Divorcebusting.com Forums Divorcebusting.com Archives For Newcomers Archives muddled and angry: Puddle's third thread

Morning Puddle,



I don't know if you've had a chance to look over the Homer stuff, there's a part about the harm "honesty" can do to your relationship. I tend to agree with him, in that honesty is sometimes unnecessary & creates problems unnecessarily.

This kinda goes along with what the DB coach told you about not having to agree (I think it's a mistake to disagree, although there are ways to validate & not really agree, if it's important to you). In my mind, your H already knows what you think & is focused on fighting you until you agree. If you continue along that path, it'll be more of the same.
Taking the different attitude as expressed in your e-mail will have a different effect & put the responsibility in his hands.

Have a great time at camp this weekend. The less said the easier & better, IMO.
This is where you "fake it til you make it" comes in. After a while, it'll become second nature (we hope, always difficult to put theory into action at first).
I stumbled around a bit last night, although, all-in-all, I held my focus.

Make it a great weekend,

Sunny

Wishing you a wonderful trip, let us know all about it!


And I think the big picture is that you really need to let go, stop concentrating on blaming H or hoping he will see the light, and really start focusing on you, and you and your R with God (if your a believer).

I know you say that you would choose the "do the right thing" path, and why can't H... but perhaps that's what he's been doing for weeks, or months, or years? I do not believe that he M you just because he thought it was the "right" thing to do, but at some point he continued the M because it was. Now he is in a position where doing the "right" thing has caused him turmoil. (not that YOU caused it, he caused it too) That's what he needs to realize.

That you both choose your happiness and that it doesn't come from the other person. You cannot rely on the other person to make you happy.

I'm also curious, if you can, how is your mood while your in his presence? What are you doing when he's around or is able to "see" you? I ask because you want him to SEE that you are happy, SEE that he is going to be leaving a great W, SEE that his actions do not dictate your feelings, and SEE that you really HAVE changed.

I remember during my H's transition, one evening after him coming home from work, my s3 and I were dancing to music playing kinda loudly in the living room and we yelled out, HI DADDY! to him. A year prior, you would have found me cleaning or yelling at the kids and being bitter about it. I probably would have waiting for him to say Hi to me. Usually his mood would be grumpy, so by me not saying Hi and being in a poor mood myself, I just made things worse. Could it be possible that he would have loved for me to come over to him and greet him warmly? So many little things like that made me think, wow. I probably caused half the problem for his grumpiness and irritability, which in turn made me bitter and angry. How sad, the webs we weave entangle us so.

I'm not sure if I've said this to you or not, I think I have, but you really have to look at yourself and say, am I a person I want to love and be with? If you can't honestly say that, how can H? So even though the whole GALing thing might be a fake thing to begin with, as we really delve into it, it does really become us, and it really makes us start appreciating ourselves more and respecting ourselves. This is when the WAS starts getting confused. Of course there are some that they just can't get over their own hurdles. But we can't make them climb out of their own holes. But we do know that we WILL be better and be better people after it is all said and done, as someone just previously mentioned.

Hey everyone!

Back from camping today, and here's a brief rundown of the highlights:

Night 2: H shows up around midnight, while I'm trying to comfort 4-year-old who's screaming. Child finally calms down, we're all bedded down and quiet. Child sits up and tosses cookies (literally---handfuls of them for dessert) all over self, sleeping bag, my sleeping bag, and the mattress pads.

H says, "Where are the towels?" I direct him to my bag and he pulls them out ... along with my copy of Homer---big fat "Stop Your Divorce!"---which falls face up on the floor of the tent.

H takes sleeping bags, etc, into the shower and cleans them; I clean up child. Child and I snuggle into H's bag, H says he's sleeping in the car.

Next day H is sicker than ever (he's had something for a while) and spends the next couple days alternately sleeping and playing with the kids (far away from me). When I ask how he's feeling he responds with things like, "The same. I'm not complaining" and "Achy and feverish."

Our conversations are limited to H complaining about work (and me listening, asking questions) and listing camping supplies "we" need to get.

H is again not wearing his ring.

H stays on his own, away from the group (there were about 70 of us), for the most part, which is typical.

H stays away from my sister, who wants to string him up and can't speak a civil sentence to him.

