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frank_d,
One thing I was thinking about after reading that earlier is, one of our biggest fights has been her emotional entanglement with a friend. Hours a day on the phone, when she goes out it's with this friend, that kind of thing. I kept telling her that if she would just give me half of that energy, maybe we could reconcile. Obviously, I have stopped that.

Now, W will be on the phone with this friend for an hour before bed. Then she will get in bed with me and we will catch up on TIVO. She will have absolutely nothing to say. Driving places, nothing to say. Hanging out, nothing to say. Granted, she is a quiet person and she has made the point that during these phone conversations, she really doesn't do a lot of talking, just listens to her friend.

Should I leave it alone? The conversations I do hear her having with her friends are usually girlfriend type stuff anyway, I just wish she would open up to me about other stuff. You know the emotional intimacy type thing.

Just don't know how to get there from here right now, if at all.

Frank - thanks for posting that!

Hello Frank! Hope all is well with you and your family.

I have a question regarding some conflicting schools of thought and I believe you may have the best insight.

In the practices of DB it seems like the best thing to do when my wife begins to spew, I need to let her know that her behavior towards me is unacceptable and that if that is how she chooses to communicate with me, then I will have to leave. I need to advise her that I am more than happy to discuss the matter with her in a constructive and pleasant manner. If she cannot comply with this, then I need to politely say good bye and leave or hang up the phone. And actually, that has been working for me. On some level, she is seeing that she cannot push those buttons with me anymore and get the reaction that she expects, and perhaps wants. I believe that she is feeling her control over me by the use of words to be diminshing to the point that it isn't even worth it for her anymore to berate me, or go into a tirade. OK, so I'm feeling better about this.

However, Deida's "The Way of the Superior Man" puts forth the idea to "stay with her intensity - to a point". I quote Deida;

"When a woman gets emotioanlly intense, a mediocre man wants to calm her down and discuss it, or leave and come back later when she is "sane". A superior man penetrates her mood with imperturbable love and unwavering consciousness. If she still refuses to live more fully in love, after a time, let her go"

"Basically, most men are afraid of, or disgusted by, feminine emotions. That's why you try to fix them or escape from them. "I'll come back later when you can act like a reasonable human being", you might say".

"One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax".


OK Frank, how can both of these apply simultaneously? Do you stand you ground and let her know you will not except her "feminine emotions" or do you stand full and embrace it? Deida or Cunninham (MakingHerHappy.com) even suggest to get playful with this mood, sort of laugh or be silly through. Again, from Deida;

"The next time you notice yourself trying to fix your woman so that she will no longer __________(fill in the blank), relax and give her love by touching her and telling her that you love her when she is this way. Embrace her, or wrestle with her, or scream and yell for the heck of it, but make no effort to bring and end to that which pisses you off. Practice love instead of trying to bring and end to the quality that bothers you. You can't escape the tussle with the feminine"

The above was from the first chapter, which is "Stop Hoping for Completion of Anything in Life", which essentially says that this stuff just doesn't end, so get used to it, embrace it and don't let it get to you.

So Frank, aren't these two theories diametrically opposed to one another? The DB principles say stand up for yourself and let her know her behavior is unacceptable and must cease, while Deida is saying let it flow, embrace it, laugh it off because it isn't going to change and if you are waiting for it to, you are in for a let down.

Or, should the principle that you choose be based upon the situation? As you know, my wife is a WAW, done the "I'm not in love with you anymore" routine, is most likey full-onset MLC and we are living apart. Now if I could rewind our life a year or two, when she was in the "let's work this out" phase, should I have accepted Deida's concepts, because the woman he describes fits my wife perfectly, in my opinion?

Lots to ponder, to be sure. But thank you for turning me onto the works of Deida and Cunninham, I'm getting quite a bit out of their writings.

DNQ

Right, if she is abusing YOU, and being disrespectful of YOU. "Spew" has lot's of different forms. Your reaction to it depends on the type of 'spew'

Good. She needs to respect you. Let me say that a different way, and this is VERY important so READ it more than once. Ready?

"SHE really really has a very important need. That need is to RESPECT YOU. She WANTS to respect you because she will feel better when she does. She will feel safer, cared for and stable when she RESPECTS YOU. This is not a desire, it is a NEED"

Right now she doesn't respect you because you let her lose that respect over time. When she CAN respect you, she will start to calm down. And for course respect is earned or commanded.

There is a big difference between 'staying in her intensity / accepting her feminine emotions' and 'accepting her abuse'. If/ when she is 'spewing' about finances, her fears, her uncertainties and NOT abusing YOU personally and NOT showing YOU disrespect by framing it all as personal attacks against YOU, then you CAN 'stay in her intensity with her'.

