I don't remember sex, but let me share a "what if" for you to consider.
What is rape? My understanding is that most often it is a crime of anger against women and not a crime of lust. There may be reasons he could not relate to you in the same way he 'needed' to relate to these women. You are a symbol of motherhood, something pure. These women were open season for his release of some kind of demon.
Did your H hate himself so badly that he had to own and abuse women to feel better about himself? Maybe
Did it work and solve his internal issues? Think not.
What was your H using these women for? How did he feel about himself prior, and after? He needs to get this all out with the T. You need to know what the T thinks at some point if you are going to consider continuing the M. He needs to find another way to deal with those demons beside cheating. You can't be that kind of victim for him as a solution. If he can't find a way to cope with this addiction, he is no better for you than a person addicted to hard core drugs, or rape for that matter.
I think a lot of your answers lie in what the T says. Should you delay the D? I think you need to let the T know that there is a very short window of opportunity here for you to get some professional perspective on what is going on. Is he being honest, or trying to fool everyone? What is at the root of this behavior, and can it be treated? If so, how long should you expect him to spend outside the M getting his help? How will you get some kind of assurance that the treatment is working? What book would the T suggest you read to understand him better?
Sorry to think this, but many addictions result in a life long treatment of one day at a time. Can a T tell you this will be any different? Will you be able to accept that as an answer? Would you be able to accept him as a recovering addict of any other kind, one day at a time? This comes down to being more about you than him.
On a strictly practical note - even if you decide you don't want him back, wouldn't he be a better father and future co-parent if he got help for his problem? And it seems like, if you told him forget it, you're not taking him back - he wouldn't bother to try.
So why not encourage and support him through this stage - even if it means you have to fake an intention you don't really feel? You can always tell him later that it's just too much for you to get over, you thought you could but you can't. Meanwhile, him getting help and getting away from OW will help ensure that your kids don't end up with a stepmom who would send her own 2 year old away so she could have an affair with a married man!!!
I don't want this to sound like plain old "piling it on", but you should also consider the 'learning all you can' exercise for another reason.
Giving this a little more time to play itself out can be better for the kids in another way. Discuss it with your L if you want more opinions of course.
If he is considered sick by this new T, and it sounds like he may be prone to living in the gutter with these volunteer victims of his abuse ... he is not a person you want your kids to be exposed to. Not him, or his partners in this lifestyle. You may need to extract enough clinical information and professional input from this T to arm your L. Keep your journal of these conversations he has with you, and his changing stories, his expanded revelations of unacceptable behavior, etc.
I do feel sorry for him as he sounds lost and unable to control himself in this at the moment, just as he is unable to erase the past or control you in the D. But his problems are not automatically yours to share. He must become responsible for his actions and mental health. He may be trying. But will he succeed? Why did it take you filing the D?
You should be prepared to not just complete that process if it is what you choose, but unfortunately for him, you should be prepared to keep him from exposing the kids to these kind of people. If you can prove they are not just good honest women he fell in love with; but a part of an unhealthy behavioral addiction ... you should have an increased control in any kind of visitation he might hope for.
Again, talk to your L. See if there are other valid reasons to give this some time and see where it goes.
we got home last night and I sent the kids in the house. I aske dhim to call this girl and tell her that it was over between them. He refused saying that I was going to leave him anyway so what did it matter. I asked him again- he still refused so I asked him to leave and he did. I
I too think this could possibly be an addiction. But it's not my area...so just a thought...and that is after reading the article Breton put a link to on a thread last night. Below I will put the link and an excerpt from the article--it's rather long.
I see him needing a lot of reassurance--A LOT. This is indicative in his fear that you will just leave him anyway.
You need to lay off from pressuring about the affair--no asking him to contact her...and if you do ask...stop when he says okay or no. If he says he will, but doesn't...stay quiet. It is not your job. He needs to handle it. So, he is afraid you will leave him. Then when he refused to do as you requested...you sent him away.
His fear came true.
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I wanted to call her but did not. I did send her a myspace message telling her that he told me about them.
Absolutely No contacting the OW. Stay out of it. It's his mess...he needs to clean it up at his won pace.
And by the way...I LOVE this OW. She's the ebst sort for an LBS. She's doing everything wrong if she wants to have apermanent relationship with your husband. Sit back and watch the movie...cause this is a good one. She's over the top. I had one too--faked prgnancy, threatened indirect suicide...I felt so relieved that he picked such a doosey!
You can win this one easily--if you sit back and stop fighting and trying to compete...cause there's no contest.
