And before I came to this forum, I thought it was so unique of my W to say: ILYBNILWY. She was also very clear in letting me know that 'all her life she has taken care of others and now is the time to take care of herself'.
What you need to do is exactly the same - take care of yourself, detach, stay away from the emotional mess and make yourself a better person. The difference between her selfish thoughts and yours is that she is confused and you are not!
Last edited by mile_high_PMA; 09/04/0709:58 PM.
Me 41, ring on W 36, ring off married 13 yrs Separated D9, D5 bomb May, 07 My sitch
Boooks I found helpful [in addition to Valentine's excelent suggestions: neither deals specifically with MLC, but throw insight onto how early experiences stunt people
'The Search for the Real Self' by James Masterson - recommended by my therapist.
The Successful Self' by Dorothy Rowe.
Both are written by well respected pschychologists, and practitioners and are easy to read.
I now realise that my h was a walking time-bomb, but lovely and loveable.
Many, many thanks to all who have shared their thoughts and suggestions.
Snodderly: She came from a stable family situation (parents still married after 30 years, no drugs, physical abuse of anyone, no alcoholism, no instability in terms of illness, death, etc.), but the emotional issues have been there for a long time. She has been in/out of therapy since late adolescence, and has been on/off Prozac and other anti-depressants. She seems, though, to have made great strides in this area in the last year. It was always a touchy subject, and we didn't talk about it much. We should have, but that's under the bridge now. Depression runs in the family, though it seems to have skipped her parents. Her grandparents, at least some of them, were a different story. I never knew any of them because they were dead when we met, but, I kid you not, one of her grandmothers left notes on how to cook Thanksgiving dinner in case she died in her sleep the night before Thanksgiving. I don't know that she did that every year, but it happened at least once. WAW also has a deep, deep fear of flying that relates to feeling trapped. I think this helps explain her feelings about the M. The separation is in part rooted in her long held desire always to find the "escape" from whatever she felt was holding her prisoner.
Mile High: Our situations sound very similar, though your wife has gone further off the deep end, so to speak. I don't have any evidence of OM, but wouldn't be surprised if there was one. She denied that to me after the separation when I briefly raised that angle. I have been married 11 years, and my ring is still on too! Like you, I kick myself for missing the signs. They sure where there, all right. Dumb, dumb, dumb!!!!! My fog has lifted, and I'm not the same person I was two months ago. All the signs are so clear now. I would not be making these changes in myself without the separation, so no matter what happens to the M, I will always be grateful for this chance at growth, hard as it is. Keep up your good work too.
Curiously, she has made a couple of peaks out of the tunnel in the last three days.
First, a bit of background. We don't live together; I've been out of the house for three months now. She asked for space, and I'm giving plenty of that to her. We've had a few brief phone conversations, and last week when I dropped off the dogs for her to care for (no kids), she stormed into the house (she knew I was there; in the past she's always made sure to be gone when I dropped the dogs off) and immediately yelled "Why are you still here? You're being selfish!" No, I wasn't. I was there 15 minutes later than when I said I'd drop the dogs off, and she didn't have to come in anyway. Well, she did apologize for that outburst, and then dropped to the floor crying, saying "My life is all fu..ed up." I asked if she wanted to talk about anything, but she said no. I left. She then started crying more loudly. I went back one more time to ask if she wanted to talk. No. I left.
I think I got a peek behind the mask that day. She's in pain. Most of the summer, I feel like I've been staring into the great void of space waiting for some signal. I'm not helpless; I'm working on myself and connecting with friends and family in new, deeper ways. I really am detaching.
Well, during the past three days two slight changes have appeared. She was away last weekend, and when she called to let me know she arrived safely she said "Call me on the cell phone if you need anything." I did not call. In the past, it has been a straight "I'm here." Today, she emailed and asked how the dogs were (I have had them for the last week). Clearly, she was looking for a response. I gave her a brief one, strictly about the dogs.
I know not to overanalyze these types of things. Snodderly, or anyone else, is it normal for people in MLC to periodically stick their nose out of the tunnel? The actions, few as they are, over the past three weeks seem to suggest she "wants" some type of contact. Does she even know what she wants? I'm not getting my hopes up here; just trying to "guess" what is going on and trying to figure out the best response. I still am standing for the marriage, but I know all about GAL, detachment, "as if", etc.
Many thanks for any insights! To those of us in this boat, carry on! And to those who are further down this road, I can't express enough how grateful I am for your willingness to share your insights.
I would not be making these changes in myself without the separation, so no matter what happens to the M, I will always be grateful for this chance at growth, hard as it is.
Amen!
Do they peek out of their tunnel at times? you bet they do. My W does every other day. Thats why everybody here keeps warning us of the roller coaster ride. No matter what, we have to get on with our life so that we can be ready to pull them off the end of the tunnel when they are ready to get out themselves, and not before that.