H doesn't mention my email, there is no R talk.

I had a great time. I organized this trip and felt very confident about myself, talked to a lot of people.

Re how I'm acting around H: I'm feeling very much like I've let go of the fear of letting go. H is done, and I'm seeing so much of his unpleasant side that it's relatively easy to NOT want the M to work. Not sure if this is "detachment," giving up, or not really caring too much anymore (at the moment).

The one potentially negative thing I see here is that I don't feel like I have to be cheery and upbeat all the time around him. I certainly censor what I share with him (re negative feelings about anything) and I don't get angry or anything, but I don't prance around the house all the time. I'm still going out and doing a lot, but it really is for me, and heck, I'm just not up all the time.

...Muuuuch later. H came out and wanted to have an R talk mid-post. Points:

- H says at least four times "I don't want to be married to you." Says this is his starting point, this feeling he has that he can't shake, is unwavering in his conviction.

- When I ask how he explains that feeling to himself, he says there are different types of people, and H, the king of analogies, says a cat person can't become a dog person. Again mentions the fact that I have a "big ball of fear" that affects my reactions to situations. He just doesn't want to be married to my type anymore. I'm wonderful and he can't criticize me, so I shouldn't feel that any of this reflects badly on me. Thanks.

- Re my talk about how I was angry with him, asks me whether I'm angry because I love him deeply, he's my soul mate, and he's leaving or because he's messing up my idea of what my life would look like; says it sounds like the latter.

I say I feel a deep bond with him that's grown over time, that's based on love and respect, I value the commitment that I made to him and he to me, and that I'm sad that that foundation is gone. He says it's not gone for him, though it may be for me, and that he appreciated my use of the word "bond" instead of "connection," because "it's more fitting." I grind my teeth. Vow to never again use the word connection.

- Asks how I see him and what he's doing, what I think's going on. I said I think he's unhappy. He says he's not unhappy, wasn't unhappy in our M, but will be unhappy if he stays in this R. Not sure he'll find happiness, it's scary going out and being alone, but it's what he feels he needs to do.

- Says re him hurting the kids, it's better for them to have a happy papa than an unhappy one. Acknowledges I might see that as selfishness. I wondered if he feels like he's protecting them, in a way, and he says he wouldn't go that far.

- Re the kids, says since we trade off nights and weekend days anyway (which we often do), it's not like their schedule will be too different. If we present his apartment as a "second place," and he comes over in the mornings and evenings to see them, he thinks they shouldn't feel too much impact. We haven't been fighting and screaming at each other, which is where "the real damage begins."

I think "You are utterly deluded as to the effect this will have on them, you *#@$&*#," but bite my tongue. I also think, "So they'll get to deal with papa leaving a happy marriage. Yeah, that'll be much easier to swallow." Don't say that either.

I tell him that despite the scheduling impact, I'm very concerned that they will feel this separation deeply, tell him I've read some stuff, I'm worried that the kids will always carry these effects, that they'll fundamentally question who they are, what their family is, etc. I say this all VERY calmly (but not if-I-had-a-gun-right-now-you'd-be-in-trouble calmly) and unemotionally, very matter of fact.

- H says since I said if he were to bring women here I wouldn't be comfortable with him staying, that we can present it as a mutual decision. Says he feels awkward being out late, feels like he's sneaking into his parents house, wouldn't want to have friends over. I say he's been clear with me, is an adult, and I'm not uncomfortable with his late hours, friends over, etc. Ask him again why he thinks he's uncomfortable, he can't answer. Says, "I guess moving out is my fault then, and I'll get the blame." I say, "I'm not talking about blame." He says when they ask why papa's living somewhere else, I might say "Because he wants to." I tell them I wouldn't say that to them, though perhaps when they're much older if they want to discuss it, I'll be truthful with them.

He says he has to lay down.

First off, I'm proud of myself for biting my tongue so, so many times. I shared my concerns about the kids calmly, briefly, and nonjudgmentally. I didn't ask him to please, please stop coming back to my early statements that we could work on it and explaining why that's impossible after I've responded each time since then with the fact that I understand that that won't work. I didn't confirm any of his leading statements like "You might see this as selfishness" or "You may disagree" even though I would've liked to. I didn't get angry or impatient. I didn't argue. I didn't reach across the table and slap him and my head didn't spin around.

