Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums We're separated--What Now? H coming today, what do I do when he asks how I am

Hey Morgan, You seem to be doing everything with a lot of class. Of course he aches. This sounds dumb but your sitch reminds me of a classic Hollywood Tale of an actor dealing with his MLC and then regretting it. I am also assuming you have twins? Isn't that kind of stressful? My therapist mentioned my H's depression may have coincided with the birth of my son and he is just a singleton. How is it in your house? We have a lot in common actually as we have been married the same time and are the same age with kids around the same age. Sounds like a pattern around these parts. So where is the formula to deal with this sitch? C'mon scientists!

One of my best friends is a therapist and she's been telling me for 3 months that he is deep in MLC mode (classic, and also that he has narcissic tendencies, lol). I wouldn't say he's depressed, but I would say things did change here 3 years ago when we had the twins. with my singleton, things were really easy...he was an easy baby, I bf and didn't see the need for H to get up in the night to help, etc, etc. With the twins, all bets were off...I was exhausted, he needed to step up, it was just a lot of work. a lot of work. what makes me angry is that now we are at a good stage with them, they are at such a fun age and things are so much smoother/easier. things could have been so much better with H and I. We could have done all the things we've had to put off for a bit. But instead, he's chosen another path. he's giving all his love and attention to the OW, and pushing me into the deep dark past. He's also re-written history to make it seem like there has been no good in the past few years...its bizarre almost. I accept my responsibilities in the weakening of our marriage, but he keeps layering on stuff that never happened, that makes no sense. guessing to justify his own actions, which he prefers to blame me for (yes, I'm to blame for just about everything in life. world hunger? that's me. the national debt? yep, me again. and don't get me started on global warming).

nice to meet you, and sorry you are dealing with crap, too. and yes, lets get that magic formula and get this worked out. lol

another thing we have in common, btw, is that I used to live in CA...grew up there, in fact.

I posted this on your other thread before I found this one. Tought I would copy it here since you said this would be your main thread.

This is in reference to making things up.

It is NEVER a good idea to lie or make things up. Period. You do not have to tell him anything. You have plans is all you need to say. If he pushes too bad. I am sure he does not share all of this plans with you. Much better to let him wonder.

okay, no more lying, I promise. lying is his domain, anyway, I'd rather not start.

just got off the phone with him...called to say good morning to the kids. sounds like he had a rough night and he's in a bad mood, but other than say to him, "you sound tired" I didn't ask or push. that right there is huge for me, the stepping back. the kids sounded good, though. and I did...I was nice and upbeat. and I realized about an hour after he left last night just how I should have responded when we were talking about my date with his grandmother. when he said his ears would be burning, instead of acting with too much bravado (oh, we'll have other things to talk about, etc) I should have laughed and asked if he was nervous. teasing, sort of. it would have been what I would have done years ago, it would have been more playful, and also more sincere. so this morning when we talked about it briefly I did, and it felt better. I felt better.

so nothing's really changed, but so far 5 days with no fighting, at least if we can make it thru today, and I think we can. I just need to guard myself while out with his grandmother. I need to keep the same demeaner with her, because anything I tell her will get back to him. so I'm going to be upbeat and fun and keep things on a good level. wish me luck!

Morgan,

Just caught your thread and I understand that you want him to know your pain and what damage HE has done to you and your children. I really get that. But now is not the time for that. You see, what makes you attractive is not your neediness, or clinginess or your sadness. Those things will not bring him back. And if he uses your apparent "moving on" attitude as an excuse to let himself off the hook, I don't buy that in the long run. More likely he'll realize that the only possible way for you to move on and be doing well is if 1) he treated you so poorly that he killed your love and or, you were no longer willing to have pain inflicted on you, and 2) for you to have moved on means you are strong, in shape, attractive and all the things he was originally attracted to in you.

Now, if you tell me that you were super needy when you met and that you have to remain that way for him to come back, my advice would be different but more like, "gross, what a weird way to form a marriage" if you kwim.

