Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums THE SEX-STARVED MARRIAGE Cobra's Workshop

Since Corri’s Workshop thread is getting long, I’ll answer her question on a new thread. She said:

Cobra:

I'm giving you a heads up on something. I am ready to call you on your B.S. I'm not going to do it to piss you off.

OK, I’ll go along with that, though I think I’ve heard something to that effect from women before…. I’ll answer this question first since it seems to better lead into the other question.

And... after me asking this... do you have a need/impulse/want/rational to tell me?

OK…. Let’s see…. I’ll start off by taking a little bit of CeMar… it would be nice to have someone show a little desire for me, to show some concern and affection, to consider my feelings and needs to the same extent I consider hers. That would as simple as waiting to come home to eat so everyone could be together, rather than her stopping by Wendy’s and feeding herself whenever she is hungry, even though it is close to dinner time. Just a little desire from her to do things together would be nice.

I would like her to focus a little attention on the marriage as an end in itself, rather than a means to another end, that being her independence from all other people. This means finding a little faith in others. That would be nice. But there are so many steps in that path I don’t hold my breath, yet it would be nice.

Yeah, I know, this is all dependent on her. But remember, I don’t entirely buy the argument that focusing on yourself when the other person checks out of the relationship will make you happy. So I want someone with whom I can feel a part of the team, someone who does not pull back into a shell.

I would also like a little bit of Blackfoot, that part where he is looking for an independent woman who is not too clingy (not too much cave dwelling, not too clingy) so I can feel supported and not have to worry or listen to veiled jealousy when I do things such as sports outings, going on vacation, weekend trips, visiting relatives, etc. So there are some of my enmeshed needs that come to mind.

What do YOU want to have happen in your M, in YOUR life?

I want to feel I am building some kind of future for myself and my family, where I can provide security for my kids as they grow, go to college, and move into life. I would like to know that what I make is not wasted but saved for building a nest egg. I do not want the worry of whether that nest egg will be spent one way or another. I want to one day try my hand at some projects that could be a sideline business, or at least hobby. I want to be able to enjoy life and for once not wake up wondering what the next fight is going to be about. I want to live each day as if on vacation, where the weight of the world is lifted off my shoulders (like that feeling at the end of the semester when you just took your last exam).

I want to be more than just a workhorse, bringing home a paycheck. My wife generally knows what kind of company I work for and vaguely what kind of work I do, but she really has no idea how I make a living, nor does she care. It would be nice for someone to have some interest in what I do, to have a princess for whom I can feel like a knight, to provide some inspiration, like Dieda describes.

I pretty much do what I like, such as the recreational activities, though that is not often. (I rarely travel and am home every night and weekend.) I control my money. I can detach and do my own thing, get a life, try to make my self happy, as best I can, and from that perspective, things are ok, but it really is a parallel living situation, not a relationship. As everyone on this board complains about, there is simply not the connection or the validation to make me feel fulfilled. That is what makes a relationship worth having. There needs to be sharing. There needs to be a purpose.

Well, that’s a pretty round about answer to your questions, but I’ll start with that.

Cobra:

Wow. I'm gonna NAIL you.

Look at MY workshop. We'll converge, at some point...CeCobra.

Corri

son is only 10. He gets an attitude at times, but I think it comes from the marriage and the occasional arguing. W is convinced that he is learning from me how to be disrespectful to women. It think she is teaching him that lesson all on her own. I can understand his frustration.

My approach is to try to side with him and his feelings, and talk about what he did, why it is wrong, then give him a face-saving way out so he does not feel humiliated. W does the opposite. She wants him to own up to his mistakes and apologize, not just for his actions but his anger and attitude too. All that does is piss him off more (and it really pisses me off when I see her doing it to him).

I think you and your W are both probably correct in the first paragraph, Cobra.
Boys look closely to their Faaahhhzure for how to behave. My half brother use to pull his hair out on the front of his head around the age of 11, to the point where he looked like his hair was receeding. When his dad finally got him to explain why, the reason was 'to be like you, dad'. Sheesh.
Your W may in fact be being Disrespectful to you, but its how you react and deal with it that he is going to copy. The better you handle someone elses disrespect, the more glaringly obvious it is to everyone, including the disrespector.