I did think, "You're off to find yourself." I did think I am so very disappointed.

Okay, there must be a word limit here somewhere, and I'm probably close. Feedback? 2x4s? Probing questions? Where am I?

Thanks everyone.

A couple of brief additions, since I just didn't write enough last time...

H said he notices the changes I'm making, "little things," and he's happy to see them, but they don't touch him. I said, "I know." Thought about adding, "They're for me," but decided he's heard that before.

H has always been the packer in the family, especially for camping trips. This was my third camping trip in two weeks, and I can put up the tent by myself now and pack the car like a pro. He packed it today, but I moved some things around. He said, "Look at you!" I told him I wanted to be able to close the cover on the trunk part and he said, "You did that on the way out?"

I've always let him do that kind of stuff, stuff I don't really like doing. Doing it myself is giving my self-confidence a disproportionate boost. I'm also learning how to use my new camera and upload pics. Feels really good.

Last: The first night of the camping trip (when H wasn't there) I had a dream that we were back together, we ML and it was great. Then the next day (in the dream) he was his usual grumpy, discontent self and I thought, "It'll always be this way."

Hmmm.

{{{{{{{Puddle}}}}}}

That had to be tough, but you handled it well -- though the Homer book falling out of your bag with a plop, face up in front of your H sounds like a definate Lifetime movie moment.

No words of wisdom, but a couple of things strike me:
1. You sound dispassionate (or or your way there) about H at the moment. Very close to detachment, even lovingly. From what I remember of your postings from 2 months ago, HUGE change.
2. He's making it very easy for you to detach.
3. Your H's connection sounds like my W's spark. God, I hate both words in the context of a R at the moment (while acknowledging that you need a bit of one/both of them at some point).
4. Did he agree that you two have a bond?
5. What is this man looking for? People change throughout life, but he sounds lost.
6. All of his "I don't want to be married to you". Feh, we've all heard it before. Hurts to hear, but we know it already don't we? Comes to mind that LBSs aren't the only ones who repeat themselves.
7. From experience, your H is deluding himself about the impact on your kids. Haven't had the energy to post anything on my own thread (not much going on anyway), but my youngest hides from me when I go to pick the girls up. We did the "our" place apartment and all. Wait until he gets that sort of reaction and he'll begin to realize what he's really doing. I'll warn you, watching your kids in pain will/can kill your detachment.
8. Great job on not pushing your points, staying calm, having a good time despite the lurker H, and, while being a chick, having the spacial ability to pack a car!
9. None of this is about you. This entire situation is about him. But good for you on making yourself a better person.
10. No need to be happy all of the time. Have only met a real-life Pollyanna once and wanted to strangle her on occassion.

BD

Puddle,

BD there covered alot of what I was thinking. I just wanted to add that I think that your holding your ground _and_ your tounge in your interaction with your H was fantastic. Very respectful and very resolute. Well done.

Hey MMan!

Thanks for your words. I'm feeling pretty good about all that stuff. You'll get there, too.

Hey Heim!



Oh yeah. I'm sure it's hard to believe I'm "letting go" when he sees things like that. Hey, who'd play me?



Yes, it is a huge change (2 months, MMan!), and H is having a hard time buying it. I just got an email from him re last night's convo, which he called "disappointingly sterile," said I am not honest about my feelings "your anger dissipated that quickly?" and don't share feelings "(conversation completely devoid of emotions)."

I'm apparently coming off as some kind of robot, which wasn't my intention. I think a lot of that has to do with H's expectations, which may involve screaming and crying, and I've asked him about that. We'll see what he says.



Yes, said it's the same for him. In a slight misinterpretation of what I said, he wrote "You say your basis (bond friendship respect) is gone; I can work with that. My motivation comes from just that bond."

I clarified (just now) that the foundation of that bond for me was the fact that we were partners, just for each other, and that being gone makes me sad and changes things for me.



