjects. Plus, yummy Cajun fries, chicken wings, and stuffed mushrooms. I also had the pleasure of seeing the Red Sox v Indians game on a 42" plasma screen TV. By the end of the game I was a little less coherent on just what was going on, but it was fun.
Among the myriad of stuff we talked about, I recounted the phone convo I mentioned to my friends. All three of these friends are of the opinion that yes, I was an ass, but that B and his wife and the way that they affect our social circle (they place themselves at the center, moral compasses who can do no wrong and guide their friends on the right path - in B and his wife's unspoke/semi-implied position) is negatively affecting my W's position.
At a couple of points, when I quoted W verbatim, my friend said "That sounds exactly like something [B/B's wife] would say." . . .and she's known them for longer than I have.
So while my W has alot of valid points, there is the fact that she's being fed support that might not come entirely from within. @_@
It's so f***ing complicated here. B and his wife have a history, actually, of freezing people out and painting some of them as people not to hang out with. So, this could be yucky. I'm actually glad that W is getting her own place. It might give her a chance to have ideas of her own, not B's and B's wife.
I'm still working on my GAL and "act as ifs" and 180s. It's an odd point right now. I have accepted that this is probably over, and that I might have to find other women to date. But, even though things are tense and harsh right now between W and I, I still love her so very, very much, and if she and i managed to reconcile, it'd be amazing.
Damned human emotions. Why can't we just be straightforward and logical like Vulcans? There'd be no wars, and relationships would be a hell of alot simpler!
