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Bruce,

Many times a marriage has to be torn apart and taken back to ground zero before it can be rebuilt. This allows the relationship to be built on strong solid principles that most of us don't know the first thing about when we first get married. I know I didn't. I was naive enough to think that we would get married and that life would be great for the rest of our lives.

I believe that we are brought to points in our lives where the shell that we hide behind has to get torn down and we have to look at ourselves without any pretense. I believe that this allows us to move forward in our personal progression. Those who avoid this opportunity tend to spin in the wind either until they face themselves and their life or they spin aimlessly till they die.

Start looking at the people around you. As you go through this growth you will be able to recognize people who are on both ends of the spectrum. It is very enlightening once you start to understand what to look for.

My guess is that your wife like so many women looked to you (her husband)for her validation. I am guessing that she lost herself to the marriage. What so many fail to understand is that looking for validation of yourself as a person of worth from other people will always fail. You will always end up disappointed looking to outside sources to make you feel good about yourself. This doesn't just apply to her but to yourself as well.

Just remember that you have 17 years of issues to overcome. It is going to take a lot longer than 3 months.

There are many great resources out there to help you do this. Search for them. I don't know if you are religious or not but I truly believe that once you start searching God will lead you to the resources that you need. I know that he did for me. Also try to really understand where your wife is coming from. Understand her childhood issues, her dreams, her losses in life, etc. There is so much that we all tend to hide from everyone around us. After 17 years though I suspect that you know a lot about her and can probably piece together the information that you need.

Don't give up on your marriage. YOU alone can make a difference. You make the changes that you need to make and let you wife worry about her changes should she decide to make any. You are the only person that you can change or control but when you start living the changes in your life it changes the dynamic in your marriage and she will have to eventually change because the dynamic is changed.

Keep up the good work.

ST

Hey Bruce, what ST said.

IMP

Many thanks to all who have posted. Siren, those are wise words,and I needed to hear them. Thanks. I see so many things now that I was simply blind to in myself, her, and the relationship, or had only faint knowledge of. It's both liberating, in that you can't really solve a problem until you really understand it, and scary in terms of how much work there is for both of us as individuals and, hopefully, together. For all the pain of separation and an uncertain future, there are elements of real growth and, dare I say, "excitement" in having a whole new world open up to me.

Siren's words about coming into marriage with simplistic expectations are so true. As so many experts note, we're not given a manual, or a class, on relationships (at least most of us aren't!); I see know how I internalized "messages" from my parents' troubled marriage. They never divorced (my mother died when I was 14) but I never saw a real loving relationship between them.

Siren, you are also quite right about my W looking for validation externally. This has been her great psychic hole since childhood, and why I feel for all my sins this crisis is also bigger than my problems. She has never had much self esteem, despite being an immensely talented person in so many ways. Others saw her talents clearly; she regularly rushed to the "but it could have been better" or, when planning a party, "this is going to fail" type of statement that was programmed by her parents from an early age. Of course, the party would be a huge success. She's made great strides in this area recently, and I'm truly proud of her. But as you say, it doesn't happen quickly.

We need to rescript ourselves, and then hopefully rescript the marriage on a much deeper level and firmer foundation. I still believe this is possible, and I won't surrender. Thankfully, she has not talked divorce yet herself.

Make it a good day.

I just want to say "Thank You" for allowing me to read and learn from your valuable insights. I'm at the beginning of this rollercoaster ride and not been handling it well at all as an LBS. Somehow the logic of words must take its own time to internalize, but your post has really hit home!

HBT:

Get used to the rollercoaster ride; I'm still on it, but it does get "better," if I can use that word. The pain is always there, but it helps immensely to follow siren's advice that the only person you can work on now is yourself. Take a good hard look at yourself, no matter how strong the temptation is to simply blame your H. Michele put it best, as far as I've seen after reading dozens of books this summer, when she wrote that the problem is not that your spouse makes you unhappy, it's the way you interact. You (and I) are part of that equation, and it won't ever get better unless we own our part of the problems. You must remember that you want a new, better marriage. The old one is dead. Reconciliation without the hard work will fail. So roll up your sleeves and get busy!

