Chrome, I'm not talking about making your problems hers, or asking her to solve anything. It is just about sharing your feelings to let her know where your mind is at. e.g., I'm disappointed with myself for withdrawing from the R. I know I am doing it, but I can't seem to help myself. Just your feelings Chrome, stated in a loving way and carefully to not place any blame.
I understand that sentiment GGB, and I truly have tried to make such statements. I may not have succeeded though. The problem has been on a number of occasions that despite me attempting to carefully craft a non-blaming statement, she still gets defensive about it, and then I'll usually say something like "YOU are the one who is making this an attack on you." And then she stop listening.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Have you thought much about where your rage comes from and possibly what the real emotion behind it might be?
Yes, I have some thoughts. My rage stems primarily from being taken advantage of by many people over the years and from physical/emotional abuse from my parents. The rage is amplified by the knowledge that is it my fault people took advantage of me, i.e. I let them do it. Granted, a lot of that is "Nice Guy" syndrome, making covert contracts and all. And I'm pissed at myself for that too. The real emotion is probably fear. I am afraid that I will always be stuck in my current mode.
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I told her that you how you would rage (inwardly compared with him but still rage) when your kids cried with colic. One guess I have is that it is the feeling of NOT being able to do something that creates this feeling of rage in men?? So the feeling of helplessness becomes rage?? Total guess!!
That is spot on. My children were "hurting" and I couldn't do anything about it. A friend of mine once told me right before my first children were born that something changes inside you when they are born. He said that for him it was that before his kids were born, he would have thought twice about actually killing someone ... afterwards, there was no hesitation in his mind. I think many men, including myself, have this internal dialogue that says "I will sacrifice everything for my children to keep them from harm", and yet we are presented with situations like a crying child that we can't solve by brute strength. It definitely leads to rage.
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Also, as far as sharing your feelings with your wife, how do you do this – when, what do you say, etc.? The two of you need to develop a way of sharing feelings that feels safe for both of you. The idea of trust is key and I think a lot of it can start with you. Once you feel like you trust yourself to be able to get through all of this, then she can feel more comfortable hearing your problems because she can sense you trust in yourself? Does that make sense?
It makes a lot of sense. I know I am very bad at sharing my feelings. When the convo starts, the emotions inside me trump my prepared statements and I end up going off on tangents. I'm sure our talks confuse her more than anything else. And you are right I don't have a lot of self-trust, which must be disconcerting to her. How do I gain self-trust in the midst of constantly fecking up?
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What I remember from Chrome is that his wife is actually extra sensitive to his moods because of some past issues they had. She didn't even like hearing that he was going to individual counseling for himself.
Yes that is still true.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I don't think he should withhold any of his feelings on account of her reactions at all. Be careful how he states them, perhaps. Withhold or sugar-coat, no. His feelings are what they are, not something he's consciously manufactured. The way she handles his feelings is not his responsibility, it is her problem to deal with. As long as he is withholding those feelings, there is going to be a level of mistrust and the relationship isn't going to move forward. By putting his feelings out there, in a loving way mind you, and not rescuing her from them he forces her into growing as well.
My C said pretty much the same thing, although he did caution that "what we say to ourselves should be in some situaitons different than what we say to others." He did try to get me to express my rage to him, but I couldn't. He said I needed a safe place to express it, but I just couldn't let myself lose control, even a little bit. I did mention a few things to him about my anger, and he said a lot of that seems to stem from the feeling that I have that my W doesn't "see me."
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
As long as Chrome holds onto this anger, he keeps himself boxed in a catch 22 with no way out. Express the anger and her fears his wife will withdraw more or leave. Hold in the anger to save the marriage and he has to wrestle with his internal demons.
So Chrome, when are you going to have some heart to heart talks with your dad?
That is a pretty good synopsis of how I feel Cobra.
I am not sure how a heart to heart talk with my father will help. In what way do you think it will?
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
What are you angry about? How are you going to express it?
Angry at feeling being taken advantage of. I feel like she knows that I won't D her over the lack of affection, and so she dismisses my feelings. I feel like she knows that I won't seriously set a hard boundary on her parents, so she disregards me. I feel like she knows I want to do fun things with her, so she spends all our money on stuff for the kids so that there is no money left for vacations.
And then I feel stupid for thinking such silly things, and it makes me even more angry.
I don't know how to express it.
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What are you entiteled to?
A W that wants to try to make a good M, that cares about us, wants us to be happy together.
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Dont worry about your W getting her shtuff together. Thats her job. Work on yours. Thats a big enuff job to handle. Its not going to wreck your M. Thats why you said...for better or for worse...at least that was why I did.
But the problem is my W is "building reasons" in her head not to be intimate with me as she watches me struggle with myself. I know she won't D me, but I fear a life of "quiet separation" more than I do D.
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An individual, cant wreck a marriage, you can only have people who quit.
Thats one thing I fear, her quitting on us even if I am able to get my sh!t together because she can see my struggles.
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Why dont you let her beat you up when you slip, instead of beating on yourself?