At the beginning I was hopelessly waiting for my W's "awekening" - as if its going to come quicker if I wait around. That was my shortcoming. I have learnt since then not to get so excited about their peek-outs of the tunnel, but keep building yourself up and grow inside. The MLC spouse do want to see something pleasant when they peek out, especially since they are so confused inside....
Me 41, ring on W 36, ring off married 13 yrs Separated D9, D5 bomb May, 07 My sitch
You are right. Like you, I am not hanging on every word or trying to read into every action. I used to look around the house (not snooping!) when I was there to pay bills and try to guess what she was feeling based on books I saw on the table, rearranged furniture, etc. Now, I just don't care about stuff like that. I obviously am still intrigued a bit when she peeks out of the tunnel, but even now I brush it off more easily than before. I have not stopped paying attention, however. I am not going dark.
I'm moving in a month to a better apartment, and I am going to start some volunteer work someplace (have to decide where) in the weeks ahead. She knows how to reach me if she ever wants to work on the tough stuff together. I'd still like to, but there are days when I wonder if I really know her, and if she knows me. All summer, it's been like staring into the great void of outer space in terms of talk about serious stuff. A few, and I do mean few, trickles, but always by phone or email, and it's almost always been me trickling out stuff to her. My therapist says that's OK for now. No great pressure, but WAW's paradigm has been that I need to change. Well, maybe step one is to try to convince her that things are "moving" with me, that I just didn't move out without going in a new direction emotionally. Maybe once she feels "safe" (if she ever gets there) with that idea we can move on to what I feel are some other issues we need to address, issues that are more directly tied to her behavior. One step at a time, I guess, on a long, long road. Then again, maybe I'm just engaging in wishful thinking!! Maybe the M really is dead (but she has not said she wants a D; just no sign either way).
We obviously have a history, but I know I've been through so much the last three months that I am a different person. Nothing looks the same--me, her, us, the world. I'm not saying that I've got it all figured out, but I am enjoying the journey in a way. I started reading a book on Zen and love last night--never would have done that three months ago. I've got books by the Dali Lama on my shelf that I can't wait to get to! I miss my W, but at the same time I haven't experienced this kind of "jump" in discovery about anything since college. This weekend I'm going to a seminar on personal growth and intimacy in relationships in Massachusetts, and I'm excited about it. Never imagined doing that three months ago!
What have you found that works for you in terms of GAL?
As for the peak outs, just my very unsubstantiated observation from being here for awhile, I see the MLC women peeking out all the time. They are MLC exhibitionists. I think the majority of the women can't stand the notion that the men might actually be moving on, they want to periodically yank that string, make the men come running back, which usually works, where as the male MLC'ers tend to be a little more isolationist.
The women want MLC with benefits, if you get my drift.
You are right on - I am really enjoying the journey of learning new things and developing myself like yourself and many others here on the same boat. Things would not be the same if this crisis didn't come about. I thank God for making me wake up. Looking back, I was feeling a general malaise with M and lackadaisical about life in general during the last 2 years - sort of calm before the storm hit, and I was praying to God to show me that life has something better in store for me (my own mini MLC maybe?).
Like you, I haven't gone to LRT. I am staying with 180, 'as if' and GAL. What I have tried so far:
1. do fun stuff with my girls ( I took them to Disneyland by myself, unthinkable!) 2. do household projects (things I would have never dreamed of) 3. go shopping at Target, Wal-Mart (things I stopped doing during my M, I thought that was not manly) 4. picked back up my photography hobby 5. gone to a synagogue to expose the kids to their heritage (I am not Jewish, mind you) 6. re-arranged/improved furniture, pictures, music systems in and around house 7. clean the garage so that we can eat on the floor
Coming back to the topic of what triggers MLC.... I know conventional psychology will tend to always connect some childhood issues with this life transitioning behavior. But what about the influence of friends and media during the M? In the last few years, my W has been constantly mentioning M problems of several of her friends, some close and some neighbors. In most cases she would justify that they should get divorced and she even included her parents in this case who have been married for 50 years. And in all cases she would justify the W leaving the H. Oddly enough, in our neighborhood, which is a quite normal, middle class neighborhood with kids, there have been about 5-6 cases of WAWs in the last 2 years. I thought that was strange, but guess what? I also thought WAWs happen only to other people.
One last thing on this cause and effect, my W is a huge fan of the soap 'Days of our Lives'. If yo don't know what this soap is all about - it glorifies EAs and PAs and makes infidelity a cherishable option in life. She would DVR the episodes and watch them at night, devouring every bit of it. Yes, I take the blame of not making it a priority to find some activity to enjoy together. But even when I was ready to spend some time with her, she would much rather watch her soap. Little did I know that I would actually take part in 'Days of our Lives'!
