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Lissett & Angelica,
I feel blessed that you could post. Much appreciated.

You are right, I cannot trust my W to make the right decision. She is in La La Land. Its especially hard to see this in an email from her who went to school for social work!

"While I do respect, and take into consideration your opinion regarding decisions on how to parent the kids, you must understand that by no means, am I required to follow your set of rules or standards as far as what is best for the kids or how I should live my life when the kids are in my care."

What you come to realize in going through these sitchs that are so personal is that the legal system turns such a blind eye to immoral judgement and infidelity, that its purly shocking! Yes, I am worried about my DD's physical security, but I am more worried about the lessons we are teaching them about life and love in general. what a shame!

Its all ok. where I come from, they believe in karma and I sure hope all these will be turned around someday for my W to wake up and see the light. In the meantime I am making a firm decision to move forward with my life and take the action necessary to protect my kids as best as I can.

Thanks for all your prayers.

[quote=mile_high_PMA]Thanks a lot, Kim.

Mile High~ This is something I set up a firm boundry with,,my H knows that I will not put up w/my kids being left w/someone Idon't know & am comfortable w/watching OURchildren. Sheesh,,I don't know how he thinks he can get away w/that, that takes some balls(pardon me)! There is some real action you could take here. Sit down w/W and discuss what you heard coming from D's mouth and tell her that you are concerned who taught her that. Go on to say, you don't agree w/it, you don't think a child this young should know or worry about these things and that you will be following up w/teachers, daycare providers, etc. to let them know its' not appropriate. Remember not to be accusatory to W, just let her know what you're doing on your part. Again, don't close your eyes and use your gut feeling here,,most of the time its' right. I agree 100%,,I think in a lot of cultures its' wrong, especially this scenerio!

Hope that helps, good luck,
Kim

Mile High:

I've been away for a while, so I'm now getting caught up. So sorry to hear about your situation. I don't have kids and am not at the point of D (we're still separated, and she isn't saying anything about what she wants), so I feel kind of helpless. All I can say is you are doing the right thing in protecting the kids. It hurts, but it's the right thing to do. Keep at it; we're here for you. Things won't get better right away; they may even get worse in the near term, but in the long run I am convinced you will be happier. You strike me as a guy who's getting on with his life in a positive direction, one day at a time. Keep working on yourself; be the best you can be, and you will attract true love. That's all any of us can do.

Hey Bruce!
Good to hear from you buddy. How was your retreat? We are all anxious to hear about it.




Thanks for all the kind words and wisdom. Its always a treat to come visit this forum and get the inspiration I need for taking the next step.

Mile High:

The retreat was wonderful. So affirming. It's easy, and necessary, to look at our personal failings, but the retreat was uplifting. Felt great to be around warm, intimate people given WAW and I don't see each other much or even talk on the phone much. I'm really learning about non-verbal communication, and how critical it is to healthy relationships. I had been too much a bookish, rational person for too long, and I'm working on changing that. It feels great--a whole new way to look at life.
Keep working on yourself, mile high, and protect the kids! You are courageous and heroic for doing those two things.


WAW came up to me at a store two nights ago and said hello and made some small talk about a trip I took last weekend to visit my parents. She initiated the contact; I hadn't seen her. I hadn't been to my parents' house in years (I had seen them elsewhere, however) and it felt great to connect with them and other relatives. WAW said she was glad to hear I went. I called her the other night after she left me a message about missing keys. Unlike in the past, this time she seemed to want to talk. A litle small talk about the dogs, then I told her about Terrence Real's books and how she might enjoy them. She seemed interested. I had told her in an email earlier in the day that I'm moving to a new apartment in a month and that I'm still willing to try to co-create a new marriage with a healthier script. On the phone, she thanked me for the email but offered nothing really substantive emotionally.

So, I'm not going to overanalyze things. I'm still moving on with self-growth and discovery. Right now it's the most important thing in my life. I can't wait for what I read each day, and I'm trying to spread joy to others and experience joy for myself. I'm very much into the Buddhist idea of living the moment--feeling all that I feel right now with less crying about the past and less worry about the future. Right now is all that we have, and it feels great to get back on the boards and connect with people again.

