Why would you ever look to others for validation? Only because you believe you're not good enough. Somewhere, somehow, some amount of shame has crept into your psyche and decided that you're not good enough unless and until somebody else says that you are. In the case of sex, it's then very easy to cling to a person who provides that validation in hopes they'll continue to validate you until the day you die, and if they ever stop...you're in trouble.
Perhaps this is just a quibble but I might argue that although it is absolutely necessary to self-maintain a high level of validation, it isn't necessarily necessary to achieve it in a vacuum. When I was a teenager I was a rebel/nerd living in a conservative rural small town. One day at the library I came across Harpers magazine and I was so excited and validated because I realized that there were people who thought like me out there but I haven't had to constantly subscribe to Harpers ever since then in order to maintain that level of validation. I find sex with NG quite validating because he is like me sexually. (We're both total "show-offs" - lol ) but I don't feel like I would have to keep having sex with him forever to maintain the feeling of validation that I got from having sex with him that it's okay to be a bit of a sexual show-off because there are others out there. In fact, I think the experience will make me better able to be sexual with men who are less "cocky" because I feel less like I have to assert my right to be as "female equivalent of cocky' as I am.
Another minor point I might bring up is I wonder how one can possibly separate the desire for sexual validation from the desire for positive arousal feedback? For instance, if a guy says to me "God, that made me rock hard." it's going to give me a little kick in the ego center of my psyche but it's also going to give me quite a big kick down a bit lower. So, is my motivation the relevant factor or my confidence going into the encounter? Also, how can this really be the case given the fact that when I'm being sexual I'm usually a bit too much into the moment or flow to be thinking "If I make Move A, I am quite confident than he will respond with Arousal Enhancing Statement B, so I shall be making Move A in order to enhance my own arousal although of course I may reap the minor benefit of ego validation."
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Okay, I thought about it and I changed my mind. You do have to self-validate but once you self-validate others will give you confirmation which might superficially seem exactly like other-validation but it isn't because you already self-validated. The "other" is just mirroring back what you are already projecting. This is so clear to me when I think about my bizarro dating experiences over the last 5 months. However, maybe there's just a little room for seeking other-validation within the realm of curiosity. Like I put my dating portrait up on the internet and I was curious to see what kind of response I might get but not quite confident that I would get a good response. Maybe if you are just curious about the reaction or response you might get from others that is okay because you are just seeking information rather than validation because you really just want to know if the jeans make you look fat and you're really not looking for someone to validate that they don't.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Is that something you're willing to try, Cemar? Masturbation without porn or fantasy, just for the sake of making yourself feel good? I MB every day, most days several times. Heck, easily 99% of the sex I have, my wife isn't even present. Not sure what the point is here though. Orgasams are nice. But why compare MB with passionate sex? That apples and oranges, there is absolutely not comparison. Desire is the goal. Even if we say that sex is NOT being used for validation, the feeling of having passionate sex with a truly desirous women is impossible to replicate in any other way. So what would MB do?
I MB every day, most days several times. Heck, easily 99% of the sex I have, my wife isn't even present.
Note that I didn't suggest you simply try masturbating.
Not sure what the point is here though.
The point is, do you need porn and/or fantasy to distract you from the feelings that arise from what you're doing? Or can you embrace those feelings and enjoy mb for its own sake; not just for the release at the end?
Desire is the goal.
Desire is the goal only if you need validation.
Even if we say that sex is NOT being used for validation, the feeling of having passionate sex with a truly desirous women is impossible to replicate in any other way.
Only because you crave the feeling of being desired. If you didn't, then having connected sex with a woman who fully occupies her sexuality would still be one of the easiest ways to get an incredibly wonderful feeling, but it wouldn't be the end-all-be-all your mind is making it out to be. You'd then be open to dozens of other ways to make yourself happy. You'd be well on your way to becoming a man who possesses himself and that feels significantly better than the greatest sex in the world.
So what would MB do?
Done with full consciousness, it's a means of self-validation.