Last night I was feeling sad as I listened to him, thinking he sounds so lost. He says he doesn't feel like he needs to leave to be happy, but that he'd be unhappy if he stayed. He doesn't believe happiness is out there waiting for him. It's more like he's fleeing unhappiness than running to happiness, if that makes any sense. And as I listened to him I thought, he's going out there all by himself, he's going to be lonely, and he may regret it; regardless he's willing to throw away so very much, and I felt bad for him.



I wanted to say, "You don't want to be married to me. I get it. Could you please stop repeating that?" I wonder if he thinks I'm thick.



I'm going to be on the lookout for this, thanks. Not looking forward to it.



Yes! I am a chick who can pack a car. Should I put that in my dating profile?

So in this email I just got, H says he's going to tell his father (who's flying in today), which is another turnaround. He says he'll swear him to secrecy, and I told him I think it's unfair for him to ask father not to tell wife (also visiting), but I'll leave it up to him. Schmuck.

He says he wants to move out around the end of the month and talk finances. I said oky-doky.

He says I can't be done with the M if I want him to stay in the house. I clarified that I don't "want" him to stay, but rather that it's okay with me if he does and okay if he wants to leave. Not sure this will make any difference in how he reads it, but felt like I wanted to clarify that. And I repeated "I understand and accept that M is over." Ugh.

I responded to his email immediately and from the hip, since part of what he's reacting to is my lack of emotion. Last night he said that email I sent the other day (which you all helped me draft) said it sounded like I'd edited it to death. Hopefully this will sound more like me.

I'm feeling less like I care, but I'd also like to be feeling a bit more of that legendary inner strength and sublime peace I keep hearing about. I feel strong, pretty proud of myself, and tired of all this. So tired.

So the ILs are arriving today. It's always nice (and stressful) to see them, and we're all going away together for five days. Lordy, I'll need strength.

Thanks for your thoughts. The feedback helps a ton!
Take care.

Hello Puddle!!!!



Did he say anything? Nothing you can do about it. Laugh it off and let it go.



Your H strikes me as childish and immature. Does that sound right? Also, very largely self absorbed/interested.



Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.



Are you wearing yours? I've stopped wearing mine and I find it liberating. I don't feel M'd at all. W has had no commitment to me since Jan. when she declared she could no longer work on this M, and I have given up working in the marriage in the past few months too, so I don't see why I ought to wear it.



Again, what a great guy. Sheesh. What are his positive qualities again?



Excellent.



Even more excellent! Good for you girl!



Also excellent, in my opinion.



Yeah, I had this too. This got better when I finally let go of much of my anger (largely after two weeks of getting it off my chance, which probably is not good for any chance of saving the M, but oh well, it happened). The other thing that has helped with this is I have been thinking of my W as someone I would like to be friends with. I have tried to view her like my other close female friends. And when I think of her sitch, I try to think of it with someone else (not me), and I actually feel sorry for her. Weird, huh? Makes it easier to be nice to her almost all of the time.



Too bad.



Wonder why he keeps telling you. Is he trying to convince you or himself?



If I were you, I'd stop asking questions. Just agree.



Huh? Whatever. Just agree. "You're right H. I wouldn't want to be married to me either. This is impossible. It will never work. Smile"



"I underdstand. You're right. I wouldn't either."



though he just did . . .



Just nod. Boy, it would be great if he would focus more on himself and less on you. He really is controlling, isn't he. He absolutely wants to control you through all of this.



Next time, I'd say I'm not angry. I have accepted that this M is over. You're right. It will never work. It's impossible. And I'm fine and moving on too.



Does he always disagree with everything you say? Isn't that frustrating? I am frustrated just reading those sentences.

Hey, come to think of it, that must be how the WAS spouse feels when we disagree with them.



Sounds like you engaged in the R talk too much to me? Do you think so now?



Actually, this makles some sense to me. Is it really utterly delusional to you? I mean it will have an effect no doubt. Damage will be done. But they're not doomed at all.



You have a happy marriage?????



No matter how you said it, it was pressure/guilt, etc. I happen to agree with you, but there is no way H sees that like you and me. So, why did you say it? What was your goal?



Not sure this is the basis, but there probably is a way for you to get comfortable with telling your kids "we decided." I don't think H needs to know what your basis is necessarily.



This is the kind of stuff that makes me think you engaged too much in the R talk.



I think his concern about his kids blaming him is very legit. I don't think that will be good for the kids.

