So as to avoid the dreaded thread lock monster, being presumptios and starting a new thread. Seeing as I'm really just starting to DB, kind of appropriate as well.
I think I broke just about all of the DB rules tonight, but might not be that bad of a thing in the long run. This might get long, so grab a beverage.
Wife got home and wasn't in a great mood. I was upstairs and noticed her pull up, so I went to the door to open it for her as I knew she had gone to Safeway and would have a bag or three of groceries. Gave D5 a kiss as she came through, trying to hold the door open for W and get a snippy, "Move". I wasn't really in her way.
I had to break a window to get inside on Tuesday. All of the keys were in the house and, even if the neighbors had an extra, they were all gone anyway. I've taken care of getting it replaced, but hadn't covered the hole (we didn't really have much of anything to cover it with, it's in the basement with the screen replaced, and I didn't want to risk breaking the glass anymore -- and I kind of forgot to do it earlier today. Just slipped my mind.) Anyway, she found a piece of cardboard from somewhere and cut it to fit the window. I was "cooking" tacos for dinner (browning meat doesn't classify as cooking in my book, fixing supper is more like it). She came up and just looked totally pissed. I said I was sorry, I wasn't feeling all that great on the day I busted the window, couldn't really think of anything to put over it and since they're fixing it tomorrow, didn't think it was that big of a deal. "You should have covered it." in a very superior/angry voice. Yeah, maybe. Really, not a big deal to me. But then I opened my mouth instead of acting as if, "You've done this to me for a long time. You just make me feel stupid for something that I don't think is important, but you've just got to be right." She just sort of muttered "should of covered it."
me: That's my point, you just don't care how what you say makes me feel (this sounds fairly trivial, but she's got this way of acting that is pretty insulting. I'm not conveying it well, but trust me on this one.)
W: Ok, but it's just common sense to fix the window.
Me: You don't get it do you. You just act like it's got to be done your way or it's wrong. You've made me feel pretty awful over the years for a number of things like this.
After that, we let it drop for a bit while we fixed up plates for the girls. They went into the living room to eat and we had a major conversation. Good or bad, I don't know. This is going to be all jumbled up, I got very emotional in her and can't remember the sequence quite right. Also paraphrasing and can't quite remember how we got into the meat of the discussion.
Me: (refering to the window thing) so I guess this means you really want to go ahead with the D?
W: I feel done. Yes.
Me: Why did you say we could always cancel the mediation, but I'm going to make the apt?
W: I never said that.
Me; You were sitting right there the night we were talking about scheduling it.
W: Don't remember that.
Me: (somehow started talking about how she's acting) You've been rude to me lately. Like with the door earlier, 6 months ago, you would have said thank you, given me a kiss, and walked in.
W: Probably, but I don't want to lead you on.
Me: I know how you feel. Being polite to me isn't leading me on. and you've been a little rude at times, even though we haven't been together much.
W: I don't intend to do that and I'm sorry if that's the case.
Me: Just be nice. Like I said, I know how you feel. You know I don't want a D, that I think we can have a great M, but it'll take time. I've gotten to a point where I can let you go, but I just think it's a shame that we'll never know for sure what could have happened because you keep saying you're done even though you've admitted to never giving the R 100%. I'm not going to get in the way of the D or fight you on it. I don't feel like you've really been with me for the last few years because I became someone that I didn't like. I finally really understand how I made you feel and I don't want to live like that any longer.
W: I feel like you're manipulating me. Turning the bed down, putting some PJs out for me last night, it was just like, enough [I did that for her last night, thought it'd be a nice gesture so she could just crawl into bed). It's like these changes are pressure [or something like that] and you're doing it just for me.
Me: That is not true. I realize that for us to have a M, I woul dneed to change, but I'm making the changes for me. I didn't like who I was and I don't want to be that person anymore. [was starting to get a little emotional here, so said something like] I shouldn't even be talking now, you've said before that this type of conversation pushes you away as does everything I've read . . .
W: Everything you've read. all goes back to books for you, doesn't it. How do you feel? What do you think? I go by intuition, what are you feeling?