Me 41, ring on W 36, ring off married 13 yrs Separated D9, D5 bomb May, 07 My sitch
You sound like you are doing "great", relatively speaking. Not that any of us is truly "well" at a time like this, but I'm glad to hear you are not sitting around moping or clueless, or engaged in self-destructive behaviors. Like you, I have avoided that stage. I plunged right into trying to figure out why I was the way I was. Like you, I have looked at the last three years of my life (a new, very stressful job; we moved because my WAW was very unhappy personally and professionally where we used to live). I see more clearly than ever how the new job triggered old fears, and I feel I subconsciously "blamed" WAW for my pain. Part of the problem was a lack of physical and mental energy; I let the job drain so much out of me that all I wanted to do most weekends was nap. Pathetic!! My fault!!! We really stopped having fun as a couple, spent less time together because I traveled more (though not like many people do), worked a few nights, weekend mornings sometimes, etc. I turned from her; she turned from me and a downward spiral ensued.
Our problems are deeper than the last three years, so I don't chalk it up only to that, but I feel we took a dramatic turn for the worse since the move. I see that now; I was in denial. Based on family history, I did not have the skills, or knowledge, of how to deal with my feelings about what was happening.
I know my WAW saw my pain, though I admit I should have been more forthcoming and self reflective about my feelings (she told me I was a different person since the move, I denied that; she was right!) and yet I feel I didn't get enough support (emotional or otherwise) from her. She tried to soothe her guilt and make me feel better by saying that my new situation was the price I had to pay for advancement, and that my old job, where I felt a sense of connection, had an abnormal office climate. Both of those statements were true. But, I have thought a lot about that this summer, and frankly this is where I feel she needs to own up. I feel she could have done "little" (but really not so little, in my book) things like relieving some of the burden I did around the house in terms of chores (I really did do more things than most men) as well as offer more emotional support.
Throw in what looks, at least in part, to be a MLC/change by the WAW, and it all blows up with layer after layer of complexity. It's going to be a long, long road back, if ever.
I feel like I'm finally understanding, and breaking free, from many of the chains of the past three years, and in understanding the deeper roots of my identity and behavior over a lot longer period than that. I feel a new zest for life, a new creativity, instead of the lethargy I slumbered along with over the past three years. I am angry with myself for not discovering these things about myself earlier (WAW periodically tried to get me into individual C over the years, but never pushed too hard; I refused and said I was "fine").
Mile High, I don't know about you, but I read Michele's book and many others and see many success stories. I'm not naive; my situation may end in D, but I also don't believe for a second that WAW and I have really done the hard work to try to save the marriage. I fear, though, that in her mind she feels she's done everything. On the other hand, she's not talking D. She's just not talking period!!!! As a good divorce buster, I'm staying away from her except for a few emails about the dogs. We don't have any kids. I have trickled out a few things that I'm working on, so hopefully I've surprised her in some ways and given her something to think about. "Well, maybe he's not such a .... after all." But that is conjecture, so I won't go too far down that road. All I know is that she doesn't want to talk about the R.
Does that sound like your WAW? If so, how are you coping with that? Do you try to drop hints of what you're working on emotionally? How much does your WAW know?
How has your situation unfolded in recent years? Do we have any similarities here too?
Bruce wow! I didn't know I will find somebody like you who can mirror my feelings and situations. I hope this thread doesn't become a dialogue between the two of us, but hopefully we leave a trail that helps someone else in a similar sitch.
you mentioned: "I did not have the skills, or knowledge, of how to deal with my feelings about what was happening." I think its great that we realize what we lacked in our R, but never, never take the blame for the W's decision to walk away without working on the M or indulge in infidelity with multiple OMs as is the case with me. Also from what I read from R books, its typical of M to lack that skill and express their emotional feelings. On the other hand W expect their M to intuitively know how their Ws are feeling. this is crazy!
"Do you try to drop hints of what you're working on emotionally? How much does your WAW know?"
I only drop hints by my action, like Michelle and others have suggested. I let my W decide what she wants to see and gather from how I am developing myself and moving on with my life.
Like you, my career and job took a blow 2 years ago at the same time my sitch started. Like most M, I have been a very career oriented guy throughout and my self esteem is dictated by how I perform. The situation with work (job stability, lack of direction, travel) etc. was taking a toll on my self esteem. The sitch was a double whammy. I still pride myself of having a rock steady self esteem. But even rocks can be moved too. All these issues at job and career made me a little tender and pensive and less enthused with life and I am sure that was one of the catalysts for my W's MLC.
I do want to face up to a mistake and hopefully this helps others who are dealing with MLC Ws. When my W started getting depressed and started denying her MLC in the early stages of all this, I would try to reason with her a lot. this could have been one more catalyst. so here are the do's when your wife starts getting depressed or changes her life patterns. These are nothing new, but worth revisiting:
1. try to use your heart more than your brain in your R 2. listen to her and validate her feelings, don't question her feelings 3. don't smother her, giver her plenty of space 4. get on the DB program right away - change yourself, do 180's and make yourself more attractive as a person rather than wallow in your own pity 5. try spending more time together in activities that you may enjoy together, or try new activities together.
Me 41, ring on W 36, ring off married 13 yrs Separated D9, D5 bomb May, 07 My sitch
