There should not be much surprise that HD’s wife is acting like this. I think it is typical and is something that authors like Schnarch warn about. HD is slowly differentiating. He and his wife have been enmeshed for too long, as seen by his need to ask “permission” to go on this trip with his own money. The posters here are picking up on this and this enmeshment is what bothers everyone. As HD differentiates, it threatens the previous enmeshed comfort zone that MrsHD has helped to create and has become her safety zone.
Now she feels HD tearing away at this and she now feels vulnerable, so she emotionally will do everything she can to get back to her comfort, even if she intellectually knows it is not healthy or does not make sense. She wants her own control over family assets but does not want HD to have the same. So she will “sabotage” his attempts to differentiate, playing on his “loyalty” to her, his “inferior” sense of dedication to the kids, the finances, his lack of self sacrifice and her more generous commitment to others…..
All this is scary stuff for her because it means she has to stand on her own two feet and trust the HD will do the same PLUS stand by her and not run away. This is abandonment. This is why she has helped to create the enmeshment in the first place. HD is ahead of her in that he has been facing his abandonment issues for some time now and has come to accept that it is possible, but that he “can handle it.” I doubt she has not come face to face with this yet so any ideas she may have of divorce may not be very realistic. She is reacting out of fear and the only way she can get through this is to just experience it and come out alive on the other side. So she will b*tch, moan, argue, get angry, attack, whatever.
That is why I say it is so important for HD to show empathy to her for the panic she is experiencing BUT stick to his goals and maintain firm boundaries. Holding too hard a line will become counter-productive. Once HD caves in, he will lose the opportunity for major growth in his wife. (Lou, this is where you have been hurting yourself and why rescuing can be so damaging.) This trip to Tucson has NOTHING to do with money, or the trip itself. It all has to do with “forcing” MrsHD to confront her fears and stand on her own, and not hanging onto HD for dear life. She does not want to undertake this growth. THIS is what scares her, not the money, not the gifts, not the sense of serving the kids first, etc. In spite of all MrsHD says, her number one concern is herself. The excuses about sharing first with the kids and others is just a deflection.
The hardening and “callousing” she had to undertake in her FOO means there is no way she will express such weakness. To deal with a person having narcissistic tendencies, you need to show compassion but with the purpose of making that person get in touch with his/her own sense of compassion and not to rescue. Firm boundaries make that person take responsibility for his/her own growth, not piggy-backing on your growth.
She did not want to give up the "control" of the finances. Fine...I just want to understand where we are financially, and how we're doing. She reasserted that we're doing pretty well with regard to debt/income ratios and retirement savings. And college funds are also doing okay, in spite of the late start.
Hmmmmm.... big red flag for me here.
When you said she handled the finances, I didn't think that meant you really didn't know any of the details. Omigod, hd, this is huge.
I just want to understand where we are financially, and how we're doing. She reasserted that we're doing pretty well
You REALLY don't know the details? The numbers-- the SPECIFIC numbers?
What if you're NOT doing well? What if her reaction to your $200 trip is precisely because you're not doing well? What if she has screwed everything up, taken some chances with investments, created her OWN nest egg in another bank because "he keeps threatening me with divorce!"
You must become an equal partner in the finances again or you will NEVER be able to locate your balls! She can still run them, but you must be aware of how much you have, what she does with it, where it all is, passwords etc. on all accounts, where to find this info at any time (i.e., online banking, quicken, etc.).
You're right, lil. I do know where the info is, and I do have the passwords, etc. I just don't track the day to day in and out of the money.
I really do trust that she has not screwed everything up. She has always shown better aptitude for financial stuff than me, and she is, despite other faults, an exceptionally honest person.
I've been following this thread and I can see a lot of myself in what you're writing about MrsHD. And that makes me cringe a bit. I handle the money in our household and I always have. Cac "let me" because it didn't matter to him one way or another. I have complained in the past about the burden of keeping the finances and cac has offered to take it over, but I've resisted. I have not screwed up the finances and I'm not trying to hide anything. I simply have control issues and abandonment issues as Cobra described, and it scares me to give up control.
