you need to interview therapists before deciding to go to them.
Ask questions either on the phone or in person. If they won't anwer your questions would you really want them to give you advice?
Ask questions like- what is your view on saving a marriage?, could you give me a rough estimate of how many couples you think have saved their marriage by coming to you? Do you need to see both Spouses to save a marriage? ......
There's a thread on here somewhere with a lot more. I'll see if I can dig it out.
1. With the exception of one phone call that was a follow-up to hers, and a question of clarification on a phrase she used, I have not contacted her, nor in any way initiated any conversation about our divorce since she walked out.
Excellent! Good for you.
Originally Posted By: Puddle
Originally Posted By: MinnesotaMan
I have begun to question this stance, in part. Because I wonder if I'm giving her the impression that I'm going to let her do whatever she wants in this, even if it ends up being unfair to me.
I don't think you need to worry too much about this. If you think she's being unfair, you can stand up for yourself, calmly and kindly. Does it really matter what impression she has before that?
If I stand up calmly and kindly, I guess her previous impressions really wouldn't matter.
Originally Posted By: Puddle
Originally Posted By: MinnesotaMan
Then there are two other small tables, which were wedding presents, but from "her side of the family" - which she feels makes her entitled to them, even though they were gifts to both of us.
How badly do you want the tables?
Not much. It'll be annoying to have to replace them, but I don't have a deep attachment to them. It's more that I think it's sad that she's taking things that were wedding gifts. And that she's taking pretty much the whole dining room. :\
Originally Posted By: Puddle
Originally Posted By: MinnesotaMan
She's said that the DVD shelves and one of the couches are mine. I'm NOT going to let her take the end-tables, since she's taking the whole damn dining room.
Because you need or want them or because she wants everything else?
90% because I want/need them, 10% 'cause she wants the other furniture. In all honesty, the end tables as well as the couch and TV leaving would make the room almost totally empty, and harder to refurnish.
Originally Posted By: Puddle
Originally Posted By: MinnesotaMan
What it comes down to is this: she wants us to each make a list of the stuff we want or feel is ours. We will each go over the other's list, and if there are any contested items, we will talk it over.
This sounds like a reasonable approach to me.
It is - but I want to talk to a lawyer to get it straight who has claims to what.
Originally Posted By: Puddle
Originally Posted By: MinnesotaMan
I find this a little concerning for two reasons: 1) She is, in some ways, very wrapped up in the material aspects of this whole thing.
You can't do anything about this, and it doesn't mean she'll get everything she wants. What are you worried about here?
It feels like the romance/love aspect of our relationship meant nothing to her. She cried, yes, but when she is so focused on the material things, it just feels like she's just being...cold. Worse, like her mother. I know that's a cliche phrase, but her mom can be f---ing SCARY when she wants to "get" someone. Not that W would be as pursuing, but *shrug*
Yeah. I guess that she's seeming more materialistic than I've ever seen her be in more than seven years of knowing her.
Originally Posted By: Puddle
Originally Posted By: MinnesotaMan
2) She seems to feel that she's entitled to more stuff than I am. Granted, some of the thigns are hers which came before the marriage and things that I don't really care too much about. But there are other aspects which I'm less comfortable with.
First, figure out why you're uncomfortable: because you need these things for financial reasons? want them for sentimental reasons? want W not to have them because she's leaving you? or something else?
This ones' gonna take some thought. I'm not sure whatall I feel. Some of it might well be the petty "don't want her to have it because she's leaving".
Originally Posted By: Puddle
Then tell her what you want. See what happens. You can't control her responses, but it sounds right now like this is eating you up in pure anticipation. Not good.
It kinda is. Thus me trying to relax/work on my list thing. And trust that she's not a bad person.
Originally Posted By: MinnesotaMan
Anyway, when I said I wanted that, and proposed that she take the iPod in exchange, she said: "What about the iPod and the digital camera?"
...a $250 digital camera and a 4-GB iPod Nano. In exchange for the surround sound system? NFW.
You have a few options. "Okay." (Probably out re your NFW.) "Actually those will cost twice as much to replace as the system. How about the iPOD or the camera?" And certainly others. [/quote]
As far as a preliminary convo went, she's going to take the camera.
