I'll try anything. If this stuff spreads any further up my legs, me and my 2 little blue friends will be praying real hard for the second coming of Christ! Someone also told me to run hot water as hot as you can stand over the area to relieve the itch....ummmm yea, once you get over the smell of burning flesh the itch does seem to go away.
Getting outdoors was nice and I really do appreciate the link for the reading. Right now on these message boards, I'm more of a taker than a giver. I'm quite new to all these self help type books mentioned here. I've read the 5 love languages, SSM, DB and a few others. Is there anything else that you recommend?
There are a few on these boards that seem like they are a fountain of information, you included. I find myself drawn to their posts and try to emulate what they are saying and doing into my situation.
So for now, I'm going to continue to be a taker of all the good advice on here and maybe someday be able to look back and be able to add some of my own....wait a minute... I do have a little tibit of advice - don't play in poison ivy. Unless...it involves your partner, being naked, no no don't go there ! The male mind, what a horrible thing!
On Corri’s thread I mentioned that W and I had a long talk last week. This is a follow up on that conversation, or as much as I can remember of it.
W complained that she got no validation from me. She went into a long example of talks at her school with other women teachers, how they exchange ideas and recommendations for dealing with the kids, etc. I didn’t hear anything out of the norm from any other work related conversation, but she claimed that because the other teachers listened to her ideas, she was being validated.
I told her that she was comparing apples to oranges because she does not have an intimate relationship with those teachers. With me, there are much deeper levels that come into play. At work, she can go to other people for validation if one teacher does not give her what she wants. We can only come to each other in the marriage, and I can only come to her for sex. So her validation needs to come from me and mine needs to come from her. She then started going through her filing cabinet of complaints. I stopped her and said that if she had so many complaints and could not get past them, then we just needed to D. She simply agreed but did not push the issue. So I kept going.
We discussed how she feels men’s valuation of women is flawed, that men do not place value on home making and motherly duties. She believes women need to become successful in workplace to get respect and acceptance from men. I told her that if she truly believes there is value in what a woman and mother does in the home, why does she look to career women as being more successful and worthy of more respect? She does not believe in being subjugated to men, she does not believe in the “rules” made by men, yet she judges herself and other women by rules defined by men. This is hypocritical.
She says she believes this because of what her father always said, that women should defer to men for major decisions, but inside the family, at the emotional level, women hold the real power. So W makes her stand on the home front, and has abdicated “outside matters” such as my work related issues to me. I told her that I thought she did this in exchange for me giving up my say so over family matters and the kids (this is one of those unspoken, covert contracts on her part). In this way, she was controlling and limiting my involvement in the family, or that’s how it felt to me.
I told her that I think she is still rebelling against her father and his machismo ideas toward women and the workplace. But on the other hand she is incorporating his ideas that women should “rule” in the home. Furthermore she is using his standard of respect toward women in how she herself places value on other women. By that I mean she thinks that if women defer to men (and therefore subjugate themselves to men), she cannot respect those women as much as if they were not being “subjugated” to a man. Yet she then told me that she believes men and women have equal worth and value. So there is an inherent contradiction in her thinking and how she values herself. I told her she is still dancing to her father’s voice in her head and still trying to please him.
I told W that using the very standards of her father, which she despises, to judge her and myself is one of the secondary effects of her FOO that she has not addressed. She has come to terms in dealing with the loss associated with her parents’ divorce, her father’s leaving, her mother’s death, but has not come to terms with how all of those emotions impacts her attitude toward men and our marriage. She still allows her prejudices to keep her resentment alive and hold on to the past, and not letting go of that keeps a convenient wedge in the M.
She admitted that she still holds onto anger and resentment. As I mentioned on Corri’s thread, I told W that when she is angry and goes into her cave, that increases my anxiety, so I pursue her. When I get angry, that makes me appear as the “abuser” by default (because I am the one making a proactive action), when all she is trying to do is to “get away.” I told her (and she knows) that this type of abandoning behavior or not talking is a form of verbal abuse, and I feel hurt and abandoned when she does it.
I asked her if she thought she was an empathic and compassionate person, and she said yes, very much so. I then asked how that could be if she cannot understand my feelings and the role she plays in hurting my feelings. There is a disconnect there. I told her that I think her resentment causes her to have a biased sense of empathy. That is, she has a hard time feeling empathy toward men because she keeps playing her father’s voice in her head, so she is rebelling against the inconsideration he displays in his ideas about women by being non-empathic toward men, and me.
We talk about what it is that I want in the M (for the 100th time). She complained that she is busy with school and trying to keep after the kids and has little time, but I “demand” more time with her that she does not have. She has made this statement numerous times before, so again I stopped her and asked when did I ever say that? I told her she keeps wanting to hear something I did not say. I said have always wanted involvement from her, but that does not require much time. Calling me at the end of the day does not take much time. Checking when I’ll be home, or what I’m doing (or what she’s doing) doesn’t take much time. Coordinating dinner or who needs to pick up the kids does not take much time. I told her she keeps hearing my wants though her filters, and seems to come up with the idea that meeting them is a form of subjugation. I told her that is not at all what I am asking.
On Corri’s Workshop II thread, I stated: I predict this will go better between us this weekend but she will find something to stress over, probably the kids school work, or going out too much, not telling her where they are, something. So we shall see.
The weekend did go as I expected. Things were smooth between W and I but there were some flair ups between W and D16. D16 has been going out more with friends (which I encourage) but not keeping up with her chores, which is what makes W mad. Up until a week ago, there was a similar problem with D14, who still keeps her room messy, but does not seem to argue back about it now. Oh, W was still frustrated with the dog, but not as much as before.