I feel most spouses who drop the bomb (I feel this is true for my wife now, and probably is for spouse too) feel victimized (and they are if we are honest with ourselves), but can't yet see that they too played a role in the problems. It may take a long, long time for someone to get to that place, if they ever do. You can't control if/when they get there, so for now all you've got is yourself to examine and change. Remember that the changes you make are for yourself, no matter what happens. You cannot change just to get him back. Your changes must be real, and deep, and for yourself. Hopefully we will find ways to "attract" our spouses back. I'm convinced that's the only way. We can't force them back through pressure, guilt, or anything else. They will make a decision for themselves, as will we. We will have to decide as well whether we want them back. Everyone is/will be a different person as a result of this, maybe in ways they aren't aware of, and that's scary.

A very useful exercise I did a few weeks back is to write out (yes, write it out!) what you feel you can GIVE to a relationship, and what you NEED from a relationship. The lists may well mirror each other. You cannot have all your needs met by another person, but clearly a healthy relationship will meet many of them. I beat myself up pretty hard when I looked at all the ways I failed to give. But, and here was the key part in many ways, I also saw how my W didn't meet many of my core needs. For a while I bought into her paradigm of it all being my fault. Don't lose sight of that--you and I made many mistakes if we're honest with ourselves. But I've come to see that it's more complicated than that. I still think my W is in the "I'm the victim" paradigm, but unless you both explore how you failed to meet the other's needs a reconciliation, I feel, is going to fail. You will go back for the sake of going back, (if that chance comes) because it might feel better in the short run, but the foundation of a good relationship involves meeting your partner's needs and having your needs met. Now, if your H doesn't EVER see or acknowledge his role in failing to meet your needs, that's a serious problem. But, if that proves to be true, you/I need to ask ourselves the hard question of whether we really want to be with that person. Our spouses deserve better from us, but we deserve better from them. So, own your mistakes, but also dig inside to figure out what you need from him and be patient. Hopefully you will get to a point where you can talk about that. My W and I aren't there by any means, and it's damn frustrating. The road to a better marriage, if it exists, seems to get longer and harder the more I read, write, and talk to people.

Don't give up; try to avoid self-pity and practice all the DB techniques Michele writes about. There's not a lot we can do right now to change them; they need to change themselves and we need to change ourselves. Above all, DO NOT pressure him or try to guilt him back. If there's one rule that stands out from all the others I've read about, this is it. It's so hard because our pain is so great, but I agree that it will only drive them further away. Somehow I avoided this even before I started to read that it was a must. Perhaps my conflict-averse personality kicked in right at the start (I understand that part of myself better now) and saved me from blowing up in her face after she dropped the bomb. You MUST find a way to do the same. If you do make this mistake, you need to find a way to avoid it in the future. We all slip up, so don't worry too much about your mistakes and resolve to change the future. That's all we can do.

Instead, vent your hurt to yourself and your family and friends. Try journal writing. I've never done it until now, and I have written close to 300 pages since June. I take notes on what looks like good advice and let my feelings (both positive and negative) out. The other stuff Michele and others say really does help--take up a new hobby, meet some new people (no dating!), join a new organization. I joined a new church two weeks after the bomb exploded. I went on instinct, and it has been one of the two or three best things I've done all summer. Regardless of what happens to W and I, I have found a home that I have needed for a long time. The frustrating thing is I know the W and I would enjoy this together!

Take care of yourself physically, too. Exercise helps not just physically but mentally too. Don't just sit and brood, as tempting as that may be.

Reach out to friends and family in new ways. We are often hesitant to do so out of guilt or shame at our situation, but people will be so kind if you just let them. They may not need to know every detail (and probably shouldn't), but people generally are ready to help in ways that have truly astounded me. I feel so grateful for the wonderful surprises that have come my way from friends and family. I am closer to them as a result. That is a benefit no matter what the future holds.

Finally, consider finding a therapist if you don't have one. My wife asked me to go to a therapist for myself (not couples therapy; we probably should have been doing that but I suppose I would have refused until now) over the years, but I refused. Big mistake. No matter what happens with you and your H, if you find a good therapist you WILL be better off for it. Ask family and friends to recommend one. Finding my therapist has been a real blessing for me, no matter what happens to W and I.

