Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums THE SEX-STARVED MARRIAGE Madonna/Whore Complex (part 7)

HW "I am who I am, why can't you just accept that"

Cobra Yep, I've heard that too, and its all a deflection. The tactic is a sort of reverse guilt thing... I respect you and accept you for who you are, so do the same for me. It casts you person in the role of trying to change and control him. Being the functional, differentiated beings we have become on this board, we immediately realize our "error" and back off. The truth is that we have only been duped.

FYI, that is where I am with BB, that is what she is saying. "I am who I am, why can't you just accept that"
Sorry it doesn't float my boat.

HW, if your H is willing to go to the new therapist, how about taking a break from his side of your M?

The Byron Katie page (www.thework.com) things help. Also search Youtube.com for videos by Byron Katie.

Lou

I know this is not a good thing to say to him but, at the same time, it is how I am feeling. But, instead of saying that, I have on numerous occasions (too many to count) that one of the many reasons I have stayed in this R is because I don't want to be the next one of his list of statistics that abandoned him. That has been the story of his life since day one (having been given up for adoption and then not bonding with his adoptive mother - ST feels this is where it ALL stems from). That coupled with a handful of very bad relationships and what do you have? My H

I believe in our marriage and I feel too many people give up and don't fight for what they believe in. They are all too willing to accept the "better" but not the "worst" - those are the vows I took 18 years ago and I still feel as strong about them today as I did then. However, there is only so long someone can live without the physical and emotional connection which is also part of the vows - is it not? (to love and to cherish)

Heywire,

I can’t argue with the frustration you feel. That’s a weekly feeling for me too.

That has been the story of his life since day one (having been given up for adoption and then not bonding with his adoptive mother - ST feels this is where it ALL stems from). That coupled with a handful of very bad relationships and what do you have? My H

Hard to see how your ST would be wrong about this. It seems your H has felt alone his whole life and does not know what it feels like to be wanted and accepted. His FOO explains a lot. Even though it is hard, try to see in his story what it is that HE did wrong. He was victimized as a child. All he really wants is to be protected like the other kids in is youth. That is part of his lesson, to let that past go and find protection within himself and with you. (I wouldn’t even get into the healthy, differentiated person as an objective for him. With severe abandonment issues like he has, I think true differentiation is too much for him to handle, at least for a few years.)

But, instead of saying that, I have on numerous occasions (too many to count) that one of the many reasons I have stayed in this R is because I don't want to be the next one of his list of statistics that abandoned him.

I believe in our marriage and I feel too many people give up and don't fight for what they believe in. They are all too willing to accept the "better" but not the "worst" - those are the vows I took 18 years ago and I still feel as strong about them today as I did then.

Can you see that there is another unspoken message in your statement? Sure you say a good thing in that you are willing to stand by him and stick with the marriage (which should be comforting to him), but you aren’t doing it out of love, rather you do it out of obligation to the marriage vows. That puts your obligations to the vows (which is really you focusing on you) over your love for him. That puts you on the moral high ground, only further wounding his self esteem. I think Mojo’s exH felt this too, which may be part of why he would say he could tell if Mojo made him dinner with our without love.

However, there is only so long someone can live without the physical and emotional connection which is also part of the vows - is it not? (to love and to cherish)

True, but it shouldn’t have anything to do with vows, IMO.

I am not saying that the sole reason I am staying in this M is because of my vows, that is just a small part of it. The primarily reason is, and always has been, because of my love for him. He knows that and acknowledges I am the only woman that has ever given him, what he considers to be, unconditional love. However, does he even know what unconditional love is?

You can't make someone love you and I don't know if he will ever know what REAL love is. He needs to learn how to love himself first but to do that, he has to open up and I don't know if he is willing to go to that very vulnerable place.

I dunno, Cobra. Idealistically, I agree with you, but doesn't it take a superhuman love to fully transcend all the betrayals and disappointments Heywyre has experienced and continues to experience in her marriage?

It seems to be setting the bar a bit high to imply that it's never enough to do something loving out of a sense of duty/commitment to one's vows as opposed to purely out of love in your heart. Again, I agree that this would be desirable, but some days/years it's just not feasible. Sometimes your commitment to each other (which is in part a commitment to one's own values) is the only thing that keeps you focused on holding up your end when all you really want to do is either rip their hair out or max out a credit card and flee to Fiji.

I agree that it may not be loving, helpful, or necessary to *voice* to your partner that the only reason you are staying is because you don't want to compromise your own principles, otherwise you would happily leave without looking back. Especially to someone with abandonment fears.

On the other hand, sometimes that may be *exactly* what they need to hear. Especially if they have entrenched themselves behind "This is the way I am; deal with it."

