If applied too aggressively, sometimes the good intentions dig you in to a deeper hole.
My opinion of Karen1's position is, the more she does, the less Mr. K1 has to do or will do. Is that progress or trading one problem for another problem?
That is a lot of conjection and what-ifs.
Here's what we know as fact:
If karen does nothing, she will get no sex. This is the only proven fact that we have in the matter at this point.
Therefore, we know "doing nothing" is something that "doesnt work".
Quote:
What it would take for Mr. K1 to wake up and to increase his SD for Karen1, I don’t know.
That would be a wonderful thing to happen... but frankly, it doesnt matter. On two levels. First of all.. while it might be nice if his unnaturally low SD was "fixed"... fixing her husband isnt the issue, nor is it something under Karen's control, or even her responsability.
What is a bigger issue, is "what would make him CARE, that his wife is being neglected ,and actually DO something about it?" Him deciding to take care of his wife, has nothing to do with whether or not he personally feels horney or not.
Last edited by Dom R; 10/08/0702:05 AM.
My current status: june 2006. Wife ran out and filed D. Finalized Jan 11, 2010, after 12.5 years M. 3 wonderful sons caught in the middle
Hey K, Last nite I watched the HBO show Tell Me You Love Me and thought of you. There's this married couple overridden by raising kids and responsbility, and they haven't had sex in a year. The W starts therapy, and the H reluctantly joins in. The W is the one who wants to be intimate, but as it turns out, the H has been taking care of his sexual needs by MBing alone.
The show might be something you and H can watch together...might provide a basis for discussion. It's well acted, and the show is sexy. It follows 3 couples with relationship problems who happen to go to the same therapist.
Him deciding to take care of his wife, has nothing to do with whether or not he personally feels horney or not.
Not so fast. You can't really have sex if you don't personally feel horny. You can go through the motions, but it's pretty easy for the other person to notice that. But you can't really participate in a way that would actually satisfy the other person's needs if you don't personally feel horny. So you can love your wife all you want and you can decide to take care of her all you want, but you can't actually take care of her unless you are horny.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
I don't have HBO, so can you tell me, is at least one of these couples the normal HD man with LD woman, and if so, what are they doing to FIX the problem, and more importantly, is her desire level REALLY changing.
I have resisted commenting for awhile but I have to wonder how much of Karen's comments and answers you have really listened to. PLEASE note that she has been here since 2004 and the recent backing off of initiation is a NEW thing for her to try (a 180 if you will). I also wrote to her earlier this year with lots of ideas for improvements only to find that she had tried many of them already. Of course there is always room for improvement but I think Karen's situation may be beyond DBing technique and needs serious counseling. (This does not mean that DBing is harmful or useless for her sitch because I believe that it can still be useful. It does mean that I do not think it will solve the issue or cause her H to want to solve the issue.)
Here's what we know as fact:
If karen does nothing, she will get no sex. This is the only proven fact that we have in the matter at this point.
What is also FACT is that by insisting on going to a counselor regarding their sex life, initiating often, following the Love Languages model, writing him e-mail to specifically state her issues, asking for scheduled sex, etc. have also not worked either (using your definition of "working" i.e. getting PT). Her H does not seem confused about the issue that she wants more sex and physical contact. He also (Karen please correct me if I have remembered this wrongly) specifically told her before that if she would just back off and not pressure him that sex would happen more easily for him.
Therefore, we know "doing nothing" is something that "doesnt work".
No necessarily true but it depends on what Karen's purpose was. I will need Karen's opinion here because I believe that it has worked. What I think Karen wanted to accomplish with backing off and not initiating sex: 1) take some pressure and responsibility off of herself, 2) see if he really would step up to the plate as HE said that he would, and 3) just plain see what would happen and learn from it. So IF that was her purpose, I think it did work for her and she did learn something. Yes it did not turn out that he initiated sex but again I am not sure that was the overall purpose for her although it would have been a very welcome result.
What is a bigger issue, is "what would make him CARE, that his wife is being neglected ,and actually DO something about it?"
I agree that this IS the issue (Why will he not do something about his wife's need for PT when he does care for her (from karen's prior posts it seems clear that she does believe that he loves and cares for her)?) and it seems to me that this is exactly what Karen is trying to figure out. On one hand she does feel like he loves and cares for her in some ways but on the other hand he steadfastly refuses to do what she has clearly stated is important to her. THIS is what makes me, Karen and others here wonder if there is some significant sexual issue her H is wrestling with. And if it is significant (i.e. homosexuality, significant ED issues,or whatever), then constant pressuring may not improve the situation AND may cause their marriage to fall apart if the "secret" is such that he feels backed into a corner.