M: Books help me think and to get my thoughts in order. I've alwyas been like that and your rejection of my reading or suggesting things that I've seen in books over our relationship (whehter sex or relationship stuff or whatever) has been seen by as a rejection of me. A rejection of who I am. [I was starting to tear up a little now, voice shaking] OK, here's what my intuition says. I think that we could have a lifelong love affair. Am I certain of that. No. I might discover that I want more than you can give. The spark may not come back for you toward me. I can accept that. What I have a harder time accepting is that we're being honest with each other for the first time in a while and you just keep saying that you're done. I don't want a guarantee. I won't think that you're leading me on. I just want a chance. And you've never given us that chance. All this spring, while I thought things were going well, you were telling your mom, not me, your mom, that there was no spark and that things weren't getting any better. You never told ME that, so how was I to know what was in your heart and connect to it? I love you. I've fallen back in love with you. I've been a better man for having known you. There's nothing more I'd like to do right now than throw you over my shoulders, take you upstairs, and make lvoe to you. but I can't, and that's killing me. I'm not acting like I'm acting as an act, I'm trying to be a better man. I'm going to be OK without you if it comes to that, but I'd damn sure rather have you in my life than not.
I teared up, she teared up. Then, of course, one of our kids came in the kitchen -- D9 "More cheese, please."
Me: I know how you feel, what I don't understand is why you feel this way. I know there are ways to act to get the spark back, but we've [I may have said you] never seriously tried to do any of them.
W: I just don't feel the spark. I feel like it's over.
Me: Why
W: I'm happier when your not around. It's like being around you drains the life from me.
Me: How have I acted in the last 7 or 8 months to make you feel that way? I've never stood in your way of going anywhere or making plans or going out with friends or taking the girls places. I've not been rude or sulky at home.
W: I just feel that way
Me: Why
W: [She was having a hard time getting this out, so I said, I don't care what the words you use are, I never have, just tell me how you feel. She had said something about, "I don't know the right words"] before she started, she muttered something like, 'Your're just goign to throw this back in my face."
W: It's like you're a huge weight holding me back. I dread coming home. When you're not around, I like to do things -- with or without the girls. I'm tired. I feel like I've been driving the relationship [in the context of making decisions about vacation, etc.] and I'm tired of it. Somewhere in here she said something about pressure for sex [while she might have felt pressure, I can say that I did my best not to pressure her for over a year now. I was operating within the rules as I was given to understand them.]
Me: You're absolutely right. You have done all of the work. I understand that now. I don't want that relationship, I want to be your partner and I know how to do that now. I don't care about the sex right now, I want to be with you.
I then told her that I want you. I want to hear about your day. I want to talk about my day. I want to laugh with you. I want to ML to you. I want to sit on the couch and hold your hand. More like that.
She looked kind of tearful, but back to I'm done. She's got nothing inside for me. She doesn't feel it, so she won't feel it, so it won't come back so we can't work on it to come back -- so goes the circular logic merry-go-round.
Me: I said if none of this matters to you, why are you teared up a little?
W: Because you teared up and I hate to see anyone cry.
I then asked her for one more thing: All I'd like is a chance. A real chance, and if you look inside, I think you'll agree that you never gave us one. I won't think that you're leading me on and I know that it might not work out. I'm going to become a better man, and I'd like you along. I don't want to look back in 2 years and wonder what if. If we give it an honest effort and in 6 months or a year, nothing has changed. Fine. I can live with that. I can move on now, but it's with a lot more regret because I really just don't know what could be.
I didn't press for an answer and she didn't offer one.
I also asked her, either before or after the 2nd chance,: Do you just not like me?
W: [after thinking for about a minute, that made me nervous] No, that's not it. I just don't see growing old with you.
Me: Are you scared that you're going to give yourself back to me and that I'm going to revert to my bad habits?
W: Yes. A little bit, I think.
I went downstairs to eat after telling her I needed to be away from her for a little bit. When I went back upstairs, I thanked her for listening to me, because it was the first time in while that I think she really did. Oh, that's another thing I said earlier in the conversation, "Just listen to me. To the words that I say. I'm speaking from my heart. Don't read anything into them or interpret them. You always [I know, bad communication] assume you know what I'm thinking. You don't. Listen. This is how I really feel about you."
Just before coming down to type up tonight's version of War and Peace, I stopped her in the living room and told her I had to say one last thing. That I wish I ahd thought of it earlier, but that I'm not as quick as you seem to think I am. "If you were to say, now, let's give it a try. I wouldn't think you would be leading me on. You were leading me on all last spring when you were telling me everything was getting better while telling your mom that you were miserable. THAT was leading me on."