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Maybe I've lost the plot on this, but it seems pretty arrogant to self-validate totally with regards to sex, on account of it being a two-person game. There are technique things (like how roughly you grab nipples or other sensitive parts, and I'm sure you can all think of others) that perhaps shouldn't be self-validating. A certain sensitivity to your partner's preferences and the attitude that you can always make a good thing even better ... that's not seeking validation, that's seeking your partner's pleasure (and not being an insufferable a-hole).
However, if we're talking about the confidence that you are innately a desirable person and eminently f*ckable regardless of what your current partner thinks or how much they want you, that's another story.
Even so, I think "Desire is the goal only if you need validation" veers into cloud-cuckoo-land. No matter how great you feel about yourself, the honest desire of another human is the greatest aphrodisiac I can think of, offhand. It's ... what's the word ... synergistic with your own desire for them.
The problem arises when your craving for the other's desire is primarily to shore up your own ego. Or a necessity for the maintenance of your own self-image.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
Only because you crave the feeling of being desired. You mean their are people that DON"T crave this. That would be pretty strange behavior.
If you didn't, then having connected sex with a woman who fully occupies her sexuality would still be one of the easiest ways to get an incredibly wonderful feeling, but it wouldn't be the end-all-be-all your mind is making it out to be. How could a woman possibly be fully into her sexuality WITHOUT desiring sex?
You'd then be open to dozens of other ways to make yourself happy. You'd be well on your way to becoming a man who possesses himself and that feels significantly better than the greatest sex in the world. Can you give an example from your life. What is out there that TOPS passionate sex with a desirous woman. How do you get your body to replicate ALL the sensations of passion?
(tripod) How do you figure that desire is the goal *ONLY* if you need validation.
If you don't need validation, why do you care about desire? If you need to feel like "wow, this person wants me *bad*" it's because you need your sexual desirability validated.
Let's just put on the breaks here.
Let's just not.
You mean to tell me that if we want to be desired by our partners.....that its ONLY because we want validation????
Yes. Why else would you want it?
That means that we would HAVE to live alone and unwanted for the rest of our lives to prove to you that we were somehow mentally stable.
That's a leap in logic I don't follow. I might say you have to be *willing* to live alone and unwanted for the rest of your life if you're emotionally healthy. The number of people who are unwanted by -anybody-, though, seems incredibly small to me.
Sorry dude, not buying it......
No problem. I'm not selling it, I'm giving it away.
(Kettricken) There are technique things (like how roughly you grab nipples or other sensitive parts, and I'm sure you can all think of others) that perhaps shouldn't be self-validating. A certain sensitivity to your partner's preferences and the attitude that you can always make a good thing even better ... that's not seeking validation, that's seeking your partner's pleasure (and not being an insufferable a-hole).
The second sentence answers the first. Technique issues and sensitivity to your partner aren't issues of validation.
However, if we're talking about the confidence that you are innately a desirable person and eminently f*ckable regardless of what your current partner thinks or how much they want you, that's another story.
That's exactly what we're talking about.
Even so, I think "Desire is the goal only if you need validation" veers into cloud-cuckoo-land.
Opinions vary. Personally, I'm looking for a woman who f*cks me silly. Whether she desires me or not is her business.
No matter how great you feel about yourself, the honest desire of another human is the greatest aphrodisiac I can think of, offhand.
Yet I am de facto single, I know women who desire me, but I'm not interested in sex with them. Am I immune to the greatest aphrodisiac you can think of?
The problem arises when your craving for the other's desire is primarily to shore up your own ego. Or a necessity for the maintenance of your own self-image.
Agreed.
(Cemar) You mean their are people that DON"T crave this.
That is my belief. I hope I'm one of them. I don't know that I manage it every day but I'm getting better.
That would be pretty strange behavior.
Disagree. It's much better than the alternative.
How could a woman possibly be fully into her sexuality WITHOUT desiring sex?
That's up to her; what's it to me? I would imagine that if she's into her sexuality then she does desire sex, but that doesn't necessarily mean she desires *me*. One might argue that if she's fully into her sexuality and is having open, connected sex with me then that mean she desires me but again, that's her business. I don't need to know what's in her head. I'm just there in the moment with her.
