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It's definitely true that being able to differentiate is related to self-respect or as BB said, it is related to your ability to overcome any shame you feel about yourself. Therefore, the reason it is pretty much impossible to find a fully differentiated person is that it is pretty much impossible to find a person free of shame or fully self-respecting. I don't think you can simply adopt the attitude "Here I am. Love me warts and all." either. I think the best most of us can do is to fill in the margin where we fail at self-respect with self-acceptance instead of denial. For instance, I don't respect the fact that I ate 3 cookies for breakfast this morning (Although I might justify it with the fact that I lost some weight and I plan on doing my new dance workout dvd this afternoon- lol) but I accept that I have a weakness when it comes to cookies. If somebody had walked into the kitchen and mildly dissed me by saying something like "Cookies for breakfast, tsk, tsk." it wouldn't bother me because I fully accept the fact that I don't deserve respect for cookie-resisting-will-power. I might even appreciate the comment because it would signal me to put the rest of the freakin' cookies in the freezer.

For instance, I don't respect the fact that I ate 3 cookies for breakfast this morning ...but I accept that I have a weakness when it comes to cookies.

How funny! I just wrote Raven saying that I had eaten the brownies (that this hotel leaves in your room) late last night. I don't particularly LIKE that I ate them but since I had gone on a 6 mile run last night, I woke up not feeling badly at all.

Therefore, the reason it is pretty much impossible to find a fully differentiated person is that it is pretty much impossible to find a person free of shame or fully self-respecting.

I agree but then again it's pretty impossible to find a fully enmeshed disrespecting person too. I think the problem is that when we talk about human characteristics we have to talk in generalities. Like I am a person with good "shame proneness" but that doesn't mean I don't experience shame. I also think I am fairly well differentiated but that doesn't mean that I do not have moments of fused or enmeshed behaviors. I do think that my overall differentiated being helps with identifying enmeshed behaviors/feelings more quickly so that I don't dwell in fused behavior.

I use my weight and diet issues as an example. OVERALL I am healthy and active. That doesn't mean that I eat perfectly 100% of the time and that I work out every day. if I used that as a goal, then I would have to "beat" myself up for failing every day. Instead I look at my overall diet and exercise over a week or even month so that one bad choice does NOT define me. I ate brownies last night but instead of dwelling in that place and eating brownies again today, tomorrow and the rest of the week, I will just go back to my normal healthy eating habits.

I don't think you can simply adopt the attitude "Here I am. Love me warts and all." either.

Hmmm. I guess it depends on how you fully define that attitude. I look at it as "Here I am. I have my weaknesses and issues like everyone. These are things that I acknowledge but that I am working on. I do want to become a better person but I am not there yet. If you can accept my weaknesses and live with them, great. If not, I can accept that too. Just try to be honest with yourself about your wants in a relationship."

I can be indecisive especially when I am tired, stressed and overwhelmed. I am working at improving that and understanding that issue. I don't expect (or even want) Raven to LOVE that about me. But he does have to be honest with himself that I can be that way and figure out if he can handle it without getting too aggravated and without personalizing my indecisiveness.

Does that make sense???

Where I see the value of a partnership, as with the Golden Rule, or differentiation... IS the fact that we are not all 100% differentiated. But if you are in any kind of R where someone has a real solid sense of it, and practices it... you will see your own attempts at fusion when you do it, and you see it pretty quickly. The vulnerability and intimacy comes in when you claim your own behavior, adjust course, and watch as the other person doesn't bash you and trash you for it. They just stand there and smile at you for 'getting it.' And, you'll do the same for them.

That is the coolest feeling in the world.

If you are with another person who doesn't really get it, or has never really heard of it, the act of you practicing it to the best of your abilities, will get their attention and respect. They will begin to mirror your behavior. But as with everything in the world, there are some people who will never get it, simply because their wounds are too deep.

