Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums We're separated--What Now? H coming today, what do I do when he asks how I am

update on today. I was a mess this morning...still upset from last night, got very little sleep (my own fault, finished harry potter, so not stress related). he didn't call to talk to the kids...bad sign. I was good, though, I didn't call him. that is big for me. took the kids to swim, hung out after at the little pool with my friend and her kids, had a nice time, then began wondering if I should call him and wish him luck on the interview.

got home, still wondering, when he called (well, he had called while I was gone, I called back). I had barely said hello when he said he was sorry about not calling, he'd had an early conference call. I didn't say anything, really, just said I had figured he was busy, no big deal. he asked how S5 was today in general and how he was at swim, and I told him he was good, much better, we had had a little talk and he was more himself today. I also told him I talked to my friend last night who recommended play therapy for him, or at least to get some names and have them ready and gave me some things to look for/log. She was concerned H would fight me on it, I didn't think he would, and he didn't. He sounded good about it. and said he was so sorry it was affecting S5. I just said, yeah. what else is there to say? I want to go off on him about being a self-centered ass, but not really db, is it?

anyway, it was a good conversation, I wished him, luck, even made him laugh a few times about something or other. so that was nice. again, doesn't change anything, maybe its even making it easier for him to leave, but at least things weren't horrible between us. and I think I did good, db wise, right? (god, I hate that I need so much affirmation, but I do...did I do okay?)

he should be in the interview now, and he to pick up the kids in a couple of hours. wish me luck.

In my company, their current situation would be no problem, but the new one would be a big red flag. If it became known that a purchaser had a relationship with a supplier, the account would be re-assigned.

Now I have to point out that you alternate between two types of negative thinking:

1) "H is hostile (or cold or distant); he is ready to leave."
2) "H and I had a pleasant interaction, that will make it easier for him to leave."

Listen, having pleasant interactions does NOT make it easier for him to leave. It might reduce his guilt, but it will make it more difficult for him to justify leaving you. And you can't guilt him into wanting to stay, anyway.

You have just achieved a course-correction with H. He asked about R status, he was frustrated that you aren't following his script, got mad, got distant, and then came back to semi-normal. He is now more accepting of your position on the relationship than he was before. Your 180's, your new activities, your outlook on life--these things will come up again in conversations with H, but since they will not have changed, he will not be surprised. Each time this happens (and it will happen multiple times) he will realize and believe a little more that this is the real you.

Hold your course. Steady as she goes.

Morgan,

Two thoughts. You wonder about whether DBing makes you a doormat, and whether being upbeat makes it easier for him to leave.

The 2nd point first. Do you think being sad/angry/in tears/screaming that he's a selfish ass would actually make it HARDER for him to leave? Hell, I think the fastest way to chase him off is to do those exact things. He'll never want to face that anger again and it does not matter if you are correct in feeling this way. Remember that he will never see your past exactly the same way you do. You have to give up control over that and you have to let go of the idea that everything YOU do means something in him will be manifestly different. Besides, he has not forgotten the times you have spewed. Speaking of spew, consider every convo without spewage, to be a small victory. Also, don't ever think that your kids won't appreciate your commitment to the M down the road even if things don't work out. They figure things out. I see that my kids are nice to h and at times, it bugs me. Yep, I know how that sounds and it took some courage for me to let go of that and put their needs ahead of my need for "justice." I mean, if "justice' means my kids feel alienated and disappointed in their dad, is that a good thing? No, it is not. It's best that they see us as models of forgiveness, redemption and man's ability to change and improve...even if your h stays with ow, or leaves her only to find yet another ow, if you are strong and dignified, you'll be setting an example for your children for when THEY face adversity in their lives, which they will certainly do. Your children will each be betrayed in life, handed an unfair task or burden, cheated out of something valuable, lied to, etc. We ALL face setbacks in life. They will too. You must show them that although we can be in intense personal emotional pain, it will not defeat us, nor will it be eternal. You will model this by showing them that one setback, even a huge one like a spouse changing and leaving, is not fatal to us.