I would like to understand better, what is going on in the second paragraph. I understand face saving in certain Heavy situations, Mutally Assured Destruction comes to mind. In fact, I picked a fight with Corri a long time ago to show HD how to de-escalate without retreating, because his W is so hard. (I know Corri remembers it. )

However humiliation comes from damaged pride/ego. That is the dangerous part of narcissim IMO. I dont understand how failing to own, accept and yes apologize for (I said that) REAL WRONGS can do anything but create false ego. Im curiouis what your thoughts are.

If I remember correctly your Mother used a lot of shaming tactics (for whatever reason) to prevent you from being what she *didnt* want you to become. Thats rough.
If I remember correctly, your W has real reason to fear Men's power, or at least the abuse thereof. yes?
so it makes sense you would get really pissed off at any hint of your W shaming your son. Its both of your touchstones.

Its not going to be easy for you, OR her to get past that. Lets just say, she wont ever be able to.
Can you? you can only try and do your best. Whenever you do well, tell yourself you did well. Hug yourself.

Back to humiliation.

Its not always the best tactic to apologize, as I well know. I apologized to x for my ego dissassembling tirade. I clearly remember, after I was finished, we went to bed, and she held my hand and clung to me all thru the night in her sleep. the next morning, she was pacing back and forth and threatening to leave, but uncertain. and then I apologized... 'I should not have acted that way last night. It was wrong and I should not have done that,.... and she started packing. predictable. often an apology will be received by the wronged with 'Takers' revenge to 'even the emotional score cards', but its never the wrong thing to do. IMO. and AA's. I dont fault myself for apologizing for that tirade, damn I felt good afterwards, but that tirade was ridiculously abusive and an inexcusable lack of control.

You posted an excellant piece about ego a while back Cobra. It was so right on, I should find it again. Here are two humiliations from my life, that come to my mind immediately.

My ego was humiliated by x's affair. No ifs ands or buts. My reaction was to *snap* *poof*. Pack your sh1t, M/FIL's here is your daughter, x fcck you, its NOYDB, where I am going.
My penance/ show of remorse, acknowledgement that I screwed up with the withdrawal of EC, and R leap frogging, was doing what it took to create the possibility for a Reconcil. Things are so whack in that situation emotionally, it was really really hard to determine if I was doing the reconcil effort out of withdrawals, competition, or care/love(choice- when the feeling is gone). and I did try to determine and make sure of that the first time, before beginning my efforts. Some of my actions demonstrated that it was competition. They were effective, some say 'its all fair in love and war' but Im not one of those people. I dont use them in my day to day dealings, or even when I initiate a R, its my personal rule, and so I dont excuse myself for using them then.
Its hard to not abuse power, when your heels are hanging off of a cliff.
Next time *snap* *poof*. It will be about me. Not her. Make sense now Cobra? If not, thats the best I can explain, and thats as far as I will discuss it.

What I really wanted to do was tell her exactly how pathetically needy and stupid she was. That is unacceptable behavior.
I finally got my opportunity after tricking her into the reconcil. ( her opinion on things. ) The anger leaked out eventually, cause it was excessively painful.

another ex, My ego was humiliated by my rebreather tarfu, because of the witness factor. Ego. If I had been alone, I would have laughed it off, (as much as you can laugh off clinical death) and said thats almost all 9 lives dumbass.

I changed the paramaters of my calculations/ miscalculated (which is irrelevant to the unknowledgeable)/ which really means, I screwed up huge, which isnt so bad, when its just you. It happened, in front of impressionables. People Im supposed to be leading/providing example/making feel safe.

My penance/ show of remorse, was allowing myself to be medivaced and staying in ICU. In this case, I screwed up once allready, I wasnt going to continue to set a bad example.
I used to unplug my sh!t, and wander around with my Erythromycin bottle, (another penance. I dont normally use antibiotics, its against my 'religion' lol) and meet the other drowners. Pissed the nurses off.
If I had been on my own, there is no way in he77 I would have gone to the hospital. I allready knew I was fine, and allready knew what I screwed up on.
In fact when they were discussing calling the chopper, I heard x say, 'He is conscious now, [fellow instructor]. You know He is not going to do that. You think you can get him on there, [fellow instructor] if he doesnt want to?' It cost me -in a lot of ways.
Im a firm believer, You screw up-- there are consequences. you wanna play, you gotta pay.