BTW, it is excellent he wants to be so involved with the kids still. Many WASs don't.



You should be. You done good.



This is excellent. Ignore the last clause.



Yay you!



You're detaching.



Who cares what he believes. That's his problem. Focus on you. Sounds like you are to a larger extent.



He wants so badly to control him. Try not to worry about this. Just focus on you.



Stop fueling the R talk. Just tell him you're fine and moving on. These are the cards life has dealt you, and you will be fine.



You're a glutton for this R talk, aren't you?



He is lost. Focus on you.



Uh, only if you want to attract men.



Yes, he's a schmuck. If you really left it up to him you wouldn't have said that. Let him be. He says he doesn't want to be married. Just listen, validate/agree, etc. Stop offering solutions. Stop offering opinions, views, thoughts. Stop asking questions. Focus on you and your kids.



Excellent!



Man, something tells me if you went full Homer, he'd freak out. Just a hunch.



Ok. Not bad. It's going to take a while to sink in. Hint: The more you really feel it, the more he'll really believe. They can often (usually) see through the facades.



Who cares what it sounds like to him? Focus on you, what you want, etc. You don't owe him anything. His whole m.o. here is to get you to give him what he wants. Example: He says your emails don't have enough emotion for me. Then you try to send him a more emotional email. Is that focusing on you? Detach more!



You are strong. And you are detaching.

Take care Puddle. Hope it helps.

Nomo

Thanks, Nomo, for that very honest, direct, and thorough response! It helps a ton. In fact, I haven't responded to H's latest email since I read your post, in which he asks for more clarification about where I am (in a way that provokes me very effectively to want to respond). I need to sit with it a while. And he's asking for input about where he is, which is weird. But more about that later tonight, when the littles are asleep.

I'm about to go have dinner with the ILs, but one brief thing here. One thing I realized is that the basis for my love for H was the fact that he loved me. Now that he doesn't (in the same way), all that's left for me is his grumpy self and my wish that the kids didn't have to go through this. That's not a lot to work alone to save an M on, is it?

More later. Thanks, everyone.

Hey Nomo!



Just in the new email today, H mentioned he thinks I'm still hanging on, especially when he sees things like that. I said I hadn't read the book yet, because I hadn't wanted to or felt the need. Not quite laughing it off...



Funny, I've never thought of him as childish and immature before, but some lately. Self-absorbed, yes, especially lately.



Yes, I'm still wearing mine. Haven't really considered taking it off yet, but that's coming. Had a moment of levity with H today when I walked in the bathroom and found him struggling with soap trying to get his ring back on before work. I just laughed.



Ironically, I've always considered his self-reflection positive, and he's the least defensive person I know (except lately, though still less than most people). But of the things that matter to me, he doesn't have many of those qualities lately. And I have been saddened by my realization that the biggest element in my love for H was always that he loved me. Doesn't say a whole lot for me, but I think it's true.



Not weird at all. This makes sense to me, and I'll try it out, thanks.



I honestly think he's trying to convince me. I think he still doesn't believe I get it, really get it.



I'd never asked him before how he explains any of this. I don't understand it any better now, and I won't ask again, but I wanted to hear what he thinks.



Hee hee. I've been thinking about a possible conversation in the future, where H and I sit down with his folks to discuss this. (This probably won't happen, by the way.) I was imagining what would happen if his parents freak out and start demanding to know why he'd do this, and I jump in playing the devil's advocate: "He'd be unhappy if he stayed, can't you see that? What else can he do???? It's the only option!" I think it'd be quite funny.



Funny! I've actually stopped responding to this, though your response is much better than my idea: "I get it. Could we please move on now?"



Yes. He's desperately trying to get me to understand, perhaps so I can let him off the hook, perhaps so I can explain it to him. But yes, utterly controlling. And I often take the bait.



I'm going to do this. There will be a next time, I'm sure.



He's very, very into semantics, so if I don't get *exactly* what he's saying, he'll keep explaining and arguing. Yes, it's exhausting.



I absolutely engaged. And yes, it was probably too much. I've realized as much as H is trying to get me to understand, I'm doing the same. I want him to say, "Oh, I see. You're not afraid. You do get it," etc, and I need to shut up and show him. Sure, he's skeptical, but he's not going to get it any better or faster by my insisting it's true.