What Deida is saying is 'smile and wave' and touch, comfort, listen - but don't FIX.

If you notice, Deida NEVER addresses the issues of 'abusiveness' because his writings are for couples who are somewhat sane, and for men who aren't dealing with MLC crazy women. It's day to day stuff.

You answered the question in the first paragraph with your statements in the second paragraph.

The theories are not 'opposing' they are 'complementary' because Deida's concepts are for dealing with pure emotion, with normal day to day interactions with a woman. DB's 'stand up for yourself' are for dealing with abusiveness.

So yes, you need to use BOTH, and know when to use them. And yes, when your W was in '"let's work this out" mode it would have been a benefit if you knew these things then. However, like me and the others here, you needed to REALLY get hammered hard in order to get the 'lesson'.

In summary: When she's spewing hurt, fear, anger abut her life and NOT blaming you for it, let her do it and say nothing (or use some of Deida's "disarming" tactics, like telling her she's beautiful when she's angry)

When she's spewing abuse at YOU, command respect. Period.

Hope this helps.

Frank, thanks so much for responding to this over on my thread (where I copied it). I really appreciate all the help and support.
DNQ

Some thoughts about our financial, self esteem and relationship issues as men that brought us to these situations we are in.


I grew up 'Dirt Poor', and I built myself up only to lose it, then build it again. The loss cycles are hard on my W, since she has never been 'poor'.

When I was single and young I lived for many months in a 'rent a room and share a bathroom' house which was mostly housing older men who were alcoholics. I was only 19 at the time.

I know what 'poor' feels like and I also know what 'well off' feels like. See, I have a God given gift of being able to solve really really hard problems, building huge and complex software systems. I can't explain to people how I figure things out. I just see the solutions and all the side problems in my head, like a vision, and I can explain what to do to build it.

I grew up in an abusive family. Factory workers with no drive to better themselves. I was the smartest one there but was always made to feel stupid. When I was around 18 I realized I had this 'knack' for solving problems and 'hid out' in University for 10 years working in the computer center as a developer. Kinda felt safe being around 'people like me'.

I stayed so long because the manager I reported to kept me 'down'. by telling me how I would never survive in the 'real world'. That worked for me, I was too afraid to leave. But eventually it got too intolerable to work for him so I did leave.

I worked for a company in Los Angeles for a couple years. Very dysfunctional owner. I invented a couple of 'neat' programming tools that they made a million or so dollars selling.

I did this for another company also. Saved projects that were going down the toilet, did other stuff to make other people wealthy.

I went on my own, with some partners and created over the years a couple good sized companies, only to be betrayed by my partners in one way or another. One was my friend who basically I had helped get his green card (he was canadian) so he could stay in the USA with his famliy, only to find out he was misusing the companies funds and the other partners believed his lies, eventually forcing ME out of the company I created.

The other company was during 'dot com'. I met a couple of Harvard Grads who were qualified (on paper anyway) to work with me to build up my already growing company into a larger, better run telecom business. They promised a lot and they believed their own BS. I took a chance and they proceeded to downsize my staff, and stop growing the company infrastructure so it could be 'profitable' - because that was all that matter in their plan.

Taking these hits to my self esteem was hard. And I lost my drive to succeed, developing cynicism about others instead.

I went through a period, where I was so unhappy and I spent money on 'toys' trying to find something to make me feel better. I never felt good about buying anything, not because my W would 'disapprove' but because I felt guilty that I wasn't really being financially prudent. It's a bad cycle to be in. Buy something, feel 'better' for a couple days, then feel guilty you bought it. Depression, then buy something else.

It doesn't work. Money is great and it buys stability and toys and fun trips. However, True love and happiness is not on the list. Trust me. I know this.

Eventually my W became WAW and you all know the rest. I figured out how to fix things, looked inside myself and took the time to learn what being a real man means. I can't tell guys enough, women are NOT like men in so many ways, yet we treat them like they are, or we shake our heads when we don't understand why they do things the way they do. Then they leave and we wonder what happened.

Right now, we are financially devastated. Probably going to lose our house to foreclosure, and have lots of debt. I wasn't able to focus on stuff last year to make money, and all the entrepreneurial projects I've been working on have not paid off for 3 years which has been very devastating.

You can't live on vapors forever. The last straw has been due to a large telecom company disputing our billing for the past 6 months to the tune of $150K to us, and a total of millions of dollars to others they are screwing with.