Heywyre, I so hear you. It is a constant source of amazement to me that many people who would throw 17 kinds of conniption fit and call their lawyer if their mate were to have sex with someone else seem to think nothing of trangessing "love, honor, cherish" etc on a regular if not daily basis. It's a package deal, boys and girls. Where your genitals go isn't the most important part, it's just the most easily quantifiable. (rant ends)

On the other hand .... you are under a *lot* of stress right now, extra stress and fear and grief for your brother. I don't know if this is what's happening with you, but in my experience, we tend to transfer completely-outside-our-control external or unique stress right into our most common (one might even say "comfortable", as in well known) source of stress and grief. Your relationship problems sit right in front of you with a big bright red target on them, and it's really easy to channel angst from other areas right along those familiar pathways.

I would suggest that you try to detach from your emotions about your relationship as much as possible right now, and let everything else in your life play out and settle down for awhile, then see where you are.

Actually Kett, I detached from the emotions of my R a long, long time ago and that is when things did start to turn around in our M. But yesterday I finally got the confirmation from ST that I have felt in my heart all along - that it was H that was resisting us moving further, not me!! I don't want to throw it in his face, because I know that would just make him withdraw all the more. But it was nice to hear that validation that I wasn't going insane. I know I have issues too, but I am and have been dealing with them as we go along with path. H, on the other hand, refuses to dig deeper and just accepts the fact that "sometimes there just isn't an answer"

Interesting thing happened yesterday when we were talking about our R after the session and he got into one of his (many) defensive modes and was pointing fingers (trying to deflect) and I admitted I have issues but that I am trying to work on them. H twists it and says "are you trying to be perfect", to which I replied "no, just a better person". We continued on with him saying he was "content" with who he is and didn't think he needed to change for anyone (another saying I have heard oodles of times). I told him I wasn't looking to change him, but that we could all learn to be better people. He disagreed and said that was only for people that were unsatisfied with their life etc.

Later that evening, in a continuation of our "talk", he casually mentioned about being "more mellow" as he got older and not being so "rude and blunt" with people. I knew that was my perfect opportunity to jump in. I encouraged him to talk about that and I gently threw in the odd "so, you feel you are a better person for that" and "it's just the right thing to do" I ended with "so everyone has room to improve and can "change" and be a better person" to which he affirmed

And before my eyes, he had fallen completely into the trap and he knew it and admitted that "perhaps" I was right and we could all use a little improvement.

Kett,

I dunno, Cobra. Idealistically, I agree with you, but doesn't it take a superhuman love to fully transcend all the betrayals and disappointments Heywyre has experienced and continues to experience in her marriage?

Sure it does, if you personalize it. Think of it this way – how would you react to a child who was orphaned, abused, traumatized, etc? There are social workers who deal with this type of situation all the time. Do they throw up their hands in frustration at some point and walk away? No, because they know it is not a matter of whether the child wants to be loved or not, but a matter of whether the child can overcome past memories and build trust in the new relationship, plus learn new behaviors. They do this by focusing on the pain within the child and understand that the actions of the are only reflection of that pain. That said, I KNOW it is easier in theory than in practice. I REALLY do know that.

Back to your comments…

It seems to be setting the bar a bit high to imply that it's never enough to do something loving out of a sense of duty/commitment to one's vows as opposed to purely out of love in your heart.

I understand where you are coming from with this, but really, this sounds more like your perception of the R, and may not have any bearing to how your spouse feels. Who is setting the bar, you are your H? If he never mentioned a bar, then why put such limits on your self?

This is a lot of what Corri is talking about. Do your best to accept what is, rather than read into the situation as what you think it should be. That is detachment.

Personally I do not think detaching from a relationship has to be a permanent way of thinking, but only a necessary stage as the marriage slowly evolves. The hope is that one day the two of you can get to a point of healthy, functional “enmeshment,” or interdependence.

I agree that it may not be loving, helpful, or necessary to *voice* to your partner that the only reason you are staying is because you don't want to compromise your own principles, otherwise you would happily leave without looking back. Especially to someone with abandonment fears.

Again, this is a self-centered statement, focusing on how your spouse is forcing you to compromise your principles, while guilt keeps you from leaving. Your spouse may not have any intention of causing you to compromise your principals.

I believe parents have an obligation to repair the marriage if children are involved. If there are no children, or the kids are grown and out of the home, then I become split between working on the M and just splitting up and starting fresh. But as long as someone is one this board, I assume they choose to work on the M.


Heywire,

That sort of conversation you had with your H is just the sort of “keeping it in his face” that I mentioned to Williebek on his thread, and shows the type of turmoil that your H is undergoing internally. He is growing.

Heywire is a wife, friend and partner not a therapist or a social worker.

Heywyre, Corri wrote on her thread:

I think this is a very important question for you (and me) to answer for ourselves.

Martelo,

Heywire is a wife, friend and partner not a therapist or a social worker.

If she thinks like that, she will have a hard time detaching when things get rough. Flip over into wife, friend and partner when the relationship is good.

Why do you think someone should hold to the ideals of wife (or husband), friend and partner when the spouse and the marriage is in a dysfunctional state? Those roles are better served in a healthy, functional marriage. Isn't it an unspoken contract to expect that she can be a wife, friend and partner when her H may not feel likewise or the marriage cannot support it? Isn't this self deception?