So all that was to make the point,
I think humiliation is a good time to check your pride motivations, and examine who you are- compared to who your ego wants you to be. Im curious what you think humiliation means, and when and why saving face is neccesary.

Corri,

In response to your reply on your thread here, , let me continue on my thread….

My initial response to you is to say... "poor you." If you want to get out... you do what you need to get out.

My decision to get out is not in limbo, it is only on hold. The girls are old enough to handle things but S10 is still a little young. Because of that I have some concern over how the court might determine custody and therefore division of assets. Who has custody of S10 will impact who has the house and whether the house can be kept or must be sold.

Don't compare Mrs. Cobra to me. Mrs. Cobra is Mrs. Cobra. Deal with her and not some rendition you want her to compare with me...

I admire you greatly but I am not holding you up as a fantasy. What I am holding up is how far from other “normal” relationships my wife seems to be. I don’t know any men or any women that I have talked to about my sitch who can truly understand why my wife acts and rebels as she does (outside the context of her FOO, this is).

xH is and will always be, xH. The problem was NEVER with xH. The problem was with me. My purpose. My goal. What I wanted in life. What made me (not Corri) happy. And how **I** wanted to get there.

Well if you believe all that then good for you. But if it were entirely true, why have you not gone back to him. The fact is that he too is flawed and he too is a large part of the problem. It might empower us to think we are fully responsible for our happiness and in complete control of that, but I don’t believe it for one minute. Others in our lives impact us deeply. When they are flawed it makes our lives that much harder. When they are healthy, it makes our lives that much easier, no matter how happy we might be internally.

You now care for your bf. When you two don’t agree, are you happy? When you two do agree, do you feel like he is “the one?” He impacts you.

I never did, and never WILL regret my decisions to to D.

Good. I don’t regret any of my decisions so far either.

I did NOT make my decision in anger. Nor in petulance. Nor in revenge. It was an active choice. I'm not looking for ^5s or attagirls, or... even... 'too bad you didn't hang on a few months longer,' kind of feedback. I accept FULL and COMPLETE responsibility for my decision.

Initially when I filed for D last year, there was some anger and resentment, and when that subsided and I re-evaluated the impact on the family, plus what I thought I was hearing from W to work on the marriage, I unsuited the D. The next time it will be even less emotionally bound for I will have been contemplating and emotionally preparing for some time. Before things spun out of control and all of a sudden I was in front of the lawyers. I was not really prepared.

You... to me... are still looking for an excuse... to get out, or stay in.

The only excuse I am looking for is a reason to stay, once certain time constraints have passed. I try to give benefit of the doubt, hope that things get better, see some calms periods, only to see her spin out of control again.

If you want out, get out. Stop using your children as an excuse.

The children will remain the primary reason for a while longer.

Now. If you want to talk the variables of humanity, Corri can go there with you, with no judgments, as you take time to make your decision on whether you will honor your decision, or honor you impulse.

Not exactly sure what you mean by “variables of humanity.”

As long as you do it with FULL self-accountability. ….. What I DO care about... is if Cobra is true to Cobra.

I think I have resolve my accountability. I don’t blame my wife for her inabilities. It is just her, how she was raised, what she has become… Even the counselor thought W did not have the ability to overcome her fears and move forward. I think it is possible for W to change, but it will take a long time and will require someone other than me to help her.

Blackfoot,

My half brother use to pull his hair out on the front of his head around the age of 11, to the point where he looked like his hair was receeding. When his dad finally got him to explain why, the reason was 'to be like you, dad'. Sheesh.

Do you know there is actually a medical term for pulling hair? I don’t remember what it is but one of my daughter’s friends does this. She wears a wig. It is completely stress and anxiety driven, by her parents.

Your W may in fact be being Disrespectful to you, but its how you react and deal with it that he is going to copy. The better you handle someone elses disrespect, the more glaringly obvious it is to everyone, including the disrespector.