I'm sorry you and I and others are in this boat. These boards are a real help. Is MLC part of the issue? Read up on that and anything else that is part of your situation. Gaining knowledge about your situation will help. Remember, your H is probably in a lot of hurt too, despite what outward appearances might seem. Take care.

Bruce,
Thank you so much for responding, I am grateful. I've been lost since he left and yes I do believe MLC is in the picture but he would deny it. I will fill you in if you will listen; but coincidently I'm off to my 1st C appt with a christian marriage counselor who also deals with step family issues-just wish h & I had done this a LONG time ago together. He refuses to go now even after he promised he would. I think he's trying to convince himself it is over now. I have posted on the MLC board, it is pretty pathetic I warn you, but please feel free to read up. I do value the input even though up til now it hasn't sunk in! I am trying, but having a hard time putting one foot in front of the other. I think I've lost myself somehow as I used to be very independent and self sufficient. There are so many dynamics which I don't have time to get into now, so I will check in later. Thanks again!

Bruce,
Also, before I read your thred, I posted in the 'separated, now what' forum. If you could comment...

Hey Bruce,
Just wanted to touch base. Thanks for the post on the other thred, I will definitely be looking into the book you suggested. Went to C yesterday; I didn't expect miracles but I felt dissappointed. Nothing learned or gained that I already haven't read or thought about. It just seemed like another person or stranger actually, listening to the most intimate details of my life. Very hard for me to open up and what supprised me the most was her expressed assumptions/opinions, just by what I was telling her. The jury is still out on that one.

Anyway, I do resonate with so much of your posts and have alot of soul searching to do. Coincidently, abandonment issues as well as a dysfunctional childhood has always played a part in my R's and has deeply affected my communication skills. These are things I have been thinking and reading alot about, trying to understand whay I am the way I am so to speak. I'm not going to make any excuses for my negative behaviors in the past and have already remedied so much of them.

So yes, I am taking a good look at my part in all of this mess and do take my responsibility for it. I am learning to change and have already made great strides. BTW, I love your suggestion about the give/need list, I think it is very insightful.

Now, socializing for me is quite a challenge. I have centered my world around my h and family and since I stopped working(an RN). I've done some volunteering at the schools but nothing social w/o my h. I am searching for a church and have already attended a service; we used to go as a family but haven't gone for a very long time now. I do feel drawn back and so need the strength. The last mass I attended I got alittle weepy though it, so I'm hoping for dry eyes the next time!

Just an update, my h came over toady w/ ss to watch college fb game, at first was supposed to stay the night but backed out- too much pressure I assume! He couldn't even stay the duration of the game as he kept escaping to our neighborhood friend's house several times. He now treats ss as if he's his best bud instead of father! HE wanted to talk and keeps apologizing, insisting there is no ow but I now find out he's been staying with a previous coworker whom I do not know. He is very confused and seems to be hurting deeply and is in a depression of sorts. He 'wants' to figure things out but keeps reitereating how he's sorry he 'cant'. I maintained a modicam of dignity even though I was dying inside at his confessions. I even told him I felt sorry for him that he was missing out on his family, the little things. He seemed concerned that I may start dating and stated if I did, that it would change everything! Is he projecting or what. I said I had no intentions but I am going to find things to do to socialize(he is and has been)! Him not being able to stand it to be comfortable in his own home or around ME is just torture!!

I too am sorry we all have to meet like this; but I do know this board has helped me tremendously through the most painful time in my life. I'm not giving up and value any and all input I recieve and read here! Thank you Bruce!! Your are a good soul!Peace...

HBT:

Thanks for an update on your situation. I am so sorry to hear this; you don't deserve this, no matter what problems you have to work on. None of us does.

Regarding the C, you are right to be skeptical. Don't just assume that a C always knows best, or is the best fit for you. If you are unhappy with how things are going, don't hesitate to find another. It's easy for people to defer to "experts" but you have to get what you need.