Originally Posted By: Puddle
Originally Posted By: MinnesotaMan
What actually effing SCARES me is that it seems that W has taken some divorce advice from her mom. Who, even the kindest, least judmental person I know refers to as "freakin' crazy". She cleaned out W's dad when the two of them got divorced. W complained about the treatment that her dad received - and now she's taking some advice from the psycho who inflicted that gouging?
It sounds like you're reacting out of a lot of emotion, and fear is no place to act from. It makes you guarded, you give off a strong smell o' fear, and you'll expect the worst from her, which she'll sense and probably get defensive about. Get a handle on it before you and she talk about this stuff.
You're very right on this. That's something I definately need to work on controlling.
I'm not a weak-willed person, but she's definately got conversational confidence. Five years of working in a work situation where she has to be firm in her resolve/holding her stance has taught her that (working one-on-one w/ children).
Originally Posted By: Puddle
Here's a question for you, and I'm not trying to be facetious: How much can she really take you to the cleaners? I understand the car thing is an issue, but if we're talking about end tables and small appliances, it sounds like these things can be replaced fairly cheaply.
If she really wanted to be vindictive, she could take alot of stuff. Small appliances and such add up, for a guy who doesn't have a big income. Roommate and I are going to go in on a new TV.
Originally Posted By: Puddle
I don't think you should lay down and let her walk all over you, but it would be a good idea to figure out what you're reacting to so strongly, what this fear is (that she'll take your iPod or break your heart? for example). When you've done that, you'll be able to stand up for yourself in good conscience, without overreacting or doing something you'll regret.
Something else I really need to think about. I've got some time at home tomorrow, so a walk might be time to think on that.
If I am afraid of a "broken heart"? I mean, the pain of this is monumental at times. Others, it feels like I'm dealing. So in part these little things make it sharper and more real.
Originally Posted By: Puddle
Here's one question for you: I know you say W is anxious to get the ball rolling and take care of this stuff. It's so very soon, of course. Have you thought of saying something like, "This is all happening really fast, and I'd like a little more time to transition before we get down to dividing stuff up. Is that okay with you?" Forgive me if you've already said something about this.
I'm not sure how well that would work. Not because of her willingness to do such a thing, but because she's intent on getting an apartment by November 1st. So, she'll want that stuff. At least the basic furniture.
Originally Posted By: Puddle
If she senses that you're not trying to stop her, she may be willing to accommodate you.
I'm about nine weeks into this, and now I'm ready to talk brass tacks. I wasn't at three weeks, though, and I would've been very unhappy to be steamrolled into it then.
yeah. It's ... a little hard. She's not on me everyday, but she's definately concerned with some of the practical stuff.
As I said - we have only had one conversation where we talked R stuff in the 3.5 weeks since she walked out.
I want to cover some more stuff with her.
Honestly, I want to let her know the place I have been in these past 6-8 months. Not in a guilt-trip way, but just a "here's what I felt." presentation, because she was able to tell me what she felt, and her position.
Don't call her. It will make things worse. Hang in there, the next day will be better and better. Everyone is telling us we are still very early in the process, time is on our side, and things will get worse before it gets better. I hope this is true
Me 27 W 26 M 4.5 years Together 7.5 years No Kids Seperated 8/14/07 D bomb 8/30/07
don't call. Go for a jog. Do some sit ups and push ups.
Exercise is a great substitute. It gets your mind off things, releases endorphans, improves your mood, helps relieve stress, and makes you look good too!!!
Nah, I won't call her. I just really wanted to this morning. Didn't.
What I likely will do is write a letter that she'll likely never see, explaining how I feel about what's happened, what led up to it, and where I am now. It will at least help me get my thoughts in order for when we do talk again.
As for excercise - I'm doing what I can when I can. heh. Insane freakin' schedule kinda makes that tough. I've taken to doing some pushups in the morning, first thing when I get up. And the gym on Mon and Fri.
I had a job interview today at 1:00, and I think I did a pretty good job. It's a teacher's aide position at a school 4 blocks from my apartment (go-go gas savings!). It'd be working with kids w/ special needs in a classroom setting.
Seeing as I'm going to teach, eventually, this is a great stepping stone if I get this job. *fingers crossed* & praying.
OK. So, I decided to draft a letter to my father-in-law. My sister-in-law (and my wife) have described him as the least judgmental person they know - and SIL has said that he realizes that relationships take two. However, I did hurt his daughter, and there's alot of difficulty there.