As for DBing and being a doormat. Excellent question and one I"ve asked a 100 times. I mean, in my sitch I feel that h clearly put his career idiocy ahead of family time and cannot see how one would argue that. ALTHOUGH one man here said that h saw this job/credential as his "task" "mission" and didn't have much to do with us or his feelings. I now believe something in between, b/c I do see how much he missed us and I couldn't tell that at first. He was so busy the first 6 months I doubt he had much time to notice his loneliness until his goals were achieved and the DAY he took his boards, he called 3 times and asked if I'd come up, said he was "begging" me to come, etc....Like he looked around suddenly and said, "where is everyone?"

Did h "deserve" me DBing? Probably not. Is that the biggest factor? Don't know. Having a d10 with a dad in her life full time is worth something to me, quite a bit. Possibly having a better M is also a big important thing, obviously, but it isn't the only thing. I have to be alright. I am NOT presently putting up with anything serious from him and I doubt h will be a jerk again. Sure hope not. But in the big picture you have to keep asking yourself if you DO want the M back. As long as you do that, keep the road home paved and smooth. The issue is whether you'll change your mind. You don't know yet, but you can keep praying about that. I'll support either path you choose, honestly. I don't know whether I could do what you are doing. I didn't have an OW to my knowledge but I must admit to you now, that if I had, I might well have chosen a different path. Sorry, but it's true. Although an ow would have been more understandable to me, but gross. I mean, I cannot wrap my brain around a man choosing a JOB over being with his family full time for 2 years.....yet if he had felt "love" or chemistry for ow, at least I'd get that. Truth be told, just here, between us and this bb, I have felt "love" for an OM in the past but did not consummate it and went to counseling, saw a chaplain, etc. (in lieu of hasty adultery). The value in that experience is that I can honestly say when I look back at that situation 15+ years ago, that I feel as if I was insane. I mean, wth was I thinking? I am embarrassed to say that I thought it was true at the time, and I didn't know OM well at all, no matter what great talks I thought we had....looking back I see that h was too busy with his internship, we had moved and I didn't have many friends, OM was Very Attentive in the meantime, we were at war and I was getting deployed, not H --and h was why I was in the military in the first place!....geez, talk about UNfair sacrifice....and who knows what else. Oh yeah, OM looked like Kevin Costner and was incredibly attractive to me, while h was tired and irritable when he was at home, which wasn't often...I sound like the mistress character (Sarah Jessica Parker) in First Wives Club..."I'm not feeling special...". Yikes, how mortifying.

SO, when I recall that insanity, I think WHAT IF I had not gone to counselling and WHAT IF the OM did not get transferred out before something really regrettable had happened, and or what if my h had found out I was in an EA (I guess that's an EA...never thought of it that way,...which is also intriguing....and a bit hypocritical of me come to think of it). It could have spun out of control so fast. I could have lost so much. I am glad time passed and things settled back down. As a stay at home mom, your opportunities for this are less and so you may not have had the same level of attraction to another. But you will and that is not a bad thing. But you aren't there yet, I know.

Here's the thing. DBIng for ME, is a once in a life time event. I won't be able to endure another episode like this and I know I won't. Somehow, since it terrifies me less, I feel some peace in that. Deep down, we all know there is a level beyond which we cannot go. Sadly, this experience will likely teach you where that level is. IF you reach it, you'll know. You are getting close, but if you can salvage some sort of pleasant, REDUCED EXPECTATIONS kind of R with the "co-parent" of your children, it'll help no matter what. Don't let on that you are working on the M. I don't agree that is the DB way. I mean, double check and ask around here on this BB. Folks? Here's my question...is Morgan at the place where she can start acting as if the D IS coming, and that she is regretful but resigned to it...she is now starting to accept it, looking around at her options, her soon to be freer lifestyle, and even starting to feel anxious about moving forward in her life--ACTING AS IF she is evaluating her life and what she offers and seeing that she offers quite a lot indeed. In fact, she is a great catch, she is a "woman only a fool would leave..." I just cannot see how this would hurt her, no matter what her h does. IF he sends out feelers and probes, which I predict he'll do in time (months, not weeks, Morgan) she can assess that THEN....but she'll have her dignity, not feeling like a doormat, and still be open to the idea of h changing back into the old guy, and proving it over time, and reconciling...if that comes.

