I think what is important to healing is personal. It may mean that he gives enough details so you know he is not hiding things from you. Or so that you feel like you can trust him again. May be it is knowing how it started so you know it won't start again. May be it is knowing what OW's attractiveness is so you can work to improve yourself (though may be it does not matter). It's reaaly what is the most important stuff to YOU.
Then it is how much he is willing to give. Mine won't give me much details. (just had an argument about THAT!!!) Somehow there needs to be a balance between what he can give and what you can get. The rest, are you willing to live by not knowing? Also, it may take time. Granted if H is still feeling guilty towards OW, or may be not feeling 100% open to you, it may take a long time to get all the details.
This is a really hard part. i have no secrets that i cannot share with H. It feels really bad that he is keeping things from me. He claimed he is spending 100% of energy on me now. I told him if that's the case, don't contact OW!!! Somehow he cannot do that. I am waiting.....
It's kind of nice to know I'm not alone in my frustration and "obsession" to know the details. I would really like to have the situaiton as described in "Not 'Just Friends.'" The book uses the analogy of a house with windows and walls. The spouses have open windows between themselves (open communication and no secrets) and walls between people outside the marriage. That way the openness and intimacy is within the marriage. In an affair the windows are open to the OP while the walls are set up between the spouse.
I worry that he's always built walls up to me (he's never been the most open communicator), but was able to share his most intimate thoughts and secrets with OW.
There is no arriving, ever. It is all a continual becoming.
I always think it's easier to say things to people who are not going to be affected by what you say. Those can be people you are very close to but even so, people who do not have any responsibility or who do not feel there will be repercussions which affect them.
Maybe your H talked to OW freely about certain aspects of his life / feelings as she was not invested so heavily in him or him in her.
When my M was in trouble, but before I was told by my H about his A, I would talk to good friends about what I felt but I would not talk to my H. He was too close and involved. It was my eventual opening up and sharing of my innermost feelings that ultimately caused my H to tell me about his A and then come back to me emotionally. We both had to stop keeping secrets to make it work. I still struggle with this side of our R even today. I do not like confrontation and so find it easier to keep quiet about things in case there will be dischord. I have to force myself to open up but I am SLOWLY learning that it is better. It's 'hard to teach an old dog new tricks' as the saying goes. It takes time and trust and an atmosphere of safety. The trouble is the two things, (trust and safety), go hand in hand which is why for me it is a slow process.
My husband is not by nature secretive and finds it hard to understand how I am about this. I think it is because he is not naturally secretive that he found it relatively easy to tell me all the details about his A. He is also quite forgetful about personal details and so finds it hard to be deceitful as he can never remember what he has said/ done in the past. I guess the fact that he was able to keep an A secret for 18 months was a measure of his desperation!!
Do you think your H feels 'safe' or do you think he may be worried that what he say's might be used against him at some point in the future? Has that happened to him in the past?
Just a few thoughts
Saffie
Saffie me 46 H 46 M in 1986 D20,D18,S16,D13 H's A 01/05 to 07/06 H recommitted to M 07/06 renewed vows 09/06 Going from strength to strength
You sound like you are where Saffie and I were a few months ago when we both came to this board. Here are links to our threads from that time. I think they speak to the issue you are dealing with.
Since we were talking about the same thing at the same time, we did more of the talk on Saffie's thread, but I think there's a lot of good stuff on both of them.
Has your H returned or is he still with OW? Are you in piecing or trying to deal with the infidelity and rejection?
You responded on my original thread a few times with your wise words. I feel I lack the wisdom to help you here, (if any help is required).
Have you thought about writing out a list of any unanswered questions you have? I know it won't be definitive as any answers you get may lead on to other questions, but it may be a starting point.
It may get you to focus on the outstanding issues and decide if they are so important that you need to clarify them or whether you can lay them to rest by yourself.
I don't know what I would have done if my H hadn't been forthcoming - murder would have most likely taken place by now - not sure whether it would have been OW's or H's.
I'm sorry I am not more help.
Saffie
Saffie me 46 H 46 M in 1986 D20,D18,S16,D13 H's A 01/05 to 07/06 H recommitted to M 07/06 renewed vows 09/06 Going from strength to strength
"Do you think your H feels 'safe' or do you think he may be worried that what he say's might be used against him at some point in the future? Has that happened to him in the past?"
Saffie, Absolutely!!!! We have gone through this before and it was a nightmare for him.
My husband had a very short (1 month), EA with some "making out, but no sex" right after our second child was born (over 10 years ago). This was the "post-baby affair" which is one of the common times for men to have affairs because they feel displaced by the kids and all the attention they require. He ended it quickly (on his own before I even knew about it) but I went totally ballistic!!!! I threw him out of the house, ranted and raved, and made his life miserable for at least two years. I basically drilled and pounded out all the information, then made him feel like $hit about it.... so... the fact he doesn't want to give me details makes sense. He fears a situation like that occuring again.