I agree in part, but when the disrespect goes on and on and on my son will lose it and so will I. To solve this problem there needs to be effort on both sides. Otherwise it becomes as matter of continually subjecting yourself to bully behavior.

I would like to understand better, what is going on in the second paragraph. I understand face saving in certain … However humiliation comes from damaged pride/ego. That is the dangerous part of narcissim IMO. I dont understand how failing to own, accept and yes apologize for (I said that) REAL WRONGS can do anything but create false ego. Im curiouis what your thoughts are.

I have no disagreement with what you said. I also agree with my wife’s position that S10, or anyone else for that matter, should own their stuff and apologize. That is the logical path. Reality is that anyone who is doing something wrong is probably not realizing it and is doing it for unconscious reason. That means he person is “flawed” in some way and also likely knows this and is avoiding the fact (unconsciously of course). Putting the issue in his/her face might not bother him/her, but then it might. If it does, then the person will have a wounded ego, feel humiliated. We see this on the board all the time.

The emphasis becomes how to approach the person, how to say things, and not so much the content of what you’re saying. My son has self esteem problems. How could he not? My wife further beating up on him will not make him feel more confident about himself, even if she can somehow convince him that he is a bigger person for it. He is a kid and he is wounded. So I try to address the situation and what he did wrong, even getting in his face if he resists, but to directly address what he did wrong so that he understands.

Then I deflect the issue off of him by depersonalizing it, maybe telling a story as an example. The Japanese do a very good job of this IMO. They do not directly confront one another but tell a story or fable as an example and then let the child think it over. It sort of puts the child and the parent on the same team in analyzing some issue and trying to understand it, rather than a parent versus child confrontation of wills and egos. I do notice a completely different result when I do this with my son. Does that make sense?

… it makes sense you would get really pissed off at any hint of your W shaming your son. Its both of your touchstones.

Bingo!

Its not going to be easy for you, OR her to get past that. Lets just say, she wont ever be able to.

Not likely.

Can you?

I think I can. The difference is that I can block out the past and how she has treated me or the kids before. She still has not resolved her past resentment and holds on to it like a life buoy.

Make sense now Cobra? If not, thats the best I can explain, and thats as far as I will discuss it.

Blackfoot, I don’t mean to have pushed the issue of your reconciling with your X because I thought you were only in some state of denial (though I thought there was some of that), but at the time, there is no way for the most enlightened person in the world to understand the ramifications of such a life shattering event. Even if you can figure out the lesson to be learned, there is still the matter of incorporating those lessons, the feelings, adjusting to the new you that is being reshaped from those very events. All that takes time. There are some situations where a person can look back and say, “I did all I could do.” There are lots of others times when a person can see things they could have done differently. For normal relationships, friends, acquaintances, etc, this may not matter. But IMO you had a “soul match” type of relationship, one which you may not find again. Who knows how things might have worked out. It is just a pity to see something like that slip through your fingers. Some of us get one shot at such a relationship. If it can work out, then you have the fairy tale marriage we al like to dream about.

another ex, My ego was humiliated by my rebreather tarfu, because of the witness factor. Ego. If I had been alone, I would have laughed it off, (as much as you can laugh off clinical death) and said thats almost all 9 lives dumbass.

I don’t know what you’re talking about. Are you saying you had a near death experience while diving?

I think humiliation is a good time to check your pride motivations, and examine who you are- compared to who your ego wants you to be. Im curious what you think humiliation means, and when and why saving face is neccesary.

Again, I agree, but for a child with low esteem, confrontation of weakness and faults needs to be built up gradually until there is enough strength to face each new mistake. It is really a matter of conditioning. The examples you gave are not the same as what I or my son have experienced. I understand how you lost something with your diving accident, but you also gained something. One thing I don’t think you experienced was shame and humiliation for others, maybe from yourself.

If you are conditioned to face shame and blame each time you screw up, you will grow to learn that mistakes are bad and will result in even more pain than the pain of knowing you made the mistake in the first place. It is literally rubbing salt in the wound. You did not receive that. You received comfort and compassion. Any salt you received came from you. There is a huge difference when it comes to conditioning, especially for a child who cannot control his surroundings.