Morgan, You speak of just "wanting HIM back...your best friend...etc." Is this guy your best friend now? You want tHIS MAN back?

You know you don't. You just hope the "real" man comes back but we don't know if this change is permanent. Could be. If so, what do you want then?

THing is you have not replaced the vision you've had of the "old guy" with an image of your life without him. But if he had been killed in a car accident, and some time had passed, what would you be doing with your time other than worrying about him? Try really hard to do some of those things now, or as soon as possible.

good luck,
j-

thanks mike and 25yrsmlc. you've both given me a lot to think about. will be printing and mulling over both tonight.

unfortunately, things did not go well with H today when he came to get the kids. I was upbeat and such and he started telling me about how things went. sounds like the job is his if he wants it, but its going to be a big change, so he has a lot to think about. a few things I didn't think about is yes, the money is a lot more, but there are a lot of things that will also not be covered...like a car. he has a company one right now, they don't have that. so I said to him (and yeah, I did it on purpose, I'm afraid to say), "so we'll need to buy a car."

he corrected me immediatly, "I'll need to buy a car." and here is where I went even more wrong. I asked if that meant he thought things were over completely between us, because I pointed out, I still think in terms of "we." he got pissy and said he didn't know where my head was at...funny, since I was just very clear about that. I was clear again. he didn't want to hear it. no, I didn't plead or beg, just stated I still am hoping we can work things out. He was pissy at me for the rest of the time. I was very complimentary about his skills and such, and we did mull the job a bit, and what he could garner from it, some pros/cons and such. but apparently that last thing didn't go over. that and I madt he mistake of flinching at the health care. we have really good health care right now, this company does blue cross/blue shield HMO. sorry, not a big HMO fan, and I haven't heard great things even if its bc/bs. someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I shouldn't have done it. I know that now. I wasn't even saying it in terms of it being a dealbreaker, just pointing out like I would have in our past life the pros/cons. apparently pointing out pros was good, cons not so much.

anyway, he was pissy to me the rest of the time. In fact, to the point that 25yearsmlc point about me even wanting him still kept playing in my mind. no, this is not the man who was my best friend/lover/life partner/husband. this is the guy who is a total ass to me. He spent most of the rest of the time on his cell phone to various people, laughing and being the H I knew and loved, but as soon as he would hang up, he was a jerk again. I did my best db and was upbeat and busy and had fun with the kids while they were still here, but he had a look of pure hatred every time he looked at me. this reads like I was bitchy or hard on him at all when he was telling me stuff. I wasn't at all. I was supportive completely. even when I asked a few questions, I did it nicely, supportively, not like I was saying any part of it was bad. I guess it doesn't matter, he magnifies anything I say/do, except the good stuff.

so here I sit. they are gone, I'm alone and crying, because its what I do every time they first leave for the weekend. I didn't choose to become a part time mother, but I don't get the choice, do I?

and you know what I can't stop thinking about? that the end of our marriage will be a cause for celebration for him. how's that for a kick in the gut? what is ripping me up is the cause for joy for him. and yeah, maybe there is guilt and some sadness, but still, its his choice. even if I end it eventually, it will still be because of his choices.

okay, know I shouldn't call him, but just did. I checked out the bc/bs website and our docs are listed, so that is good. he sounded happy I looked it up. I know it could have waited until I talked to the kids tomorrow, but I didn't. again, seems to be a night of missteps.

no more tonight. none.

Morgan,

breathe easier. At least you see the mistakes almost right after you make them. Why on earth are you STILL telling him you want the M to work? He isn't asking you really. He is NOT....and even if he were asking, the true answer is you do not know anymore. Has it once Helped you to repeat how you are still "working on the M" when he denies there is a M? If anything, it seems to be worsening his behavior. Take that feedback as a big hint. Drop the matter and let him see the truth that treating you this way HAS changed your feelings....of Course it has!

Just relax about the questions for health care and for God's sake, why can't you let your L work ALL that factual/legal/financial stuff out? That is why you hire and pay them/us. Don't worry about it. Let the L do their jobs and it distances you from most of what will infuriate him later when you actually don't accept every request he makes or you dare to "expect" your fair share, etc.