This second affair was the MLC "exit affair." When it began, I realized something was going on. I think he felt guilty and trapped (and truly had been questioning the marriage prior to meeting OW), so he filed for divorce quickly. Technically, in some ways I can't call it a full-blown affair because the bulk of it occured after the divorce was filed.
Sara, My husband is "back." He finally realized he didn't want the divorce ($20K later) and stopped it. The thing with OW fizzled. She was married and lived in another state so the relationship was potentially doomed from the start. Although I may have had a part in destroying my husband's relationship with her because I did tell her husband about them. (That was an A-bomb!!!). I'm definitely piecing... mostly trying to fit together all the pieces of the puzzle that occured. This whole thing changed me dramatically. I think mostly in very good ways... but I worry that reconnecting (on my side) is difficult and I don't want to fall off that cliff again. Trying to stay strong... and trying to have a great marriage after all.
I don't want what happened after that first A to happen again. I definitely don't want to put him through that nor myself. It was difficult for everyone involved and my nuttiness and behavoir only made things worse. On the other hand. That was over 10 years ago. I was a very different person. A very young and idealistic wife. I do have a lot more understanding, I'm MUCH less selfish. If I thought not talking about it would help. I would do that, but I find sometimes, because I don't know certain details (how long, how deep, how it ended and why) will pop out and haunt me.
Manwithaheart, Yes, I think you are right. Sometimes you have to know, but at the same time it hurts and may take a long time to get over those details. I remember that first affair used to bother me. I had a lot of visual details (forced from husband!), but the nice thing is I can think about any of them now and they mean absolutely nothing. 10 years later it's like the first one didn't even happen. It really seems extremely remote.
Interestingly, this second A has been MUCH easier to get over than the first one. I was a raving lunatic back then!!!!
Well... I think I'll actually share some of these responses with my husband so he can realize how others have that need to know as well. He just can't understand why I can't let the whole thing go. It's soooo over according to him. I'll hide the names of the site and people because I don't want him to visit this site. He knows I go to a site with "people trying to get over infidelity and create strong marriages," but he has never actually seen it.
Anyhow, thanks for all your ideas and opinions. They do help tremendously. Just "discussing" this all makes me feel better.
There is no arriving, ever. It is all a continual becoming.
The first time you must have been a bag of hormones on legs, as well as all the other things that go with A's. I salute you.
O hope I never have to deal with a second time - even if it's easier.
It seems to me that if you want / need all the details you are going to have to create an atmosphere where he feels safe with telling you. He needs to know that altho' he will see you hurt, because I believe that undoubtedly it will hurt you, it is something that will ultimately let you heal and move on. Show him the books with the sections explaining it - you know which ones they are - you told me about them when I first came to these boards.
Good Luck and let us know how you got on.
Saffie
Saffie me 46 H 46 M in 1986 D20,D18,S16,D13 H's A 01/05 to 07/06 H recommitted to M 07/06 renewed vows 09/06 Going from strength to strength
Unfortunately, I don't think he'll ever feel safe. It's funny, but even when the affair was starting up, and I *knew* it was happening, felt it occurring, and he was starting to get frantic (he knew that I knew). There was one time before he moved out and filed for divorce where he said he could never go through what had happened before. It broke him down and changed him. At that time I tried to prepare him to feel safe in opening up to me and even telling him I was older, wiser and much better at dealing with things. I think I also displayed this. I used to joke to my friends that I felt like a saint!
But I did get really angry about 3 or maybe 4 times. And perhaps those destroyed any chance of him feeling secure. At this point, by the time he does feel secure (if ever!), it will be 5 years from now and he'll have forgotten everything that happened. He generally has a poor memory for anything that isn't numerical or scientific.
There is no arriving, ever. It is all a continual becoming.
he'll have forgotten everything that happened. He generally has a poor memory for anything that isn't numerical or scientific.
I got one of those men too!!!
Maybe you should be straight with him and say that you realise he may find it difficult to go through now but you have a list of questions - which you will give to him - and you would appreciate if he could try jotting something down whilst it was still fresh in his memory, so that when he did feel safe to give it to you he could do so.(If he so wanted).
My husband found at times that it was easier to email me answers to questions so that I would have had time to think about a response before I saw him. There are times when he and I act better for seeing things written down in black and white. I think when we read it back it gives us a chance to consider not only content, but tone. Does that make sense?
It's all just so personal, what works and what doesn't. I guess I am just trying to throw a few ideas into the mix.
to lighten your day I will tell you something stupid I did regarding emails the other day. When on myspace I imported my contact list and accidentally sent an invite to nearly everyone in it asking them to be my friend. I only went and sent one to my H's OW as I had emailed her some time ago when things were heated - oops!! LOL
Saffie
Saffie me 46 H 46 M in 1986 D20,D18,S16,D13 H's A 01/05 to 07/06 H recommitted to M 07/06 renewed vows 09/06 Going from strength to strength