The bright side is that we're probably in the strongest relationship we've ever been in. The majority of W's 'past life' issues are resolved, or at least put in a perspective of understanding that they will never be 'fixed' because the other person (W's Dad, My Dad) will not change, or is dead (W's Grandfather, My Grandmother) and can't be addressed.

Even if we had to live in a small apt, as long as I have internet access and can continue my software development we'd be ok, and in love. It's been a hard road to walk the past 3 years. But the outcome in my marriage has been good.

the major message is that we must take the time to look at our own muck inside s, because eventually it comes out and messes up our relationships. What's worse, is that we married someone who was integral in that muck, they were chosen because they 'fit' into the puzzle that is our lives and fulfilled many requirements we had previously set up.

In my case, I was used to taking care of myself, and I know what it's like to be poor. When I met my W she was in need of being rescued and I was a rescuer. Perfect fit. Eventually though, the rescuer has their own problems and the W is faced with that 'empty space' being empty again except they never learned how to fill it themselves, how to be 'ok' on their own or how to be 'supportive' of their rescuer.

Now we both know what being in a marriage is all about. So we have a much better chance of surviving this cycle and making sure it is our last.

Frank, please check your email.

I spoke with an old time Db'er last night, HopefulHusband, and he said something to me that I felt was very very enlightening. His W and he will be divorced. She has gone from one loser to another while he has been forced to improve his life and protect his kids from her stupidity. Surprisingly, She comes to HIM for support or advice sometimes but really never listens. She wants what she wants and just can't help herself.

I had told him about my post regarding the WAS's or MLC'ers showing us 'who they really are' and that some of us were having trouble absorbing that because we think that the 'alien' they have become is 'not in character for them', since we haven't seen them be this way, at this extreme.

He said (I'm paraphrasing):



My W and I have spoken about this topic and she adds the following:



W also points out that it was the fact that I just let her be - I didn't judge her actions, I accepted them and was willing to let her go, that she started to realize that I did love her - unconditionally, and that she wouldn't find that kind of love anywhere else.

Also, we wouldn't have been able to be together UNTIL we finally went to counseling and talked about the REAL issues, her feelings of inadequacy in our relationship because she was so dependent on me for everything, and my annoyance that she WAS so dependent on me for everything - I wanted her to be herself, have a life, find a career that fulfilled her needs.

I felt very unsupported when the 'chips were down' and she had to realize it was ok to talk about things, instead of closing down and hoping I would 'get over it'.

This is just the tip of the iceberg, but the bottom line is this:

We brought 'ourselves' into the marriage. Some of it we kept suppressed, but in the end it had to come out and be addressed one way or he other. So, the people we are during the MLC or while being a WAS are REALLY who we are. It's what we DO with that knowledge that makes the difference in how the FUTURE 'us' will evolve.

As the LBS, we can do the most good by accepting that this is who the WAS REALLY is. If the situation is extreme, we do have to protect ourselves, our kids and our financial situations.

However, the longer we show the unconditional acceptance of who they are, without allowing them to abuse us of course, the higher the probability that they will eventually see for themselves that they CAN have a better, calmer life in a stronger, more open relationship. That their old 'self' just doesn't have to be 'who they are' any more. They can be free of that pain.

For some, that awakening may come too late to save the marriage. Yet, because of who many of us are on this board, because we will always show the acceptance and understanding when possible, they will be continuously getting that feedback from us, and it will be what eventually turns them around and provides an awakening.

Maybe they will be with us, maybe not. Either way WE will be doing the right thing.

Frank,

Per usual - freaking brilliant...

I was sharing a similar thought process with some friends via e-mail - however you took it a step further.

As a testamonial, I was just talking with W and she was reliving how depressed and smothered she felt just before the bomb. She then went into how great she feels right now - loved unconditionally - and that in part due to how she can be more of herself and that *I* lead, am not a wuss. As an aside, she had been in a terrible mood the past day or so - due to stress in her business life and was trying to put it on me - I respectfully listened but wouldn't accept that gift in fact. I was supportive of the business issue but indicated that I'm not a punching bag. Furthermore, *I* see how I would have taken that MUCH more personally in the past, retreated and been resentful. Not today. So my path as the LBS has changed.

Anyway, freakin' great stuff. You rawk!

Sven

Sven,

You are a great H! I think all women want a man to be a leader, even the strong ones (like me). I hated that my H refused to take a leadership role in our M, and it was one of the things that caused me to completely lose respect for him.

All you guys give me hope that I will one day have the M I really want. Most probably not with H, though, unless God performs a miracle.

But that's okay - He has someone better in store for me.

~ Nicola