As for the "celebration" he will have when the D becomes final IF it does....don't count on that. Do NOT count on that. it'll be the start of OW's big pressure to make her "an honest woman"...he'll feel that pressure and the need to be "right" will be peaking if he is attacked. LET HIM GO so he can come back....or if that fails to get him back, it won't be due to your chasing him.

He has failed at least as much as you have in the M and he KNOWS this and will MAYBE be relieved, but also guilt ridden and sad even if he believes he "had " to do it. the kinder, calmer more serene woman you become, the harder it'll be to stay convinced of that position. hang in there.
j-

thanks. okay, here is where I get confused. I thought the db book meant making it clear that I was GAl and all that, but also making it clear that I do want the M to work.

I do see that it seems to be worsening his behavior, at least as of this week. prior to that, he seemed to be on the same page as me. guessing that it has to do with the fact that he has recommitted to her and has weekend plans with her (total guesses, gut instincts here, but lets just say my gut has been right 9x out of 10 since the affair came out).

he still has yet to ask for a D...although I think its coming. so what do I do when he says stuff like, "where is your head at about us?" I thought telling him, like I did the other day, that I want our M to work, but I can't let it stop me from being me/living my life/etc was what I was supposed to be doing. and honestly, although I don't want this weird doppleganger that he has been showing me, I do want my M to work out...I want my H back, the man I know and love. the man that I see interact with every other person except for me right now.

the spiral continues. I called his mom today...to check on how she was doing, but then I probed a bit about whether he was gone for the weekend or not. on the pretence of finding out if she had "someone there" to help her if she is not doing well (she's been ill).

and I called H today to tell him his computer came (laptop had crashed and company was sending it back to him here). could have just told him it tonight when I talk to the kids. and when he said they were off to the beach today, I asked which one. he sounded uncomfortable by my asking...turns out he's going to one of our favorite ones, but its further than where he usually takes the kids. and its one that ow has a beachhouse at. so I'm twisting my guts over whether or not he has arranged to meet her and her son there. keep in mind, he's promised me he won't do that until papers are signed. but then, he's promised me a lot of things that haven't quite lived up, hasn't he?

need to get back on track. no more calls today. I'm making myself ill about him going away with her this weekend...trust me, I have it so built up in my mind that he's practically flying her to paris. but I'm going to try to put it out of my mind and work on myself and continue my 180s, so if he is just blowing hot/cold to see my reaction (thanks, mike, again, for that image, it helps), I am consistent. its funny, my friend keeps telling me about how he is acting like a child, clasic mlc stuff, and she reminds me that with any child, its consistency that works.

I've been busy today, at least...sorting thru old kids stuff and selling it on my twins club, but hey, its useful and I'm busy. going to a movie tonight, and just called some friends to come to dinner on sunday...waiting to hear back. hopefully they will. the weekend isn't going to be nice enough to do the other things I thought of to keep busy/have fun.

breathing in, breathing out, breathing in, breathing out.

my above post still stands, also...should I really stop telling him I want our M to work out? I'm only telling him when he asks. but I see 25yearsmlc's point, too. am wondering if I am misunderstanding things in db, or if I just need to regroup and do something different.

Morgan,

I'm not positive of anything. Except that what you've said has not worked. And for the life of me, isn't it ironic that it's YOU who has to decide how the M is going? I mean, isn't HE the one screwing up the vows? Seems he wants you to do the dirty work, he'll push you until YOU file for a divorce...don't let him goad you into it.