One final suggestion, mile high. I think you would find Terrence Real's earlier book "I Don't Want to Talk About It" very enlightening. He writes about "covert depression" in men, which comes from socialization patterns in society and families. Men are "taught" and "encouraged" to disconnect from feelings, and as a result we plunge into work, various addictions, etc. to cope with that trauma. He writes of "passive trauma" which is emotional neglect from our caregivers as youth. Usually this comes from emotionally absent fathers. Only when a man confonts that underlying trauma can he truly grow into someone more capable of real intimacy.

You might also try soulfulllving.com. They have a daily email message of personal growth that is often very helpful. The messages themselves are great, but they also have led me to authors, websites, etc. that have been wonderfully enlightening.

Go make it a good day; give yourself and others some joy.

It was great to hear about your retreat and your new outlook on life - especially about giving yourself and other some joy everyday. Thats an excellent suggestion and I am trying to follow that myself.

Thanks also for sharing the info on the book and the website. I am just devouring all the books I can and listening to tapes as well.

Coming full circle on the issue of MLC and childhood - I think you hit a very strong note. As the sitch begins, we men are sometimes too analytical about figuring out what could have been wrong with our WAW's childhood and background that led her to be abducted by alien. But you are not going to be able to let go and "grow up" until you look inside yourself and face your own upbringing - be it the "passive trauma" or "covert depression". I have been going through this and it has been a turning point for myself.

I have been a wreck last few days since my W was served the D papers 2 days ago and that was my only option to protect my 2 DDs from seeing her OM every night with her. But the most uplifting thing that has kept me going is this new revelation about myself on how my "passive trauma" was preventing me from "growing up" and taking the posture that God wanted us men to take with our W. In the long run I still want to continue DBing and hope that my lovely W joins me in the journey called life. But if not, I still want to remember her for all the good and happy memories that we spent together. I thing deciding on the D papers was the best step I could have taken for "dropping the rope" since my W kept seeing though my "passive trauma" and threatening with D that she never followed thru. I had to do some self-catharsis to get to that decision point where I needed to take control and not let her (not my W, but the alien in her) hurt me anymore. I feel better about being right and being truthful in my reincarnation and my DDs hopefully will look up to me in the future for the action I took!

I am so excited to hear you and W engaging in small talk with a touch of R. I feel that you have taken the best steps forward to develop your spirit and she can't help but see it in you. Your move to the new apartment, your voracious reading habits and your new outlook on life will all help to streamline her thoughts about you. But more than anything else, it will help you feel better about "living for the moment".

Mile High:

You sound like overall you are in a healthy place. The pain is real; it will always likely be with you in some form, I suspect. But that is OK, I feel. You cherish the special times and feelings you had with your wife. Nothing wrong with that at all; in fact, it's good to acknowledge those feelings. Don't fall into the trap of rewriting your history, as apparently a lot of MLCers do. You're a bigger person than that. Acknowledging our feelings, including feelings of pain, is a critical step on our journey of growth. Too many men (and maybe a few of our MLC WAW choose "escape" at least temporarily, in shopping, affairs, alchohol, drugs, etc. rather than confront the issues head on. Good for you for dealing squarely with them.

I deeply respect your decision to take some control, especially for the well being of your kids. I don't have kids, but control is something I struggle with lately. I've been pretty good at DB techniques--no guilt, manipulation, demanding an answer about the R, or insisting on seeing her when she said she wants "space." I've done all that!! Yet some days I feel like I'm being a fool. She's out spending up a storm, though we're not yet to insolvency! About three more months at the current pace, however, and we're in some trouble. Still, she's shopping like crazy while I live a Spartan existence in my current place. That's by choice--I'm much more into reading and reflecting on life than shopping at the moment, but she shows no signs of awareness of what she's doing. It's all about her right now--classic MLC!!!! She had to care for the dogs when I was away last weekend, but she sent them to the kennel for two nights!!!!

When I move I'm going to start spending some money to furnish the place. If we end up with a D, I can see myself staying there for a while. I never saw my current place that way; it's not horrible, but I figured we'd either be working together by now or divorced, and thus I never saw myself staying there for more than a few months. Instead of D or working together, however, the limboland goes on and on and on!!!