Then you can decide what you want to do. If you leave, however, it isn't to 'get back' at the other person somehow. It really has nothing to do with them at all. It is simply a decision you made that is best for you.

Corri

But as with everything in the world, there are some people who will never get it, simply because their wounds are too deep.

I am not sure I believe that people will never get it because their wounds are too deep. I think the deepness of the wound is much less of an issue and the bigger issue is whether a person is even aware of being wounded. If you don't know you are wounded, then how can you heal yourself??

I also think that what happens is much of the time is that when others sense your wound (if they are fusing/enmeshing type personalities) they will try to "care" for the wounds which in turn don't allow them to heal because the wounded person does not become fully aware of they are wounded.

Just my thoughts...

Fearless,

I think the deepness of the wound is much less of an issue and the bigger issue is whether a person is even aware of being wounded.

This is simply not true. People who have been severely traumatized can come to know their wounds through counseling or whatever, but still, getting over those wounds can be next to impossible.

It's really kind of interesting to me how my issues with food and dieting have for the most part disappeared since my marriage ended. I don't really overeat much and I don't really diet. I'm not overweight but I'm not particularly thin but I don't really want to be any thinner. I workout regularly but I judge my success more by how my body/mind is feeling/functioning ( I finally got me some triceps. Yay!) than whether I've been disciplined in terms of frequency. Clearly a lot of the fusion in my marriage was being manifested in my body. My sex drive really has gone down too. These days I'm sometimes actually kind of surprised by my hunger or my horniness. Like I'll go over to NG's house and he'll give me a big plate of tofu curry and 6 orgasms and when I enjoy it all, I think "Wow, I must have been hungry/horny!"

I think an important thing to remember is that, at least superficially, sometimes it is the less differentiated person who chooses to leave, usually in a fit of avoidant fusion. I think the more differentiated partner is always the one who is simply calmly stating their preferences and maintaining their boundaries. I feel like I was doing a good job of stating my preferences at the time my marriage ended but not so hot a job of maintaining my boundaries and that is why I still had fusion to play out afterwards.

Fearless: I think the deepness of the wound is much less of an issue and the bigger issue is whether a person is even aware of being wounded.

Cobra: This is simply not true. People who have been severely traumatized can come to know their wounds through counseling or whatever, but still, getting over those wounds can be next to impossible.

You might be right. I may be too much of an optimist. It is hard for me to believe that some people are simply doomed to being so irrevocably and deeply wounded that they can never be healed.

But I fully admit that I could be wrong with my thinking and that I might just be too optimistic!!

Only if you choose to be hurt by a negative reaction.

If that's the case then what's happening is separate from validation.

If the reaction is positive, then why not suck it all up, as long as you can keep your ego under control!

If I have my ego under control I have no need to suck it all up.

If I only believe the positive things somebody says about me and ignore any negative things they may say...how is that really any different from self-validation? I've clearly taken it upon myself to discern which of the things they say will have meaning for me and which won't. I've essentially taken them out of the loop and am making all the decisions myself.

So how is, "I'm only going to take to heart the positive things you say about me," different from or better than, "I accept myself as I am and am happy with that"?

Burgbud,

I've clearly taken it upon myself to discern which of the things they say will have meaning for me and which won't. I've essentially taken them out of the loop and am making all the decisions myself.

So does this mean that you maintain a certain wall, certain level of detachment? It sounds to me that by taking the others out of the loop, you are removing any emotional connection and focusing only on the intellectual facts in order to make the decision for yourself. How do you think the other person feels about that? How close do you think they want to get to you? Could that be what some of the ladies in your square dancing class are picking up from you?

Let’s assume that is the case. IMO the mere fact that you noticed a difference and bothered to mention it tells me it is niggling in the back of you mind. Maybe no big deal now. But if in another intimate relationship, it could be.

So how is, "I'm only going to take to heart the positive things you say about me," different from or better than, "I accept myself as I am and am happy with that"?

Then why do the ladies that seem distant to you bother you?