In the meantime, are the bills getting paid? Is that better than being divorced and having fewer bills paid? My sister in law was the first person to ask me, "J, if your h is paying the bills and you have the kids all you want, and the house, what's the rush about filing for a divorce?" She had a point and it made "waiting things out" a lot easier. Meantime, I made some choices. I knew I wanted d18 to finish high school so I had a type of time line in mind. After that, I"d see what the scoop was. I enrolled in a class I had wanted to take and I noticed that H noticed it and he'd ask me how it was going. I signed up for a DANCE class and he only asked me ONCE about that....hmm. I also began looking for teaching jobs overseas, other states and around here, but nothing up where he was. I very indirectly let him see that...boy, I KNOW that motivated him to start thinking about abandoning his Heavenly job up there if it meant we'd be somewhere else, not waiting for him...but when I seemed happy like an old friend was calling when he'd call, I'd give him an update on the kids, if he asked me about MY life, I'd say something positive about MY future, nothing too detailed or obvious and a little mysterious, and then I'd get OFF the phone as soon as it wasn't rude, (you know, I'm busy and all) put the kids on....but in our sitch, as long as the bills were getting paid, or I knew my new income would cover what we lacked if it wasn't enough, I felt safe enough to wait. I DID file for a separation way back when, in order to protect marital assets--can't sell them off without consent. It did not help our M as far as I can tell. But I felt less vulnerable. I didn't know if he'd go bonkers and sell off the house for a partnership in Alaska, etc. I was okay waiting things out with us, to an extent, but I refused to risk the kids rights just to keep peace. You know, enough is enough. H got mad, but wth? I still feel I'd have been a doormat to have done nothing but we are in California and

I never said "I want the M to work!" after the first 6 months. Just acted like a happy woman when I would see him here and did my DB coach's advice "making the home a warm place" to contrast with the coldness of his single life. Kind of like letting the warm weather, the warmth in the home, be so fun and loving that only an idiot wouldn't miss the laughs and the tender moments. Also She said that if he brought up living up there I could change topics "sounds like you've found all that you wanted" there, and he never once said, "Yep, I'm fine".

He always said "NO, I want you guys here..." blah blah blah....or he'd stutter. I would turn it around and around on him in a pleasant way if I could. I'd veer off R talk or talk of the future as it related to him and "us". I took trips with the kids, had guests at the house and basically made h "jealous" of what he was missing. Didn't always work but if you can pull off whatever your goal is 4 out of 5 times, you should get an A+ for that. DId I envy what he was doing? Rarely, like when I was over loaded with responsibility or he'd forget a bill and I'd be so pissed that he couldn't do ONE thing other than his "JOB"... but when my "program" worked, I'd be calm at almost all costs. If he got mad or defensive AND became rude to me, I'd get off the phone with a healthy assertion like "I don't deserve to be talked to like that" or "Call me when you are calmed down" and I'd get the heck off the phone. THis did not always work but eventually did. I also would stop him when he'd revise things a bit too much. It IS important to own whatever role WE have had in the M's problems. IF I HAD screwed up something I'd say stuff like "I'd do things differently if I had them to do over" or "Yes, I made some mistakes but I learn from them" and if I have addressed a problem, then it isn't a problem any more and I'm not gonna keep rehashing it. If I have fixed the car, I don't want to keep talking about the bad brakes we HAD, because they're fixed now, kwim? So I wouldn't let him go there for long. But I DID make sure he'd see an example of the "new" me at least once. Didn't want him to worry justifiably, that I'd revert to my own negatives. Nor did I want to.


Even if there had been an OW< my h would have missed the kids. Plus, you need to do some positive realistic assessing of yourself as a partner. he didn't marry you and have 3 kids with you and buy a house with you b/c you are a bitch. I know I'm smarter than most women but h could always find another MD with more work stuff in common. BUt I make him laugh, expose him to other things in life and am the mother of his children and his friend of 26+ years. I can tell by how you write that you are articulate and intelligent. You are also loving, and I have picked up on some wit too. You have history with him too. Go on, write a few true affirmations down and don't forget to add that you have character. I know, like you, that we would never do this to our H's and kids. Even with my crazy period it was my guilt and the thought of making my kids cry, that kept me from going over the edge.

You have similar advantages. But instead of going there, you are instead fantasizing that the OW and he are going to Paris, and having great constant uninterrupted sex that is totally fulfilling to both and that NOTHING about the newness and unfamiliarity is bad (trust me, there is a Lot to be said for knowing your lover) and that they are laughing and loving in perfection.....Ummm, that ain't true, but more importantly you have no control over it. Put a stop sign in your face and stop going there. You are not realistic about it, and you are eating yourself up with it. It's gross, and you are making it worse. Make plans for what YOU will be doing and do your best to focus ONLY on that if you can. REcall what I said about my insane R with OM, okay? Re-read my craziness. I'm thankful I'm not in your h's position b/c believe it or not, it's worse than your position in the long run.
The only good thing about it was that I lost some of my black and white way of looking at moral issues and judgementalism. That "almost A" said more about what I was lacking in my life than my h or M. Yes our M needed much more attention from him but I needed more passion in MY life. So, I took up theatre and guess what? It helped ME and helped US...

