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Cobra



I think that that describes not differentiation but dissociation.

Martelo,

I don't think you can properly differentiate without dissociation or detachment. The detaching part of differentiation is to become non-reactive, or to accept the issues or problems of the other person as his/hers, and know the difference between that and what is yours, right? The rest of differentiation is "holding on to yourself" to handle whatever anxiety arises. I see both of these parts as blocking or suppressing emotional connection between two people, out of fear of being hurt. That can't be the type of emotional bond so many of us want.

But my point is that other-validation per se is NOT bad.

Again are we talking about other-validation in that we choose to surround ourselves with people that appreciate, like, and/or love us OR other-validation as a substitute for self-validation? Of course I think it is good to have people appreciate you. What I don't think is good is to use other-validation as a way to "make" yourself feel good about yourself.

In fact, there should not be anything wrong with it if both people could be trusted to hold up their end of the validation duty.

So in this example a husband and wife would make it their duty to make the other happy?

The problem comes during times of stress when people revert to the dysfunctional defense systems they learned in their past (which is why understanding your FOO is so important).

While I completely agree that understanding FOO is useful and important, I don't think that this is the only reason that people cannot other-validate enough in times of stress. Let's say my mom is in the hospital recovering from a brain tumor and is in IC for months at a time and I am taking engineering courses and visiting her at the hospital every weekend. Wouldn't that alone be enough to distract me from being able to prop by boyfriend up? Forget having any FOO issues to deal with.


When this happens one person stops validating the other and instead focuses on self protection.

Yes, taking care of yourself a la putting the oxygen mask on FIRST when you are on the plane IS the "right" thing to do.

THAT is the problem with other-validation. The system is unstable

Yes, I agree that other-validation is unstable because I believe it is HEALTHY for it not to be stable. Since I know my wants and needs best, shouldn't I be the best one to take ownership of meeting those wants and needs.

because people are imperfect.

I do have to agree that people are imperfect. And definitely relying on others to completely take care of your feelings and validation is not a stable situation.

Martelo:



I would disagree. Immunity and choice do not necessarily imply disassociation. IF you can accept immunity as a measure of 'level of susceptibility,' then immunity implies that YOUR state will not affect MY state, unduly. That does not mean I am not empathetic to it. It just means I not willing to roll in your sh!t with you... but by all means, please, have a merry time while you are there. Or, if you are unhappy, let me stand, quiet, next to you, for support, while you regain yourself.

My standing next to you, while you regain yourself, is a CHOICE. It has nothing to do with 'love.'

If you are happy, let me not steal it from you, or try to make it my own. If I do, hopefully, you can stand still, and accept and own your happiness, while I hopefully face myself. For you are no less worthy of happiness than any other being, including during a time when I am trying to 'steal' it from you.

Corri

I don't think you can properly differentiate without disassociation or detachment. The detaching part of differentiation is to become non-reactive, or to accept the issues or problems of the other person as his/hers, and know the difference between that and what is yours, right? The rest of differentiation is "holding on to yourself" to handle whatever anxiety arises. I see both of these parts as blocking or suppressing emotional connection between two people, out of fear of being hurt. That can't be the type of emotional bond so many of us want.

I think you are looking at differentiation from the wrong direction. Detaching and disassociating are part of fusion and NOT differentiation. They are how someone who fuses deals with a fused situation.

You don't become non-reactive to be differentiated. When you are differentiated, then you become less reactive.

I do find myself personally drawn into this because I think I am fairly well differentiated (still working on it)and yet I am emotionally connected to many people (still working on this too). I don't see these as mutually exclusive issues. In Lillie's list that describes differentiation, I think it is clear that differentiation allows for MORE emotional connection rather then less. So there is nothing to fear about differentiation reducing emotional connection.

Fearless,

Again are we talking about other-validation in that we choose to surround ourselves with people that appreciate, like, and/or love us OR other-validation as a substitute for self-validation? Of course I think it is good to have people appreciate you. What I don't think is good is to use other-validation as a way to "make" yourself feel good about yourself.

Either one. If there was no risk of the other-validation not coming through whenever it was needed, would it make a difference if it were from people who admire you or just to make yourself feel good? If there were NO risk or consequence, what would be wrong with that?