Since school started, the stress level has been up for W. She was transferred to another school and has new students. This group is apparently very “low,” meaning low in IQ (she is a special ed teacher working with disabled kids). She put into practice advice given her last year by an experienced teacher and that is to take control and be very stern from he git go. So she has been “barking” at these kids to get them to behave, pay attention and follow directions, at it is working. Even the principal commented on how well things were going compared to last year’s teacher, who was simply passing time until retirement.
What I saw was that W was coming home with the same mindset from school and barking at our kids. I realized this over the weekend and told her to knock it off, that I didn’t like hearing that tone from her. She apparently wasn’t even aware she was doing that because I could tell she suddenly realized it, and stopped the barking. The rest of the weekend went much smoother. I think addressing her father’s voice in her head was a major breakthrough for our marriage. We shall see how far it carries.
I must say that reading that made me cringe a little, because I see a lot of how you handle R convos in me. As I kept reading and reading I realized that I (and maybe you too, but only you can be the judge) talk about too much. Its like the professor who introduces too many topics in lecture. At some point the students tune out because they can't process anymore, and if you keep going, you actually start making them lose information because they are trying too hard to stay focused on what they do know. Does that make any sense? I've found that I can almost to a 100% level trace back commonly missed questions on tests to lectures in which I just put way too much info into one session.
From your description it does seem very much that your W is in a state of massive confusion about how she really feels about M, male/female dynamics, and such. Another thing I have noticed is that when students get really confused, they won't listen at all to new information, no matter how straightforward. They'll sit there and nod their head as if in agreement, and even answer questions coherently, but nothing is going in.
Perhaps something you could try is to get her to talk in detail (maybe over several sessions) about her specific feelings on specific points. Being the thoroughly organized person you are, perhaps you could come up with some hypothetical scenarios to talk about that would not only be illustrative of specific points (rather than being too general) but would also remove the personal "taint" a bit because they wouldn't directy relate to her experiences. Sure, she could and probably will still personalize, but maybe if she could step a little outside herself she could loosen a little bit.
JMHO
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I hear you. In fact, I had troubling remembering all we talked about while trying to put this post together. At the time, the subjects just sort of flowed from one to another and as we went along, they started to come together for me. I think this issue with her dad is THE main problem that is holding us back. I have thought so for years but until now have not been able to piece it together in my mind.
This idea about my W listening to her dad's voice and how it affects her view was really the only new idea in our discussion. Most everything else was old subject matter rehashed. So even though there was a lot, I don't think she went blank. The other thing is that I have tried to not have these discussions in a long time. I can't remember when we had our last major talk. We have had some ongoing talks that might last 15-20 minutes, but that's about it. Whenever things start to get too heated, we just drop it. So I am hopeful that we might have made some progress last week.
Yes, she is definitely confused about how she feels toward men and relationships, at least with regard to how her views fit in with other people's views (especially mine). She was quite clear in how she thought SHE saw things. But she is not a big picture person, does not take time to analyze things (since she is ADD) and had no clue as to the contradictions in her own views. I could see those plain as day, but she just couldn't see what she couldn't see.
I will try to bring up this whole issue in another week or so to see where she stands on it and if it still makes sense to her or not. My suspicion is that some of it will have become jumbled again, but as long as she recognizes that she is listening to contradictory voices, that might be enough.
I'm curious about something... would you describe yourself as an approachable warm person? Seriously. I know I would describe myself with those words... and I'm willing to bet there are more than a few people around here who just can't fathom that in their mental image of me.... and I'm sure it is because of the way I write and how my tone is perceived. I was kind of... surprised, actually, when Lou said what he said about me on MoJo's thread... it didn't hurt my feelings... but it does help me tremendously to know that that is how he mentally views me.
When I read the stuff you write about your wife, I just cannot fathom you as an approachable, warm person. That doesn't mean that you aren't. It just doesn't fit with the mental image I've created for you... in my Corri world. I don't know that I do that on purpose, but in absence of ANY other means of ascertaining/remembering someone... the only thing I have to go on is how I interpret meaning from your writing. I'm sure we all do that to a greater or lesser degree.
You said something about that on my thread... you asked me if you reminded me of my xH when you disagree with me... and I said no... that was an honest answer, btw... but giving it some thought... I'm not so sure that I don't automatically hear you in my head in a certain way when I read some of your posts... as I do for everyone here... maybe it is a way for me to sort information, or remember screen names and posts and incidents related to said people... you know what I mean? I think the brain does it to help itself.
Dunno.
But... I am going to keep this in mind, what you've said... and removing those filters you've talked about... that will be a great help to me.
Interesting question….. let me think….. I think it depends on who you ask. I think you know what my wife would say, though that too would depend on when you asked her. I don’t keep any female friends, other than people I work with and I think they would all say that I am approachable, nice and at times funny. I try to be as easy going as I can at work.
I do have male friends here at the office, especially guys who play on the softball team. I do like to joke with them, am about average as far as being introverted/extroverted. I like to crack a dry sort of humor but also like male forms of joking.
As for my writing style, well if you’ve ever listened to some of the speeches given by Alan Greenspan, you might see that I like his convoluted, drawn out, sort of indirect way of leading up to a statement. I sometimes do that in conversation too, but generally I think my writing is much more formal than my speech. After all, I live in Texas you know.