Not telling him you are wanting the M to work is not giving up. Can't you say something IF HE ABSOLUTELY PUSHES YOU into an anwer (and what is up with that? He mistreats you only to ask if he has finally done enough for YOU to do his work and end the M?) that you wish your M could be saved, or that the man you thought he was would snap out of this....and leave it at that. He'll know that if he does, there might be a chance. But IS there really a chance you'll take him back if he keeps doing this? That's a question to know the answer to. It just seems a bit transparent for him to keep asking you to shoulder the responsiblity. It's like a little kid who keeps breaking the rules only to ask if you still love him NOW??

I am not saying to make an ultimatum unless you can promise 2 things: First, that you mean it and will do what take if it doesn't go your way and 2nd - to know that chances are it will not go your way with an ultimatum. I think his fear of losing you may motivate him down the road, but that fear won't come from his constant asking you what the temperature of the R is....it'll be by him seeing you GAL and acting as if you have Not actually been thinking of the R much lately...as if you are fine without him in the house, I mean, you are getting used to it and the good sides of it and even though he's a good guy who makes you laugh, which maybe you miss but since you have Other friends who alsomake you laugh, wth? So, you're fine with or without him b/c of Who you are and what you offer that he knows is true, when he lets himself look there. Having self respect does not mean you "punish" him by filing, but it may mean you eventually file. It just won't be to "punish" him.
Do what is best for YOU and the kids and resign yourself to the possibility that it is over and that you will still be fine. PLEASE don't think you'll be letting him off the hook, by not falling apart. Isnt' the idea of him being sort of comfortable around you, and the kids, sensible? THe more he feels "safe" around his own family and you, the more he'll see you as a safe zone. Even if he ends up divorcing. DO you honestly feel he'll never fight with OW and that she has no fault? Were you two ever happy? If so, let that resurface but don't keep letting him know you'll still be there no matter what...has it helped yet? Remember to monitor what does work and what does not work and change your behavior accordingly. Funny how siple that sounds but damn if I didn't repeat negative behaviors a 1000 times and STILL have to catch myself not looking critically at him...and I'm a smartie pants with a law degree!! But I'm an idiot too, so I'm working on it.

j-

thanks, 25yearsmlc. I printed this last night and read it about 3 times, and probably will read it 3 more today. you have a lot of wisdom to offer and I greatly appreciate it.

I feel a little more resolved this morning. and yeah, for now at least, his paychecks are still hitting the bank as always, and the bills are getting paid. very little has changed, except for him being here. which is huge. I do need to resign myself to it being over, or at least the strong possibility of it being over. and I need to truly move on, but oh how hard that is. will keep looking at the positives of that, keep doing my 180s, and see what is working/not working.

he does want me to do the hard part. I know that. he's like a little kid, doesn't want to do for himself that which is hard. and he resents me like crazy for not just doing it.

I was a little panicked this week because he is going away with her this weekend...at least that is my assumption. in fact, I half expected him to come here last night after he put the kids to bed (his mom would watch them) to have the d talk with me. he didn't. and so I expected it when he dropped the kids off. he didn't. I was upbeat, had been busy all morning (gym, grocery store, picking blueberries, etc) so was busy and in a good mood when he came by.

he was okay for the most part while he was here. he told me he was 90/10 for taking the job and got pissed when I asked one question (wasn't important, apparently, but I just asked what an acronym he used meant). so he left, had the decency to take his golf clubs (granted, he could and likely is golfing with her, but I was afraid he wasn't golfing at all and wouldn't think to even take them as a ruse). my youngest son started bawling after he left, wanted to say one more goodbye, so I called really quick and H sounded angry...really angry, that I called. he hadn't left angry, so that was weird.

overall things are status quo. except that the 2 youngest have told me there was a lady at the beach yesterday, and I'm sick that maybe she was there. I asked my 5 year old and he says no, but then he sounds confused by the question. so part of me wants to call H and ask if she was there, but I'm trying hard to not do that. I shouldn't, right?