She at least had the courtesy of looking a little guilty at that.
Where does this leave me? A little emotionally drained for one. She just seems determined not to feel anything for me and to shut me out. It's almost like any kindness is a chance she can't take because it might mean she is making the wrong decision. On the other hand, she may just be totally done. For now, for my sanity, I'm going to just have to operate under that assumption. Anything else will be a pleasant surprise. I sincerely believe that we could have a wonderful life togehter but she doens't want to take that chance with me. So be it. I've got a life to live.
Maybe she'll surprise me.
Great, as I'm about to put this in, I hear our oldest ask my W, "Why doesn't daddy sleep with you?" Ah, f*ck.
Last edited by Heimlich; 08/03/0703:22 AM.
My latest
Me: 36 W: 35 2 D: 9 and 5 T: 16 years M: 12 10/4/06: Bomb 10/5/06: Ended A 4/22/07: ILYBNILWY
wow heimy that sounds alot like the conversations I had in the last couple of months with my wife........before she moved out.
Seems as if when they have made up there mind, they have made up there mind. I would strongly suggest at this point to shut up. If you keep pushing with this kind of talk to her, I would almost guarentee that soon she will not only not be sleeping in the same bed as you, but not the same house.
It is hard. I wanted to find that one "magic" thing to say that would break down the wall. But I didnt. If I ever figure it out, I will market it and become very rich! lol.
Yeah, I know. I was about to shut up, when she said something to the effect of, "I go by my intuition, not by something out of a book. What' you're intuition telling you." That's what started that whole avalanche.
And, yes, shutting up now. I'm done with that until she comes back. 'Til then, all about me and my girls. Time to start putting the big ol' brain to use to have some fun.
BD
My latest
Me: 36 W: 35 2 D: 9 and 5 T: 16 years M: 12 10/4/06: Bomb 10/5/06: Ended A 4/22/07: ILYBNILWY
I thought that was kind of a good conversation. I don't know where it got you--where it will lead--but it was a decent kind of discussion.
I would be very careful not to overwhelm your wife, though. Ideally, she should lead any relationship discussion you have. It won't work to out-talk her or to play up any poor logic she shows. You have to be humble. You have to really listen to what she's saying, and you have to find ways to agree with her.
Ideally, it will be a matter of showing her the ways in which you've changed, and continuing those changes.
NDDT makes some good points. Be careful not to push! I do understand how necessary it must have been for you to get this out. It's out now, and the thing to work on is kindness and brevity, I think.
oh man, i'm sorry you went through that. i have heard the same things and i have said the same things. look, she wants to be heard, your a smart guy, read a lot, into history, well she isn't. she is a women that has needs and wants to feel emotions. trust me i'm the most anal guy i know, but you can't tell her these things.
what i did is let her talk, i heard it all. some of the things she said, i didn't do, some i don't remember doing, but don't doubt that i did, they fit the bill. but others, i did them and it really hurt her. what it comes down to, is for her, i did them all, i hurt her. when she talks just listen, mirror, validate and emphatize. i don't care if she says your the worst person in the world, don't argue. don't persuate, don't try and drive. it will sting.
but the good news, sorry for all of that, is once she passes that, and gets that layer out of the way, your going to hear that she is scared and unsure. you have to let her get past it, her anger is driving and by talking to her your helping her hold it. just listen.
Hiemlich, I may be alone on this, but I think the conversation could be a good one. You laid your cards on the table and said many things I have not told my wife in the 9 months of this process. I actually am thinking of attempting a conversation such as this. Now, that being said, you need to stop with this type of conversation. Keep your focus right where you say it is going to be. I can tell you from experience that if she does let down her guard a little and is checking out the new you, don't overdue it. I think it is very insightful that she told you some of these things are pressuring her, keep doing them sporatically, but back off a bit. Give her these 180's in moderation, but be consistant. Too much for sure is pressure, but you said this is the person you want to become. Be kind and pleasant, but back off a little. I think you are on the right track, and glad you are getting detached, but it is easy to fall back in when at the high of the rollercoaster.
Sorry for the rough night, but I think you handled many parts of the conversation well, and I think you know to lay off now and not initiate this kind of conversation for a good while. So many of the things your W said are similar to what my H has said to me. Her wall is definitely up, but it doesn't have to stay there forever.