So my position is that building self esteem is the most important thing for some people, and preventing an erosion of what little esteem they may have could be as important as learning humility. Once esteem is high enough, then humility is not such a big deal. So for my son, I see face saving as a very important step for him right now. Later it will be different.

Cobra:



I wasn't implying you were fantasizing about me. I knew it was going to come out that way, but I didn't know how else to say it, since you made the initial reference "I wish she had your insights."

I wish I had them, too, sometimes. It's lots easier on here, because we are writing... we have time to think through actions and responses. Applying insights IRL... is something different.
That's kind of what I meant.

I do try, and I try again... I don't know that it would be fair for anyone to say that someone else just isn't trying. Because I have been ACTIVELY working on this for nearly 15 years... I'm sure your wife thinks she is trying. To compare her to anyone else, to compare your M to any other... I personally think is a fruitless endeavor. It keeps you from seeing what is there, instead of what you WANT to be there. Kwis?



I believe that successful Rs are not built on 'love,' per se, and meeting each other's needs. I believe successful Rs are based on proficient and effective problem-solving.

Yes, my xH is a flawed man... just as I am flawed woman. But his flaws or state of health didn't make MY life harder. Our inability to effectively problem solve together was the fatal part.



Nod. I get this. I'm just saying, as an observation, not a criticism... that a lot of what you're saying sounds like your feelings of happiness and contentment, are, and will always be, based on the your wife's (or some other S.O) actions/behaviors... is that accurate?



No, that's not how it is with him. Not at all. I do and have felt all kinds of emotions with him. How we operate together is independent of those emotions. What you are referring to is cycle of behavior I am determined NOT to repeat... pursuing pleasure, avoiding pain... and having those associated emotions determine my thinking and actions.

Am I feeling giddy when we disagree? I doubt it... am I 'happy' when we disagree? Well... yeah... because 'happy' to me is a method of how I chose to operate in the world. A method of travel, not the destination itself. When I stay in that 'state,' I am a better problem-solver. So the act of disagreeing is no longer a 'painful thing to avoid,' no more than 'agreeing' with him provides 'he's the ONE' feelings.

Corri

P.S. I don't know if you read the post I made on my thread discussing an issue xH and I were having last week... I was not 'happy' during that... debate?... and it was quite a struggle for me. My emotions were running amok. But at least this time, I KNEW it, and my goal was to work back TO that 'happy' state... so I could solve the problem, and not let my emotions create another one.

Was he causing those emotions in me? Well, he was certainly part of the equation, and we humans are not completely independent of one another... was it his intent to cause those specific emotions? I doubt it. Even if it was, he doesn't have that much power. They are MY emotions. I identify them, I label them, I associate them... and I choose how much power to give them... or not. In that way, yeah, I am somewhat independent of him...

I'm doing this with my bf, I CAN do it with my xH, and it is something I am practicing with everyone in my life because it is how **I** want to be. Not saying anyone else SHOULD be this way.

It seems to me that you don't think you have the same ability to do this with your wife. If you don't want to, or don't agree with it, that's cool. I was just trying to explain to you a method I've learned and have been implementing recently that has made a huge different in my life... that MIGHT work for you... that's all. It doesn't really have to do with whether I'm married or not.

So, sorry if I sounded judgmental in any of my posts here to you.

Corri

Corri,

To compare her to anyone else, to compare your M to any other... I personally think is a fruitless endeavor. It keeps you from seeing what is there, instead of what you WANT to be there. Kwis?

Yeah, I hear you, but it also keeps me somewhat sane by focusing on how things should be, and that it is not all me. Sort of like fixing your gaze on the horizon when on a pitching boat at sea to help prevent sea sickness from looking too closely at everything immediately around you.

I believe that successful Rs are not built on 'love,' per se, and meeting each other's needs. I believe successful Rs are based on proficient and effective problem-solving.

I agree in part. I think those things you mention are prerequisites for the love to be expressed.

Yes, my xH is a flawed man... just as I am flawed woman. But his flaws or state of health didn't make MY life harder. Our inability to effectively problem solve together was the fatal part.