For now, imho, you have to follow my DB coach's advice, which is the main thing that placed me in "piecing our marriage back together". We've been apart for 2 years. Yep, he moved 300 miles away for a year of more schooling and then moved to a new job, all the while saying he "hoped" we'd joing him..... I'm moving in 6 weeks with our d10 to join H (older ones in college) and be together in a new place. I don't want to move there, but I'm willing to give it 2 years and he SAYS he'll move back here or some other place if we dont' BOTH love it there by then. I am choosing to believe him. My story is a Long story with (knock on wood and genuflect) an apparently happy ending/new beginning. Or at least a hopeful one. and I can promise you that I'd be divorced if I had not found this place/advice and source of faith in trying to save the M. Mine might well still end in divorce, but I am feeling that it won't and besides, if it does, it won't be for lack of trying on my part. And it gives d10 more time with h....so, back to you.

I don't know your sitch much. I assume he will justify his A if he has not already, and that usually is done by vilifying you. He must paint a negative picture of you with negative images of life at home, to justify leaving it. So, your job is to counter those negative pictures with positive ones. Hence, no anger. I KNOW that requires the patience of a saint. I get that. But in front of him, lose the anger. Show it here. But not in front of him. Not b/c he deserves no anger, but b/c you want the M to work so you have to counter the negatives, remember? Otherwise he can say, "yep, w sure is a bitch. thank God I left, don't want to go back there to be hassled and nagged (or held accountable)...blah blah blah.

Do you want the guy back, assuming he changes back into who you thought he was? If so, you have to Keep the Road Home Paved and Smooth. Don't make it impossible for him to come back, but do not be so available that he sees you as pitiful, a doormat who he won't respect and respect is a BIG part of love, which I realize more now. Contempt is supposedly a fatal sign in a marriage, according to some expert. But he has a point. It's disrespectful to have contempt and I think you need to remember that begging, pleading is not respecting yourself. I realize also, that there is a fine line between being prideful, and enforcing healthy boundaries. Make sure your choices are not based on wanting to punish him and that has been my internal guide so ask yourself--"is this going to help me reach my goal? what will this really do or make him feel? Guilt?--usually comes out as anger so it won't work. Or am I doing this to teach him a lesson? " If so, don't. My God, I know the line between pride and self respect is blurry and shifting at times. But your neediness has not helped so far and he asks about you in part, to alleviate his guilt but also to confirm his reasons for feeling uncomfortable with you. And to prove he's a nice guy and blah blah blah
More DB coach advice, which I will Stipulate....it's hard.....but for me, it helped a lot.

"Listen like a lover"--no attacking his choices, b/c when you attack the choices, he is forced to defend them rather than really looking objectively at them. This does not mean to praise meanness, but to listen as best you can, and let him see that there is friendship at least, for the kids. The two couples I know who divorced and remarried had friendships (took awhile of course, and both M's had kids) that allowed some level of comfort and then confiding, and then emotional intimacy and eventual reconciliation. Same for me. Anger is still an issue for me but when h said the other day that he wants to start fresh, it finally dawned on me. He feels remorse but may not ever know the depths of pain he caused me or the damage he did to our children and his R's with them....so the question becomes, "can I start over with him with a clean slate?" I have been able in the past, a few times, to go on trips with him and set aside/compartmentalize his past "misdeeds" so that the kids and I could have some good memories on a long weekend when he is here, or on a vacation.

When I am able to promise myself that I don't have to lose the righteous anger I feel forever (though I probably do...) and I am not making his behavior "right" by setting my anger aside temporarily,.... I'm helping my kids, if nothing else, by having both parents in a car or room without a fight and maybe with some friendliness...a good memory.

I have to tell you that I've had some remarkable luck with this. It has helped so much to remember why I loved this man in the first place. We laugh a lot when there is no tension. He is a smart guy and I like him answering the kids questions in depth.