What is out there that TOPS passionate sex with a desirous woman.
Well, this isn't an example from my life, but I've had people tell me that doing crack TOPS passionate sex with a desirous woman. In fact, these people easily gave up passionate sex because doing crack felt better to them.
As for examples from my life, I'm not going to go thru them because they mean something to *me* and not necessarily to anybody else. I'll tell you that many are accomplishment related. I'd also say that if a genie appeared and told me I could have amazing passionate sex every day for the rest of my life in exchange for all (or even many) of the other things that make me happy, I wouldn't do it. I want passionate monkey sex to be a by-product of my incredible life, not the purpose of it.
How do you get your body to replicate ALL the sensations of passion?
I find I can get by just fine without replicating all the sensations of passion, despite the fact I enjoy them so much.
Feeling good about who I am and what I do and how my life unfolds TOPS passionate sex with a desirous woman. Passionate sex with a desirous woman does NOT replicate all the sensations of possessing myself. I used to chase hot monkey sex with a desirous woman as the end-all-be-all of what made me feel good, Cemar, just like you. Just ask my STBX.
This is better.
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Hmmm.... I hear what people are proposing on this thread, that differentiation and self validation are a higher goal than enmeshment and other-validation. Since being desired is a form of other-validation, it is something to be concerned with as it can lead to all the marriage problems everyone is trying to escape. Self validation avoids these relationship problems, but it leaves a bad taste in people’s mouth because the pull of being desired and loved is so great. How can that part of other-validation be so bad?
Well I agree with both views, but that is because I think there is a third approach which gets very little play on this board and is one that I think should be discussed more. Perhaps that is because none of us here have been able to achieve it and that is interdependence. Now I’m the last to be talking about this, but as I understand it, interdependence looks on the surface to be exactly the same as enmeshment. There is the deep involvement with the affairs of one another, the concern over how each other feels, and I suspect there is even the need to be desired and loved.
The difference is when those enmeshing type of things are not met or provided by one partner, the other partner does not fall into enmeshed thinking or reacting. I think the reason this is possible is that the partner A has developed a level of empathy to understand the feelings of rejection of partner B is feeling and moves to validate those feelings as a GIFT and not as a NEED. Partner B accepts this gift at face value without expectation of obligation.
IMO this gives both people all the validation each wants/needs but without the negative consequences that come from enmeshment. However, I think the end result can look confusingly like enmeshment. Before interdependence can be achieved, I would think each person needs to learn to stand on his/her own feet and become truly independent and differentiated. That seems to be the purpose behind Schnarch’s “hugging till relaxed” exercise.
Only after the differentiated state is mastered can both people come back together without fear of abandonment because in time of crisis both people can differentiate knowing each will be ok standing alone. So the fear of differentiating is no longer a fear and the reactivity and attacks than come with differentiating can be avoided. People can transition back and forth between differentiation and interdependence without concern of retaliation or the need to seek other-validation (because of high empathy levels from the spouse which come as a gift). One critical point seems to be the need to become extremely open and vulnerable as a “price” to induce the spouse to offer a comforting “gift.” I the spouse is not aware that the other is in stress, how can s/he offer a gift?
In this way, is the desire that CeMar wants really the interdependent state he sees in some couples? CeMar, can you see how this comes full circle? To get the desire and feeling of “other-validation” that you seek from your wife, you both must first learn to differentiate and stand alone. That is what some many have been trying to tell you. But I think what has been missing is the false impression that such differentiation is the end of the road. I see it as only a midpoint. Interdependence is the final objective but it looks so much like enmeshment the two can be confused. Even though the path leads full circle, it is not a circle because the destination of interdependence is not enmeshment, it only passes by enmeshment.
I also think this may be what Mojo is struggling with in trying to balance fusion against self love.
cobra I think there is a third approach which gets very little play on this board and is one that I think should be discussed more. Perhaps that is because none of us here have been able to achieve it and that is interdependence. I see this as a better goal than what the co-dependency and differentation movements are promoting.