It’s all rolled together. Without his flaws (and yours), you would not have such a need to problem solve.

Nod. I get this. I'm just saying, as an observation, not a criticism... that a lot of what you're saying sounds like your feelings of happiness and contentment, are, and will always be, based on the your wife's (or some other S.O) actions/behaviors... is that accurate?

In large part yes, and especially where it concerns some who seems to be so lacking in relationship skills. IMO I don’t think I am dealing with a wife who falls somewhere in the “normal” distribution of the bell curve as it relates to relationship skills (others here are probably in the same situation too). I think my W is further into the outliers, in the tails of the bell curve. If I could just plop her back into the “normal” range, even to one edge of that range, problem solving abilities may be able to overcome so many of our problems.

No, that's not how it is with him. Not at all. I do and have felt all kinds of emotions with him. How we operate together is independent of those emotions. What you are referring to is cycle of behavior I am determined NOT to repeat... pursuing pleasure, avoiding pain... and having those associated emotions determine my thinking and actions.

OK, but implicit in your answer is the assumption that if things do not work out, you simply move on. No need to stress over things, just go find someone else. You know a committed relationship does not have such a low threshold for jumping from one relationship to another. If it did, I doubt many of us would feel the tug of emotion as we do.

….When I stay in that 'state,' I am a better problem-solver. So the act of disagreeing is no longer a 'painful thing to avoid,' no more than 'agreeing' with him provides 'he's the ONE' feelings.

Yep. But in your relationship, the consequence of not agreeing is low. Maybe you are hurt for a week or so, but you get over it. You find a new bf and the chemical rush obliterates all those hurts. Also, there is little consequence for your kids if you two split.

I'm doing this with my bf, I CAN do it with my xH, and it is something I am practicing with everyone in my life because it is how **I** want to be. Not saying anyone else SHOULD be this way.

I hear you. I do think that if you were back together with your ex, you could do this…. for a while. But if you have to keep it up for a long period of time, you won’t be able to stop feeling more and more defensive, at least wondering when you will have to go into your differentiation mode…. again. Plus, time has a way or slowly eroding hope and optimism, doesn’t it?

It seems to me that you don't think you have the same ability to do this with your wife.

Oh, I can and have done this with my wife. But it only results in a parallel life setting.

If you don't want to, or don't agree with it, that's cool. I was just trying to explain to you a method I've learned and have been implementing recently that has made a huge different in my life... that MIGHT work for you... that's all. It doesn't really have to do with whether I'm married or not.

The difference I see with your new life and my wife is that your bf is choosing to actively engage you. When you were mad at him some time back over golfing, HE is the one who apologized and asked you to play with him again. What if he reacted differently? What if he just said fine, we don’t need to ever golf together, essentially withdrawing back into his cave. No hard feelings, no arguments, no resentment. But then another situation or activity arose that you two decided to do independently. Build up several more of these and what do you have left? Still no hurt feelings, no resentment, but a severely weakened bond.

IMO, the fact that my W is an avoider and seems to find zero comfort in an emotional bond is what makes my marriage so difficult. It shuts off all possibility of compromise or negotiation. When only one person is trying to reach out, there are only three outcomes that I can see:

1) Settle for an EC that is comfortable for my W, but is less than what I want. Any more will cause her to withdraw.

2) Push to engage and work on the M. This means I am the one doing all the reaching, and it starts to look like I am the one who is codependent and needy, further throwing the relationship off balance and exacerbating the problems and responses.

3) Do not pursue. The lack of interaction will cause the relationship to die of natural apathy.

The advice given by DB and all other approaches is to go with 3) since 1) and 2) are obviously doomed to failure. But 3) requires the other person to re-engage. Just as Choc is finding out, his wife is really not wanting to withdraw and once the OM reaches a certain level of frustration, she runs back to the next best source of engagement, or enmeshment. But if she does not want any engagement but instead stays in her cave, where do you go?

So, sorry if I sounded judgmental in any of my posts here to you.

No, I haven’t picked that up at all. Thanks.

Well... I'm not a big believer in 'stay married at all costs.' I don't think that bailing when it gets 'tough' is the way to go either.