DB words: APPLAUD LOUDLY FOR THE 1% OF GOOD HE DOES/SAYS. Um yes, that is hard as hell. But honestly, it disarms them. Example: h used to pay all the bills and get grumpy about it, every month. When he moved some bills fell through the cracks and I had to start doing it every month to be safe. I was pissed and freaked out b/c it was sad, scary and totally out of character for my h....so anyhow, after a DB session I mentioned to H that I had not paid a specifc bill and asked if he had. He was suddenly very defensive and ready to spew alien vomit on me, I could tell. He said he had NOT paid it, but he had "been paying them ALL for 20 years!" to which I said: "Yes you have, and I want to thank you for that b/c now that I'm doing them, it's really a stressor...so thanks for that". Total silence from H, instead of alien spew. Then he says, "you're welcome." For me, that moment was pivotal and has lead me to see that I will indeed do things differently from now on, if I can stay on track. But yes, that loud applause thing was really hard and sometimes impossible b/c he didn't do ANY thing I could applaud. But I could thank him for asking about how my day was, "Good, thanks for asking" and I did not have to ask him reciprocal questions after awhile. I was too busy with my plans for my future without him and just so you know, I believe the turn around for us started when I truly detached, accepted -with some resignation-that we were ending and that my plans had to change and honestly, so many options became available I'd never have thought of before. I COULD live in Europe and teach there and the kids would be GREAT with that for a year or two, what a good experience for them....I didn't have to think of H's career first and foremost for the first time in decades...it was freeing and I was looking good and men were noticing and you know, somehow I must have let it show. He became more attentive and as soon as he reached his goal (attaining his 4595th credential....) and maybe he looked around and said, "where's my family?" Who knows? He has already revised the past 2 years a lot but I know he is realizing how much fun he has missed. I suggest you gently (don't make it obvious) remind your h of the GOOD fun times your and kids and you are having....not how they are always crying for him, but what YOU and the kids did that was fun, at the game, the funny things they said in the car or when YOU tucked them in, etc. Things you'd want to know if you were travelling. Reminding him of the beautiful side to parenting is hugely important. ANd don't bad mouth him to your kids which many of us do. Hell, I cried in front of my kids and the youngest one asked 25 times if we were getting a D. I said, "I hope not b/c we've been M a long time and I love him..." Also told her, "Whatever happens, I will only do what I think will make YOU most happy" and she seemed comforted by that. Plus, if you bad mouth him to them, it will make reconciliation that much harder and regardless, will damage them more. Save your spew for here.

So, to sum up--. If you feel you have to ask him something to show you are not indifferent, ( why would you ever be indifferent to him when he is the kid's dad?) you MIGHT (or not) ask him about his job or anything other than R talk or OW talk. Most A's end on their own when they run their course. Sometimes we LBSers make them last longer by "interrupting" the natural flow of things. Do you think your marriage was a sham and that OW is perfect for him? Is he that good of an actor? He may well believe what he says at the moment. PLEASE steer the convo away from R talk and be the one to end the conversation ---remember, you don't have time to waste--maybe sometime soon-in fact, you'll kind of start to hope he just gets his [censored] together enough to end it so you can move on. You're not happy about the d, but you are looking forward to not having a stomach ache every day....)food for thought...

Be upbeat and do the 180's PLEASE b/c they help YOU grow and GAL and IF IF IF ANYTHING WILL GET HIM BACK, and there is no guarantee anything you do will get him back, it is you GAL....and besides, in the end, if he does Not return, then you will be much closer to actual moving on than you would be if you stayed stuck in the clinging despair we've all felt. Also, we on this bb know a lot about what does NOT work....so we know things NOT TO SAY and what will push them away further...
GAL also makes him think that any changes you've claimed to have made, will look more real to him, more sincere. They don't have to directly relate to his complaints so much as just show him you are CHANGING and "doing new interesting things, meeting fascinating people and going to fun, exciting places..." get it?

If you want him, (and be open to the possibility that you won't), take a big breath and step back. You have no control over his behavior, or OW's, so the good news is that you don't have to worry about it anymore. If you have no control over the weather, do you fret about it? Do you do rain dances or pray for the sun to come out and look for signs, riveted to the weather channel? I doubt it.

At least he is seeing the kids and is not pretending this is all great and easy for him, *(though I agree it got tiresome when H told me he was "lonely all the time" and h said it to me with ANGER in his voice and I thought, wth?? hello?!!??) But your WILL ACT AS IF he is fine at times. It's part of his pride showing that he is right and not wrong and blah blah blah. You can admit when pressed, that "it gets hard sometimes" and when he says he misses the kids, "They miss you too" but you do not need to say you miss him too. I mean, he is gone by choice so when he says he misses you it's often him checking up on you still hanging around waiting for him to stroke his ego and give him the okay for some more crappy behavior OR OR OR , it's a probe b/c he's having 2nd thoughts....that'll be for you to figure out IF he does it again.