I could have the same issues (and have, really) about cac going on short trips. His were business-related with a little tourism thrown in, so the company paid for the airfare, etc., but I still wrestled with feeling abandoned, especially being home with a small child. If I wasn't a SAHM I don't think I would have minded so much. At the time it seemed that he was getting away to do something fun, while I was "stuck" at home with the child. Maybe childish of me to feel that way, but it's honestly how I felt at the time.
He will be taking another trip next month, and I asked him to buy me something. Not anything expensive like jewelry, just a little something. "Gifts" is not my LL, but QT is, so I suppose the gift would be symbolic of QT -- him thinking of me when he bought it.
Recently cac has started playing music again, which I encouraged him to do. He is doing a bit of GAL, which he needs. However, I didn't plan on him needing to purchase or restore instruments, so now I'm struggling with the money issue again. And in the scheme of things, we're not talking about that much money. And he will most likely be earning a little money playing. But money is a hot-button issue for me, and now even more so because I'm a SAHM with no income of my own. I gave up a lot of control when I decided to stay home. And because I handle the money and am the worrier in the family, I worry. That's just what I do.
The other problem is that I get into martyr mode by not buying things for myself sometimes to save money. Then when cac decides he wants to spend $$ on an (inexpensive) instrument, I start thinking that it's not fair that he can buy something like that and I can't. The truth is that I could buy something, but I don't. (Maybe it's not even about me buying anything. Maybe I'm looking for some sort of recognition for being a good little martyr, huh?) Actually, I do buy things, little things, small amounts of money that add up over time. I even did this when I WOH. Spending larger amounts can be too scary. Ugh. I still have so much work to do.
I do think it's good that you are going on this trip. (I also think it's good that cac is pursuing his music, even though that may not be apparent to him.) You do need to do this. I agree with fearless and Cobra that you can assert yourself without being nasty or vindictive, and I know you posted that you plan to approach it that way.
OK, once again, this probably helped me more than you. Following this thread has given me some insight into myself and fodder for my upcoming C session, which is a good thing.
Kudos to you, HD, for taking steps to improve your life.
Sorry for the outburst, hd. I'm cranky these days.
I know, sweetie. Me too. I think we both need to get our ashes hauled.
Originally Posted By: mrs.cac4
The other problem is that I get into martyr mode
MsHdog is displaying a lot of this, although she DOES spend money on herself. I play the martyr too, but I think I'm a bit quieter about it because I blame myself for putting us into financial straits. Oh, and wanting recognition for being a "good little martyr" is one of those "covert contracts" they talk about over on the NG site: "If I do (or abstain from doing) x, y, and z, surely he/she will recognize this and treat me to ___."
It occurs to me that you might start looking at the finances more often, possibly weekly at least, and also possibly questioning things-- not questioning her judgment, but asking about stuff. It's a way of becoming more of a partner financially.
I didn't realize you had the whole trip covered... I thought just the plane/concert tickets. In any event... I still wouldn't see the big deal even if you didn't have the whole thing covered...
As for the selfish argument... when she calls you selfish, you look her in the eye and say, "I have no doubt you feel that way."
Mrs. HD: "I feel taken advantage of..."
HD: "I'm really sorry you feel that way."
In so doing, you acknowledge you have heard her, you acknowledge her POV, you are being respectful and empathetic, but you are not backing down, nor are you necessarily agreeing with her.
This is only going to be a big deal if you continue to treat it like its a big deal. Stop.
I agree with Lil that you need to be more informed about your finances for all kinds of reasons.
Hope you have fun on your trip, even though it is a month or so away.
Oh, and wanting recognition for being a "good little martyr" is one of those "covert contracts" they talk about over on the NG site: "If I do (or abstain from doing) x, y, and z, surely he/she will recognize this and treat me to ___."
My answer is: surely he will recognize this and love me/approve of me/validate me. Which is what I always wanted from my mother. Sick, isn't it?
HD- Be on alert-- if your planned trip is still a month away, be prepared for her to precipitate some sort of crisis/situation/episode that will make it impossible for you to go. It may be some emergency situation that will make it necessary for you to be at home, or it may be an emergency expense (of EXACTLY $200) that she will expect you to sacrifice your $$$ to pay for.
A month gives her plenty of time to set up an "unforseen" event.