Karen,
My opinion, FWIW, is that you should take advantage of the backing off you have done and get to a sex therapist sooner than later. You have now "proven" to him that you can and will back off (as HE requested, right?) and that it does not cause the increase in his sexual initiation that he had stated/implied before. Also by not initiating you have reduced his stress level, which, supposing there is some deep dark secret, should ease his fear in talking about his and your issues. I believe that you are open to changing your approach; I just think you want to actually KNOW what you should change to and your H is really the only source for that information. Otherwise you'll just continue to throw darts and hope something sticks!!
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
To all who wonder if we "know" that my H is taking care of his needs alone. Not really. He has just made joking references to jacking off and references porn frequently especially when joking with my DS15 about what takes him so long in the bathroom or why the laptop is in his bedroom. H has said in the past very clearly that all men mb and view porn and he sees nothing wrong with it. He laughs loudly at any tv shows that make joking references to men and these habits. He will occasionally make references to women and toys or cucumbers or whatever. He seems woefully ignorant of how different this activity is between men and women. When it was brought up in therapy he said nothing and allowed the counselor to wax philosophical about fantasy being normal etc... without EVER asking him when? how often? what kind? etc.... I think the silence spoke volumes myself.
Dom - Lou is certainly correct that in the past the more I did, or pushed or flirted or tried or mentioned or whatever the situation got worse and worse, not just the sex situation but the marital situation too.
My H does love me and he does recognize how his schedule and mine relate to some of this. However, every time I have tried to pin him down on this and get some kind of committment like - How about planning some sex for Friday night or two night/week or whatever he starts that bs about being "spontaneous" or not wanting to feel "pressured into sex". The thing that I get really resentful about is that his LD determines everything in the M. His LD determines the sex, whether I complain about his attitude on any given day, my appearance, etc.... Everything gets centered around not what will "get" me sex but what will keep things from derailing further.
The funny thing is.... we are going on vacation on Sunday for a week. I'll bet $$ that my H is banking on sex while we are gone, has planned for it and is even looking forward to it. How do I know? This weekend which was too full of friends, family, activities etc.... for me to even know my own name much less to have done anything about this issue - H decides to get a little more kissy, little azz pat etc... Further, his birthday is this week and he may even be thinking that a little nookie would be nice that day but he won't be upset if it doesn't happen (for whatever nominal, inconsequential reason). How do you "care" but not like him? How is it that you want but don't want at the same time? I don't get it.
For anyone who is dating. Don't mistake appetite for other things in life - food, luxury, excitement or whatever for appetite for sex. When we were dating I realize that I always kind of associated people who were actively engaged in life, who had active appetites for other things with having an active sexual appetite. Not necessarily so.
RJ,
Sounds like a great show. We don't have HBO (crazy, I know).
Yes - you got what the "backing off" was supposed to accomplish. I don't know if H will see a ST and I can't seem to even get him alone with both of our eyes open to talk about it. Our life is so ridiculously overloaded and whatever time we aren't shuttling kids or relatives or whatever has a baby hooked to my breast or sleeping on my chest. I could just cry.
Oh yes - Our "vacation" where we might try to talk - we have three other couples with us, eight children between them and my parents going too. We plan on taking a day to go out and do stuff as a nuclear family alone but H has invited the universe so there will be no "us" time. I will wake at 6am with the baby everyday, fall into an exhausted heap with the baby by 12:00am every night and H will stay up until the wee hours of the morning playing pool with the guys then sleep until noon. This is why we won't "talk" on this vacation. That and the fact that a big throw down that ends us up in separate rooms for the night is a little embarrassing with my parents there.
I don't have HBO, so can you tell me, is at least one of these couples the normal HD man with LD woman, and if so, what are they doing to FIX the problem, and more importantly, is her desire level REALLY changing.
Cemar, Besides the couple I mentioned, there's a couple who is having fertility problems, and an unmarried couple using sex to fix their relationship problems, only to backfire ( apparently the woman uses sex compulsively to fill a void).
Dom What is a bigger issue, is "what would make him CARE, that his wife is being neglected ,and actually DO something about it?" Him deciding to take care of his wife, has nothing to do with whether or not he personally feels horney or not. I am with you 100% on that idea, except there is an ED issue and other hang ups that are in the mix.
I don't have HBO. I dohave Stars, Encore, an on demand movie channel, and a DVR.
Dom, Eddie made a very good point. A woman can go ahead with sex (intercourse) whether or not she feels horny. A guy can do oral on her, but obviously, cannot fcuk if he is not feeling horny. And don't forget that mr karen has experienced a few episodes of ED. I agree with fearless that you are not getting the Total Picture. You have good ideas... can you bring your Idea Machine to bear, keeping in mind karen's COMPLETE story?