I'd probably let the first few "I miss you" "still love you" probes veer off with a remark that isn't rude but also not something that soothes him either. If he says he feels bad, you can validate his feeling (not making it right morally, but acknowledging it so he knows you are listening) and say "I can see that." If you speak to him in a parental voice (with questions like "How could you do this" or "why are you hurting us so much/being so selfish//adulterer, etc) When you use your parental voice, you shut down his inner voice....his conscience and inner moral compass.

Back to you, and GAL....He has to know at some point, he will lose you if this lasts too long and you cannot give him a date for when that is, (although you can give Yourself a date at which point, you will be done with this, if you can or want to. Some people are helped knowing their limbo will end and damn it, THEY will choose the date if the WAS doesn't do it for them). The holidays will provoke some emotions and could go either way.

I caution you, if he wants back in, take it slowly. (see LisaLost' posts about this). You cannot be hurt or do more damage to the M by being careful at that time, but you sure as hell can take him back too soon b/c you are so damn grateful he came back. If you take him back to quickly or you both one night decide you want to start over, the next DAY, imo you will end up getting left again for good---mainly b/c if he comes back before he is really ready, he'll leave again and you probably won't go thru this again and ironically you'll be the one to bail....so you see, taking it slow IF he gives the signals, can only help you. But we're getting ahead of ourselves. I see hope in your sitch, but it's precarious. I honestly think that the best thing to do is what you would do if you weren't feeling like crap about your M.


Pretend he's on a boring camping trip .....in Australia, (or in Alaska with my mlc H).....I just know the obsessing I did last year, helped no one. Nothing improved by me worrying and I wasted another year of my life! Talk to me in 6 months about how it's going with the anger and forgiveness and all. The WAS has to know if you reconcile that this won't be held over their head forever and I've told my h that (he didn't have an A as far as I know, but like I said, it's a long MLC story involving moves and a job in Alaska....leaving me with the kids for him to pursue his dream blah blah blah---) so my anger is on one hand based on 2 YEARS of him gone, and visiting monthly or less, and not some crazy weekend or one night stand. But on the other hand, my obsessing about him being with OW was a gut wrenching drag and I really doubt he did much if anything. I went out a few times, btw. I was discreet and the kids don't know, but 2 years is a long time to wonder what the dating world is like. There are good guys out there and you'll meet some on this very bb. NOT SAYING to do any internet man searching here....just saying that it helps to know men who feel strong emotions, don't cheat, and hang in there when others would not. They exist. Maybe your h will become one of them.
Good luck, hope this helps even though it was really long.
j-

wow, thank you so much for taking the time to both share some of your story and to offer advice. It is very helpful. in fact, I think I might just print that out and squirrel it away in my journal to refer back to.

I'm so glad I discovered this place! nice to have that encouragement to stay strong and keep going.

had a good day today, the outing with his mom/grandma was good, and I was upbeat and hopefully fun. H is living with his mom now, so hopefully if he asks she'll tell him just that. just waiting for the goodnight call from him and the kids. no plans tonight and won't lie about having any, think I'm going to take a hot bath and read a good book. not terribly exciting, not me rushing off anywhere, but still, I'll sound peppy and busy when he calls. and no fighting!

he drops the kids off tomorrow morning before heading off to the sox game, I'm pretty sure with OW. Ugh. I'm going to plan something fun for the kids and I to do so we can take off, or be getting ready to, right after he leaves. nope, not just sitting at home.

morgan,

you are in the right place. Ow is a symptom, a rainy cloud that you can do nothing about except don't go out while there's lightning.... so put the STOP sign in your face every time you go to that dark place of obsessing/ wondering "wth is He doing with HER???" stuff.