I think H is minimizing the impact this will have on them, but again, it doesn't matter what I think or say. Today in my last email to him, where I was finally saying pretty directly what I think without worrying about how he responds, I said something like, "The kids will experience it however they do, and we'll deal with that." His response was, "That goes without saying," but that he hopes we'll deal *together* instead of just him (??), and that it'll take a lot of courage on my part to not blame him, or even look like I'm blaming him.

I guess I haven't said to him clearly that I won't do that, and that concern is legitimate. I'll be clear, and brief, about not blaming him to them.



No, we don't, but we've always had a calm and content marriage, which, I think, looks happy enough to the kids.



No good reason, in retrospect, like so much else I say to him...



You're probably right. This is the kind of reasoning that can lead my H, the non-defensive guy, to some insight about what he's doing. May not help. I think it lead directly to this today: "I think in part I am realizing that my decision is one I made (no team effort) and that I need to be very clear in terms of what I want and need. I have been waiting to work that out with you, but see that that's both unfair and silly." Or maybe not.



Yeah, I think this is it. In my dream, as in my waking hours, this was a sad realization.



Clearly I do still, too much. I feel like I've let go of the M and the R, but I still want to be understood. Sound like anyone we all know?



I assume you mean to control me. Funny slip.



Yes, must do this.



To be honest, now that I don't care as much about the M, it's kind of fun. We've always had great discussions about this kind of thing, analyzing, taking apart, etc. Now it's just about us, which is weird, but still interesting. So in a way, it is enjoyable. Must stop, though.



I agree. Wish I hadn't said that. My last email was very direct about what I think, and it felt good, but I should've let that one go.



This is going to be hard. I've realized in reading your post, Nomo, that H wants out of the M, but he still wants me to be his confidant. He's always been a guy who lives in his head, for the most part, but when he needs a sounding board and friend, I'm it. So he's trying to transition into the same R without the M part.

If I stop engaging with him here, it'll be the end of our R, period. I'm not sure I'm ready to go there yet. Thoughts?



Okay, now I have to read it.



Yes, I think that's true, and I'm feeling it more and more, so that should be okay.



See above re if I fail to engage here. And no, it's focusing on keeping H happy with me.

Thanks again, Nomo, this was very helpful indeed.

Now let's see what you think of this one. The email I haven't responded to includes: "I've been grumpy at home, and it's mostly b/c I am not handling work well. Or my distress over what I am doing to you doesn't stay home. I fear for you, I fear for the kids. I question where self-interest becomes selfishness. I question my motive. I am sad for this unwanted epiphany. I am sad for your grief."

None of which requires a response. Is there any response I can give that's friendly and helpful and has nothing to do with me?

He also says since he doesn't see "enough of the opposite" he assumes I'm fearful, e.g., if I weren't fearful I'd say, "Okay, let's do x and y and talk about z." I haven't done that because he's driving this train, and I'm content with the way things are (time- and money-wise, for example). I think for this one I don't need to respond at all? I want to show my lack of fear, but I don't feel like I have to say, "Okay, let's get those papers drawn up."

Re my statement that he was more forthcoming last night about his reasons/feelings about how he got here, he says "In part my misery comes from having wanted understanding, and feeling I've said what I said before." He wants to know what was different last night.

Re him not understanding what's going on with me, I said something to the effect of, look, even if you were in my skin and understood me perfectly, it wouldn't change anything, so let's move on. (Unsaid: Let's please move on. I'm so tired of talking about it.) He said "Well - I am always interested, long as you are. But am fine with moving on. I am interested b/c I want to hear all the "yeah but"s - this is not a flip decision and I am over it."

This is what I meant when I said he still wants me to be the one to mull things over with. I'm not sure I can do that acting like he's a friend talking about a sitch with someone else, but if I could, I think that would be ideal here. Any thoughts?

That's pretty much it. This is grueling.

Today the first thing my MIL said to me was, "You've lost a lot of weight. Why?" She's the most direct person I know, and it's stressful thinking about having a conversation with her and FIL. H still hasn't decided about it. Ugh.

Thanks, all. Take care.