In short, if one more round of high spending comes in this month, I'm going to try to take control myself by demanding a new financial arrangement while we are "working" on things. I'm not going to let 11 years of fiscal prudence be blown up in a few months of insanity. I've probably waited too long now, but frankly I've got an incentive to let things go for a few more weeks. I'm going to spend some money on things for the new apartment. If we end up with a D, at least she will be paying for half of my new stuff!!! I've helped pay for half of her "fun" all summer, so it's time for a turnabout.

One final question for you--if WAW doesn't want a new financial arrangement, I'm leaning heavily toward taking unilateral action. In other words, opening a new account for my paycheck, cutting her off the credit cards that are primarily in my name (and giving her back my copies of cards that are primarily in her name), and sweeping out half the funds left in the checking account. Then, I'd tell her what I'm doing and that I could not stand by any longer and watch the account dwindle.


That's an escalation I don't want to happen, but one I feel may be coming. Part of me was happy she approached me in the store; I told her so in a brief email. I appreciated her desire to talk on the phone for ten minutes the other night. But those are such small crumbs that I am not going to make too much of them. They are a change from the status quo, however. She even thanked me for a couple flowers I left her at the house the other day when I mowed the lawn. Maybe that's all she's capable of now and I should still be patient, but on the other hand I often feel I need and deserve more and should live my life as I want. The only real sign of progress will be if she says she wants to work together. I am starting to feel that until I hear that, I should assume she's not coming back.

Would you advise a unilateral financial move? My feeling is that it may be warranted if we can't come to an agreement. I'll try to talk to her first, but if she wants no part of that what other choice do I have????? Her family is loaded and can give her whatever she needs the rest of her life; my parents have no money to give me.

This was a long post; thanks for getting through it and keep on your own journey and keep taking care of your kids. Those two matters are what's most important now. You are already a better person, and you will be a more desirable person for a future mate if that is what you want. I'm convinced our society is full of lonely, isolated people desperate for real connection and intimacy.

All through our M, my W has been the financial keeper. She is extremely good at it and I would take her back just for that reason (just kidding!). Having said that, I wanted to grow up and take ownership of my finances right after she walked away. We separated our finances amicably. This was part of my 180 at the beginning of my sitch so that I could show her that I can take control of the finances. I felt insecure at the beginning, but I feel much better today about splitting our finances right away with a MLC WAW. I am still collecting and putting together the pieces of the financial puzzle; this is not my forte, but I defintely feel better about myself.

You have to decide whats best for your situation. I know you have to give her space and show your friendly side, but its better to set the boundaries early than later, I believe.

Mile High:

Thanks for your input. I think when I make the move to talk first, and then act unilaterally if I have to, it will surprise her. Could be a good thing and shake up the status quo, could lead to a D, could lead to neither. I've given up trying to predict her reactions and the future; live the moment. I will have to be prepared for possible scenarios in case they develop, however. I'm seeing a lawyer next week just to get a clear picture of what rights I would have in a D if it comes to that. I should have talked to a lawyer right off the bat, but I'm not losing sleep over the past.

Whatever the case, I have to do something to protect myself. To not act in a case like this is to act. I will try to be calm and reasonable by making an offer to talk it out peacefully (but only after I've spent some $ on myself in the next month!!!) but I will have to gear up for a more confrontational approach if needed.

Mile High:

Just checking in after a few days' absence. How are you and the family doing?

Nothing new with me and WAW. She's still stone cold silent. I'm still avidly reading, talking with friends and living my life. I really have realized that it's my job to create some joy for myself and others each day. I'm not living in the past; nor am I worrying about the future. Focus on living the moment, feeling all your feelings at any particular time.

I saw a great quote somewhere on these boards over the weekend. Don't know if it's "famous" or if it came from a poster, but it basically said to keep healing and developing yourself. One day you will look at your side and either see your spouse, or he/she will be so far behind you that at that point it won't matter. Sounds like good advice to me.

Terrence Real has a powerful quote that sticks with me. Basically he says that we are stuck in the relationship matrix we grew up in until we do the hard work to get on a different road. Usually we have to be jolted out of that programming from childhood, and sometimes that means divorce. Either we get off the old road with our spouses or someone new, but we must do it to live a fuller life.

Take care.