What's below is a rough/first draft of the letter. My immediate thoughts, unrefined by my "writing skills". I am going to call SIL (who has been kind to me, even through this) and see if she thinks it'd be OK if I self FIL a letter.
Here goes (it's 1.5 pages in word! Whoo!):
October 10, 2007
FIL,
Hello. I’m not certain that this letter will even end up being read through to the end, or that I really have the right to write to you. But I feel that for me at least, it’s important that I do so, if I’m going to move on through this.
I’m sorry to have disappointed you, and to have brought about the pain inherent with a family suffering a fracturing like this.
I especially regret and apologize for the way that I acted towards your daughter. I did not act as a husband should towards his wife. In a time where I was faced with a great deal of personal stress and distaste for myself, I chose to take my anger and frustration out on those around me – friends and loved ones, who ended up dealing with a side of me that I am deeply ashamed of. I was full of negativity and spite at times, radiating these emotions out and pushing those I cared about further away, rather than attempting to deal with my emotions in a healthy way.
I became very jealous of [wife]’s friendship with "B", to a point where it began to impact my own friendship with "B", and my marriage to your daughter. I became extremely insecure and jealous of seeing a friendship that was unmarred by difficulties like she and I were having at the time. These feelings began to sabotage a relationship that I treasured.
I tried to work out my problems during the time [wife] and I were together – we both recognized that I had issues that were causing difficulties in our marriage, but we never successfully worked through them. Never made a full-on press to conquer the problems. Instead, in large part, when things were good we tried not to think about the negative issues that were affecting us.
In the last weeks, before [wife] walked out of the apartment, I was in a state of agitation most of the time. At the time, to me, it seemed like a state I really had a right to be in, regardless of what the logical part of my mind was telling me.
When she left me, I had a genuine revelation as to how I had been acting. I had been an angry, callous person who was venting poison into my relationships with everyone around me. And I had managed to finally push the person I loved most in the world too far, and made her choose to leave me. Because, even though I acted in ways that were ugly at times, I loved (and still love) Megan a very great deal. The bad times are not all there was – not even the majority of what we had, but they were a part. I would give anything, do anything, to retract the things I said and the ways I have acted over the past six months. Not because I want to be able to patch things up between [wife] and I, and with other friends, but because I want to not have emotionally hurt people the way I did.
I am making changes in my life, to see to it that I do not act like this towards anyone, including myself. I am taking anger management courses to learn to deal with the instinct reaction of being upset about something that I have no control over, or how to discern what really matters from the trivial.
I am also working through the deeper issues of personal insecurity and self-worth. Because for quite some time, I have not been happy with who I am, or where I am going in terms of my career or future, aside from having [wife] as my wife. This is something I intend to change – it is something I need to do for myself, to respect myself and the fact that I am, I believe, a good person.
I have a lot of hard work ahead of me, and part of that is atoning for the way I have treated people who are important to me.
I apologize for hurting your daughter. I apologize for hurting you and the rest of your family.
You’ve been very kind and generous to me over the years that [wife] and I were together. I thank you for that, and for your patience if you have read this letter through.
MMan This is a noble letter but should u really be lobbying her Father? It is filled with lots of apologies on your part and I undersatand your true "feeling" to tell him this, but will your W think it is u manipulating?
Just a thought C
Me: 46 Wife: 39 D: 13 S: 11, 9, 7 Bomb 3.2.07, Sep Same Day, D papers 11.1.07 Current Status - Wants to take me through Discovery, I will go to prison first.
IMO, this is a really bad idea. I assume you'd want to give him this to get him on your side (though I'm sure you wouldn't call it that; maybe to show him that you're truly changing so he'll speak favorably of you to W, but same thing).
If you sent this, he might take it to heart and speak on your behalf, or he might ignore it, who knows. But even if it were the former, there's no guarantee that your W would listen, and probably a good chance that, regardless, she'd be p*ssed at you for involving her family.
I think you'd be taking a huge risk for very little chance of success.
Listen, MMan, I know you're feeling rushed, you're still panicking a bit at this early stage, and patience isn't your strongest suit at the moment. But no matter how fast W wants to push this, there's no short-cut to doing the work you need to do, nothing you can do to help the journey she needs to make to find her way back to you if she's going to.
Please think long and hard about this letter thing.