But she won't, not overtly. She will just withdraw.
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You cant implement a boundary if you dont believe you are worthy of it.
Yeah, don't I know it.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
It is very difficult for me to believe that your wife could possibly be more “healthy” than you are. We understand what you went through as a kid and how it has affected you to this day, but I think your W has the same level of issues to deal with, even though they may be different. What makes it hard for her to see is that she is still so close to them. The enmeshment continues, so she can’t see she is enmeshed.
What I’m trying to say is that you need sympathy and validation from her. You get upset when she doesn’t give it. She needs the same from you and shuts down when she doesn’t get it. Neither of you really have the capacity to give that sympathy to each other in a selfless fashion because you each need that same compassion yourselves.
So you getting upset that she will not meet your needs is a dead end, IMO. She doesn’t have it in her to give at this point in time, and frankly, neither do you. I think it’s a cheeseless tunnel. If it weren’t, you’d be seeing some improvements, but things keep falling back to the old patterns. Yes you both need to express your feelings, but expecting validation from that sharing seems a bit of a stretch right now.
I remember feeling rage a few times when my first child was born. She would get “colicky” (whatever that is) and I could not get her to stop crying. That triggered anxiety and helplessness in me, plus it angered me that only my wife could sooth the baby and not me. It was an invalidation coupled with no control over being able to fix it. Bad combination of ingredients.
So maybe something that could help is for you to find a way to express your anger, to let out your frustrations, to feel and experience your own power, to get back some control, but in a safe way. This is one of the reasons I have my kids in TKD. Now that we have reached the upper belt levels, I hope my kids will realize they have considerable power to hurt others, that they can take care of themselves against aggressors, and therefore do not need to use force they have trained so long to use. The more you train to use power, the less chance you will actually use it. That is confidence, and confidence crowds out anxiety and insecurity, and therefore rage.
Combine that with working things out with your dad and you might be able to find a new level of inner strength and peace that can then transfer into you giving your wife some of the validation she needs. Then she might be able to return some of that to you. This is a longer term plan, but it still might be good to work towards it.
Just saw your response….
I am not sure how a heart to heart talk with my father will help. In what way do you think it will?
IMO, your anger originates from the abuse you took from your dad. It might feel good to work him over like he did you, but we know that isn’t good. Its one thing to say you are going to forgive someone and tell yourself that you should feel better, but its another thing to really feel it. What you REALLY need is a deep, sincere, heartfelt apology from HIM. But from what you’ve said, you’re not likely to get it from him. My guess is that he abused you because he was abused himself. He was raging for some reason and took it out on you. He was hurt and looking for soothing but had no idea what was going on. You know.
My recommendation in talking to you dad is for you only, but for you to get what I think you need, you may have to give him some soothing first. Ask him about his background, what he endured at the hand of his father. Then offer him comfort. Give him validation to make him feel whole. Unless he continues in denial (which he will for a while), the connection to what he did to you will be hard to ignore. Then you can come to peace and I think a lot of your anger can evaporate.
If you cannot do this with him in person, I think you still need to find a way to forgive him on your own to heal yourself. However, I think that is hard to do. Don’t be afraid. Go talk to him. Do it for your kids. Break the generational cycle.
And I'm pissed at myself for that too. The real emotion is probably fear.
I wish I understood this more to help. If my friend's H does anything (which he probably won't), I'll pass it along. I'm sure our talks confuse her more than anything else. And you are right I don't have a lot of self-trust, which must be disconcerting to her.
I'm not all that concerned about her confusion or feeling disconcerted. Her issues are just a side effect of an important issue for you - self-trust/self confidence. Focus on yourself right now and "trust" that any progress you make will eventually be reflected by your wife.
A friend of mine is seeing a great therapist who uses Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) and he has been very helpful for her. I saw him twice and wish I could see him regularly too. I mention it because it seems like your issues might be able to be handled with CBT.
Out of curiosity, if you didn't change at all and suddenly your wife started acting "perfectly," would you really feel okay about your marriage? I ask this to point out that you probably want to have self-trust and self confidence for yourself so that's why it's good to focus on getting that first - because it will give you REAL and PERMANENT results and it's something you are in control of. Relying on a wife who has her own issues to help you is probably not the best route to take.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Out of curiosity, if you didn't change at all and suddenly your wife started acting "perfectly," would you really feel okay about your marriage? I ask this to point out that you probably want to have self-trust and self confidence for yourself so that's why it's good to focus on getting that first - because it will give you REAL and PERMANENT results and it's something you are in control of. Relying on a wife who has her own issues to help you is probably not the best route to take.
“Emotionally Focused Couple Therapy with Trauma Survivors; Strengthening Attachment Bonds” by Susan Johnson says this is not necessarily so. See this post I made, particularly the 5th point:
What may be expected to resolve conflict and foster relationship satisfaction then is not so much new insights or new contracts about pragmatic issues, but the emotional attunement and responsiveness that make for a more secure bond. (p. 47)