That simply isn't true, not when a bond exists between two people. And I am NOT after the chemical rush (tho I gotta say, it is a lot of fun while it lasts). There is a consequence for my kids... they know my bf and they like him... I don't want my home to become a revolving door of men, in and out of their lives.

By the same token, the consequences are low not because there is lack of emotion... but because the emotions aren't driving the bus.



I don't know that moving on is implied, and I sure as heck am not talking about relationship jumping, or even being absent of emotion. You get to feel it all. I am talking about the pursue/avoid nature of emotions, and when so lived, your live feels like that of a junkie... because some 'other' thing/person seems to have control of your life.

Getting a grip on emotions IS within your power. Taking considered action independent of them does not imply lack of care. I think it actually implies depth of care.



Yeah... what's your point? How does any of that have any relevance to what I've suggested to you? I'm not saying I live in a constant state of euphoria... uh... everyone here knows how I've struggled... my goal was, and has always been to get to this 'state' I ve been telling you about. I'm telling you how I got there... I'm off the SSRI's now... I've SLOWLY seen improvement in reaching my goal... and I can tell you, when I stay in this state... it doesn't stop my problems or my struggles... I just DEAL/ACT with it in a more level and constant state... which GREATLY enhances and improves how I enjoy my life (and all aspect of it, including my Rs).

You tell me you've accepted that your wife is as she is because of some very serious flaws you doubt she will ever be able to heal. Yet in the next breath... you seem mad and frustrated she won't work with you to improve things. That is very confusing to me...

... hence my suggestions to you.

Corri

Corri,

Yeah... what's your point? …. I'm telling you how I got there... I'm off the SSRI's now... I've SLOWLY seen improvement in reaching my goal...

My point is that the fact that your bf is who he is has been a help in you getting to where you are now. If you were still with your ex these past several months, do you think you would be off your SSRI’s even with the awareness you have learned?

You tell me you've accepted that your wife is as she is because of some very serious flaws you doubt she will ever be able to heal. Yet in the next breath... you seem mad and frustrated she won't work with you to improve things. That is very confusing to me...

Just because I accept something doesn’t mean I have to like it. I can’t erase the memories of how things were early in the M, or even with old relationships. Why is that confusing?

I want to ask a few more question regarding your description of how you felt you were in the center of the universe chair, in your other thread.

While sitting in that chair, I had no real understanding of the choices I was making, UNCONSCIOUSLY. It was always someone else's fault. Oh, sure, I could admit to being pouty or combative... didn't change anything, because I always felt powerless. (And I did that so I didn't have to make all those uncomfortable and painful changes... I wasn't steering my own ship, and I was always blaming other people for my ship sailing in waters I didn't want to be in. Yet. I was the one who refused to steer my own ship. Hmmmmm.)

Reading between the lines here, I suspect that you may have felt you were the one doing all the work, making all the sacrifices, thinking of others and not yourself, right? You were the woman’s version of the Nice Guy. So you learned to empower yourself and steer your own ship, and it seems you have not over-steered, but have been able to set a fairly balanced course.

The Nice Guy book warns against abusing the lure of power, that once you realize you have the ability to stand up for yourself, Nice Guys will sometimes go too far with that power and end up over-reacting out of resentment and abusing that new found power in order to get revenge. That “acting out” can take many forms. With my W, she completely withdraws and focuses only on her, focusing on her job and financial security. Nothing wrong with that per se, but when cooperation drops off the radar screen, and it starts to feel like she is in the M only for her needs, then it become an issue for me.

How did you come to open your eyes and see what you could not see before, and not over-react to the point of revenge? What allowed you to appreciate your ex’s point of view in order to give him room while still carving out space for yourself? What got you to realize you were in the C.U. chair?

My problem right now is that while I understand that both W and I have the right to steer our own ship, I do not have to like the path she is steering. She can steer as she likes and does not have to like my path, but if I want connection, then I had better take into consideration her likes and dislikes. Because she lives in her cave, she does not care (or thinks she cares) whether I like her path or not. Those are my emotions and they are not her problem. But there are her problem because my unhappiness will ultimately affect her happiness. In a marriage the two cannot be completely separated. We can accept the path the other is on, but we don’t have to like it.