Keep trying on the church/social scene. It's so important to find a new group of friends. It doesn't happen overnight, but the key is to never give up. Keep plugging. The old cliche about getting friends by being one is so true. People are much more interested in you when you show interest in them, so take the first step! Not all will work out, but some will. Our society is full of people yearning for connection. There was a study released a few months ago showing that the typical American has only about 2 friends outside of family; many have fewer than that.

Your H sounds deeply depressed and confused, to say the least. I don't know what to say about that except what may be the hard reality, as far as I can tell. You probably already "know" this but it doesn't make it any easier--you can't fix him. He needs help, but he sounds a long way off from realizing that, if he ever gets to that point. In the meantime, all you can do is decide how patient you are willing to be. Only you can make that call as each of us is different in our needs. I wouldn't listen to anyone who tells you "walk out now" or "wait for ____" Only YOU can decide what is right for you. I've read that at times like this, one partner has to be willing to carry almost the entire load of the marriage, and that is hard when we are being treated like this. I have many times when I ask myself "when does patience become foolishness?" I still don't have an answer to that question, but I ask it regularly.

Nancy Wasson has some stuff that has helped me understand what seems to be going on with WAW and how to handle separation, so you might find her work helpful too. Also try Terrence Real's book How Can I Get Through to You? He's got some terrific stuff about how men and women are socialized, and how it creates all sorts of problems. Some of the men I've read about in that book sound similar to your husband. Reading about these situations may not bring our spouses back, but at least it helps me understand what's going on with myself and what seems to be going on with my W. I find that empowering. These changes we are working on are for ourselves to be better people, and if we get our spouses back into a better relationship then that is a bonus. But the main purpose must, and can, be only ourselves.

Remember that you want a better marriage, not the old one, and to get a better marriage you and I need to change ourselves. That's only one piece of the puzzle, as we can't force our spouses to stay married to us. We can try to influence them, but that is all we can do. Be careful about trying to influence your H right now. You are so early in the process of separation, as painful as its been for you. When W and I separated I thought by three months (where we are now) we'd be either divorced (there's my abandonment fears!) or working together. We're neither--we're in limbo. I still believe in the possibility of a good marriage with her, and so despite the pain I'm standing for the marriage and not walking out. The more I read, and the more I reflect on the complexities of the issues between us, the longer off any reconciliation appears. That's hard for me to take, but to solve a problem one must first accurately diagnose it. You may be in the same boat, so try to steel yourself for a long, bumpy, and painful ride.

I'm glad you shared your point about abandonment. I HIGHLY recommend you read Joel Block's book Broken Promises, Mended Hearts. It's one of the 3 or 4 best books I've read all summer (I've read about 35!). My abandonment issues come from losing my mother to breast cancer when I was 14, and having a father who has never really been there emotionally for me. As a result, I've been extremely self reliant in many ways, and I see now how this created distance in my marriage. Block notes that people who lose a parent early in life often have trouble developing trust as adults. He's a really smart guy--much deeper stuff than a lot of the self help books out there.

I applaud you immensely for working on yourself and recognizing that you have things to take ownership of. That is one of the essential pieces to a successful relationship, whether that be with your current H or someone else. You must do what you can for yourself, recognizing that you played a role in the problems, but so did he. Look closely at yourself, but don't fall into the trap of totally blaming yourself. He has his stuff too, and only he can decide if he wants to fix it. I don't believe we can drag anyone to counseling. They have to want to do it themselves. We feel so helpless, but I'm convinced that we can only drive them further away by trying to "fix" things. Distance, patience, and support when you can find the opportunity. Don't try to force conversations on him, don't look pitiful in front of him, and don't try to guilt him back with "I can't believe you did this to me!" Let him be, as hard as that is to do.

One more resource I've found helpful. Dr. Robin Smith has opened my eyes to so much about not only my marriage, but life in general. I listen to her radio show (only available on XM satellite, I believe, but you can get an online subscription for about $6 a month so you can listen only on your computer). She's on the Oprah channel at 9am, 3pm, and 9pm EST (same show repeated three times a day). Her book Lies at the Altar is also very good.

Take care, and keep updating if you would like. We're here for you. Do something nice for yourself today.