We all have done it and not one of us got happier or reconciled b/c of worrying and obsessing. Gotta let it go, at least for now so you can GAL and function. You are doing better than you realize btw. Really you are. If you are going to reconcile, obsessing won't help that either and if anything, I believe it lessens the chance of reconciliation. The more you know, the more you'll have to forgive and that also means, don't invent worse images of his actions than really exists. Just don't go there. Assume if he comes back it's b/c he is choosing you over her....and drop it. It would be true anyhow, and isn't that the important thing?

As for your h and going to the game without the kids, but with ow, IF true.....don't assume he is always happy with her or feels No guilt. I think that there is a great chance he'll wish some of the kids were with him at the game, b/c he'll have just dropped them off with you and then is Not taking THEM to a baseball game?? ...wth??? Of course he'll see families with kids and dads with their kids at the game, b/c not that many fathers go to games without their kids but with ow.... I bet he will miss them. You won't know it, but it'll happen. There are a 100 ways he'll think of the you and the family you created and 100 things that will remind him of good times, if they are not overshadowed by your anger...let those good feelings re-surface as they surely will. For every time you think he is having a GREAT TIME with OW, there will be many more real moments of him realizing that ow does Not know him as you do, and that your familiarity can be very comfortable, and that newness is not always positive and exciting.

As for your h's R with ow, it is not all fireworks and intellectual stimulation...and She may not enjoy hearing about the kids/past/family so much....and that will allow him to see her as she is, not someone without Your faults, but someone with her own...and lacking your good qualities and history --and please remember - don't get sucked into his delusions/rationalizations and revisions of the M. Like I said, is he that good of an actor that all those years he was faking happiness? Covering up his "real" misery? All those years of supposed happiness and raising a family life together...were just him making a mistake? Oops...I don't think so. Whatever causes MLCs all I know is that it is rarely, if ever, the LBSer. Or the MLC's dissatisfaction with the M, but their lives or some other weird problem of theirs. Mine is a workaholic and will likely never be enough to feel he can just "be". I hope to help him do that.

keep at this DB stuff, it, this will help you no matter what happens in the end, b/c it will help you be happier no matter what. And Please don't sweat being upbeat when you are not "off to Paris" and are only at home to read a good book and take a bath. You deserve that too, and besides, even YOU as busy and popular as you are, need a night off now and then.

As for the IL's.....hmmm, first, so you know, you are LUCKIER than most of us here. Many of our ILs' have dropped off the face of the earth b/c talking to the LBS makes THEM uncomfortable.....or they made things worse for the M in the first place. My mil is one reason I love living away from back east. oddly, my Father in law stuck it out and called the girls but my MIL (they're divorced....big shock....) acted as if we had died. I can only wonder how she must not know wth to do now that it looks like we're working things out. Sometimes I remind myself to be careful about what I wish for. Many people complain about the inlaws lack of involvement but honey it goes both ways. Maybe you should be reassuring to THEM that you will encourage any and all R's between them and your kids so they don't fear losing the kids so much. That will also have the benefit of not forcing them to "support" their son's idiotic behavior b/c they'll know they are not losing the kids if you guys split up.

BTW, how did you and your h resolve conflicts before all this? Our first years were good at that but lately, the past 5+ years our fights would escalate into attacks, and then we'd retreat, lick our wounds and really improve nothing...and resolve nothing. So, we need to get back on track.

With all the prayers you have been sending, I hope you ask what God's will is in all this. God may hate divorce, but he does want us to be happy. And he wants that for our children. At one point, I just ended each night and began each day with the prayer that God would take my pain and anger from me b/c they were too consuming for me to handle myself, and I asked him to heal our family. Now I also ask that He help me open my heart and mind to the possiblity of being happy up north, where I so did Not want to live, and to give it a chance. And to help me trust h as I once did.

fwiw, if my son ever pulls this crap, you can bet I'll have a "chat" with him about the facts of life -- and I hate the thought of someone doing that to grandkids I don't even have yet...
take care
j-

thanks again. and your inlaw's sound like jerks. I'm shocked your mil could just write you all off. but then, I've always been blessed with my in-laws. they are very kind, giving people. in fact, I've had to stop talking to my mil too much...literally, she is so disguested with her son, and wants to be so helpful to me, and is such a nice person/good listener, I was involving her waaaay too much with all of the crap going on with H and I. and yes, I do tell them often that anytime they want to see the kids, etc, just ask. I take the kids by to see his grandmother occasionally, I call my MIL to give updates from their lives. And I don't want to lose them, either, although I know eventually I might. we did all have a good time, and we are already planning another similar outing.