My point is that I do not believe giving validation to others is bad per se. It is the consequences of that validation that is the problem. This may be splitting hairs to some, but I think it is a critical difference for moving toward interdependence.

So in this example a husband and wife would make it their duty to make the other happy?

Technically I see no problem with this, IF both people were truly able to hold up their end of the duty. But as your example of your sick mother shows, this is not realistic. Yet is the other-validation really the problem or is it the inability of us human to reliably provide it?

Yes, taking care of yourself a la putting the oxygen mask on FIRST when you are on the plane IS the "right" thing to do.

Maybe in a life or death situation, but in relationships I do not agree. The problems the triggers so many fights in marriages seem to have a common theme – that one person is not validating the other on one way or another. As in your example it may be more than humanly possible for a person to do. But I am not sure I see a problem with other-validation per se.

Yes, I agree that other-validation is unstable because I believe it is HEALTHY for it not to be stable. Since I know my wants and needs best, shouldn't I be the best one to take ownership of meeting those wants and needs.

I don’t know that this is necessarily true. You may know your own wants and needs best, but if communication is open and you are willing to express yourself freely, then over time each partner can come to know one another intimately and quite thoroughly. Think of the old married couple who are as one unit, soul mates, in which one knows what the other thinks and what their likes and dislikes are. Is that such a scary model? Is that something to not strive for? I can see this may not be something for everyone. In fact, I think it would be tough to find the right match to make this work, but for me, it is an interesting idea and an objective that bridges a lot of what I would like in a relationship.

I do have to agree that people are imperfect. And definitely relying on others to completely take care of your feelings and validation is not a stable situation.

That is the point of my questioning… does it have to be unstable? Is there another way?

Cobra I understand your pov but you have to look at something like the hugging until relaxed exercise of Schnarch to see an example of differentiation and engagement.

Differentiation doesn't preclude feelings of compassion or understanding.

Taking the detachment too far gets into the realm of isolation and repression.

Fearless,

I think it is clear that differentiation allows for MORE emotional connection rather then less. So there is nothing to fear about differentiation reducing emotional connection.

I don’t think that is what is meant by more emotional connection. The greater connection comes about precisely by what I am saying, that two differentiated people can stand on their own independently without leaning on one another (as a conscious choice to be close) and not worry about whether the other will pull out his/her support. The lack of that fear is what allows greater emotional connection. Fear limits connection.

You don't become non-reactive to be differentiated. When you are differentiated, then you become less reactive.

Maybe, but what lesser amount of reactivity is sufficient? The ideal is to not react at all and accept the other person as s/he is, as Corri states. Anything else implies judgment of some level, or you wouldn’t react in the first place, right?

I think emotional connection is the opposite of fusion. The point that Schnarch makes that you will really grieve somebody when they die if you aren't fused makes sense. Here's a simple example. A woman is freaking out with fusion because she thinks that a guy she was dating has rejected her because he hasn't called in a week. She finds out that he was in a car accident and instead of being upset she is relieved because it means that she wasn't rejected. She would be just as fused if instead of feeling cr*ppy about being rejected she was more avoidant and just decided that he was a jerk after 5 days with no call. You can see that with either pole of fusion her emotional reaction to the fact of his auto accident is not going to be caring or emotionally connected. The appropriate non-fused response to not receiving the phone call is to simply behave/react in whatever you believe to be the most respectful and kind manner to another human being who has freedom to call you or not. If you make a choice in alignment with your values and own high self-esteem in that regard then you will have nothing to regret except your unavoidable lack of knowledge of the actual situation.

If the thing CeMar wants more than anything on earth is to be in a relationship with a woman more desirous than his wife then it is true that on some level he wishes his wife were dead or at least disappeared. IMO, that's not a very emotionally connected way to feel.

Martelo,

I understand your point and the hugging till relaxed exercise. But that is part of my criticism with Schnarch. He allows little room for other–validation for really dysfunctional couples. Look at Heywire’s H. There is absolutely now way he can come to hold onto himself. Now way. If Heywire tries this, he will feel completely abandoned and walk out of the marriage. Choc tried it too.

Differentiation doesn't preclude feelings of compassion or understanding.

True, for sufficiently healthy people. For dysfunctional people it does, at least in their mind, and the road to recovery is all about impressions and perception, so this is very important.

Taking the detachment too far gets into the realm of isolation and repression.

Yes, that was part of my point.