the revisions he is making on our marriage really anger me, but I'm going to remember the truths of it. no, he's not that good an actor. better than I realized, but not that good. He keeps saying since the twins were born, yadda yadda yadda. but just a year and a half ago the man was telling me how lucky he was to be with me, how lucky he was to be able to (ahem) with me for rest of our lives, etc, etc. He used to brag about me to his buddy, he used to be proud of his home/family/wife. I'm going to remind him why he was. And being hysterical/freaking out doesn't do that, so no more.

H will have a great time at the sox game. Due to his work, he gets to go often, and just took S5 last a couple of weeks ago. the twins are not that much fun to take yet, btdt. He'll be happy. But you are right, I'm going to stop assuming he's with her night and day. and realize that even when he is with her, its not all sunshine and roses.

and you are right, of course, about not obsessing over the details of their R. I remember when I first found out back in march, I was obsessed with every tiny little detail...I wanted to paint a virtual mosaic on my wall of every moment of their A. I didn't ask many questions, but did talk to my therapist about it. She said the same thing...if you want to divorce, knowing can help separate from the person. If you want to make your marriage work, knowing can be very detrimental. I also talked to my friend (a therapist) who explained why I had this overwhelming need to know. she explained how the brain functions, etc, and it was facinating and helped me to mostly step back from it. Pretty much every thing I've found out ends up bugging me, anyway. Like asking if he wore his ring...he didn't. why? I figured he felt too guilty wearing it. nope, she asked him to take it off. ouch. somehow, there was no good answer, but that one really bugged.

okay, going to head off to the gym so I can be showered/dressed/fabulous looking when he gets here with the kids. think I'm going to take them out to breakfast and then to the park. H took them out yesterday, but he loves going out to breakfast, so bound to be that whisper of regret for not being with us. okay, so probably not, but still, will be fun for me and that kids.

weird thing happened last night. I woke up at 2am and was reaching for him in the bed. I thought I had just had a bad dream, and wanted him to hold me. then I realized it wasn't a dream, all this crap is really happening. You'd think my subconscious would know that already. lol. took me a minute to remember reality.

another weird thing, for the 2nd night in a row, I found myself sleeping partly on his side of the bed. really stretched out, oddly enough all along the upper part of the bed. I never do that, not even when he travelled in the past. in fact, I am fairly small and he has really broad shoulders so I used to take up much less than half our queen size bed, and even since he's been gone haven't varied that.

well, off to another fight-free day. and it will be. I will make it so. And I'm going to make some phone calls and make some real plans. gonna gal and all that. I am.

okay, here's a wwyd?

when I first found out about the affair, or rather, found out it hadn't ended as he had sworn it had, I took down our wedding photos that were around the house..only a couple, but I just couldn't look at them, too painful. I miss the one in the hallway now. I'd like to put it back. but should I hold off? trying to show I'm moving on and GAL and all that, so thinking that might scream the opposite?

wwyd?

just have to say, H dropped the kids off and I was in a genuinely good mood. easier when the kids come home than when they leave, after all. he was all thrown off because I told the kids to keep their shoes on, we were going out to breakfast. I knew that would bug him...he loves going out to breakfast. lol. anyway, I was nice and chatty but rather superficial chatty, or chatty about the kids, and very busy. got the kids ready and he helped me get them in their seats. that's when he realized what a steam bath it is outside today...ha, have fun at the game, jerk. although I suppose I shouldn't gloat, he could always just blow it off and hang out at her place. ouch. okay, won't go there.

anyway, before I drove off, he said that his mom said I looked really good yesterday. yay! I did look good, but also think I was in good spirits. nice that both got back to him. hard to show him how good I am when he's not here, after all.

none of this really changes anything, but it really is nice not to fight and is nice to feel good about myself, and to have some fun. all of which I've done this weekend!