I've pasted a few different excerpts below. Below . A link follows
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Q: Do affairs ever serve a positive function, not to excuse any of the damage they do? Dr. G: Affairs are often a chance for people to try out new behaviors, to dress in a different costume, to stretch and grow and assume a different role. In a long-term relationship, we often get frozen in our roles. When young couples begin at a certain level of success and go on to achieve all kinds of things, the new person sees them as they've become, while the old person sees them as they were. The unfortunate thing is that the way a person is different in the affair would, if incorporated into the marriage, probably make their spouse ecstatic. But they believe they're stuck; they don't know how to create that opportunity for change within the marriage. A woman who was sexually inhibited in marriage, perhaps she married young and had no prior partners may find her sexuality in an affair, but her husband would probably be delighted to encounter that new self. Q: How do you handle this? Dr. G: After an affair, I do not ask the question you would expect. The spouse always wants to know about "him or her". "What did you see in her that you didn't see in me?" Or, "what did you like about him better?" One man asked, "was it that he had a bigger penis?" I always ask about "you": "What did you like about yourself in that other relationship?" How were you different? And, of the way that you were in that other relationship, what would you like to bring back so that you can be the person you want to be in your primary relationship? How can we foster that part of you in this relationship? Q: That's a surprising question. How did you come to know that's the question to ask? Dr. G: There is an attraction in the affair, and I try to understand what it is. Part of it is the romantic projection: I like the way I look when I see myself in the other person's eyes. There is positive mirroring. An affair holds up a vanity mirror, the kind with all the little bulbs around it; it gives a nice rosy glow to the way you see yourself. By contrast, the marriage offers a make-up mirror; it magnifies all your wrinkles and pores, every little flaw. When someone loves you despite the fact that they can see all your flaws, that is a reality-based love. In the stories of what happened during the affair, people seem to take on a different persona, and one of the things they liked best about being in that relationship was the person they had become. The man who wasn't sensitive or expressive is now in a relationship where he is expressing his feelings and is supportive. Q: Can those things be duplicated in the marriage? Dr. G: That's one of the goals, not to turn the betrayed spouse into the affair partner, but to free the unfaithful spouse to express all the parts of himself he was able to experience in the affair. I see a lot of men who are married to very competent women and having affairs with very weak women. They feel: "this person needs me." They put on their red cape and do a lot of rescuing. They feel very good about themselves. That makes me sad, because I know that even though their partner may be extremely competent, she wants to be stroked too. She wants a knight in shining armor. Perhaps she hasn't known how to ask for it, or the ways she's asked have pushed him away.
Q: What do people seek in an affair partner? Dr. G: Either we choose somebody very different from our partner, or we choose somebody like our partner used to be, a younger version. A woman married to a really sweet guy who helps with the dishes, who is very nurturing and very secure, may at some point see him as boring and get interested in the high-achieving, high-energy man who may even be a bit chauvinistic. But if she's married to the man with the power and the status, then she's interested in the guy who is sensitive and touchy-feely, who may not be as ambitious. Q: Is this just the nature of attraction? Dr. G: It has to do with the fact that people really want it all. Probably the only way to get it all is to be in more than one relationship at the same time. We have different parts of ourselves. The other flip-flop in choice of affair partner reflects the fact that the marriage often represents a healing of our family wounds. Somebody who lacked a secure attachment figure in their family of origin chooses a mate who provides security and stability. It's a healthy, resilient part of ourselves that seeks that balancing. But after we've mastered that, we often want to go back and find somebody like that difficult parent and make that person love us. There is a correlation between the nature of the attachment figure and the affair partner; the person is trying to master incomplete business from childhood. As a result, some people will choose an affair partner who is difficult, temperamental, or unpredictable. Under those circumstances, the unfaithful partner is often caught in a triangle.
Q. What is happening in those relationships that are parental or in other ways not equal? Dr. G: Sometimes there is an over-functioning spouse and an under-functioning spouse. One partner takes on a lot of responsibility and then resents it. The more a person puts energy into something and tries to work on it, the more committed to the relationship that person is. The other partner, who is only semi-involved in the relationship, is freer to get involved in an affair, because they're not as connected to the marriage. This is interesting because the popular notion is that the person who has the affair wasn't getting enough at home. The reality is that they weren't giving enough at home. Q. How do you handle that? Dr.G: In rebuilding that relationship, more equity has to be created. The issue isn't what can the betrayed spouse do to make the partner happy, it's what can the unfaithful spouse do to make their partner happy. In research and in practice, my colleague Tom Wright, Ph.D., and I have observed that when you compare who does more, who is more understanding, who is more romantic, who enjoys sex more, the affair is almost always more equitable than the marriage. Usually, the person was giving more, more time, more attention, more compliments, in the affair than in the marriage. If they can come back and invest in the marriage what they were doing in the affair, then they'll feel more. There is some research showing that people are more satisfied in equitable relationships. When relationships are not equitable, even the over-benefitted partners are not as satisfied as those in equitable relationships. Certainly the under-benefited partners are not satisfied.
I've only seen this thread, because I saw Ellie posted, so I don't know all the background, but I'm going to chime in nonetheless. My kids are home this week so I have to post and run. We have prime trampoline weather here today!
You have to make a decision about what you're going to do and only you can make it. I believe it would be best for you to communicate it to him honestly. If you're unsure whether you can try with him any more, then say that. If you are willing to try, say that. I do not recommend telling him you will try if that is not what you believe in your heart. It might be a way to keep an eye on him, but I believe it would only backfire in the end.
Maybe it's sexual addiction, notoriously difficult to treat, and maybe it's something else. (My ex-wife had at least three OM in the last few months before she moved out. Is she addicted to sex? To relationships? To "danger?" I have no idea.) Your H's actions sound very much like those of someone who does have a demon pursuing him.
I would suggest that you get some face-time with someone whom you trust to go through your feelings and your options about this. If you decided to stick it out, it would be very helpful for you to have some feedback from your H's counselor or therapist.
Was2sad,
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What is rape? My understanding is that most often it is a crime of anger against women and not a crime of lust.
Rape is a crime of sexual violation against anyone, male or female, child or adult.
Thanks,
Joe
My sitch More importantly, Light A Million Candles
I, unfortunately, know more about sexual addiction than I would like to. H told me that he thought he might be a sex addict, so I did some research on it, but now he says he's not. Whatever - he doesn't even know what's going on his own head.
In any case, it is treatable, and it seems that it is not the same as other addictions because it is easier to stay away from the source (i.e. porn). If one is addicted to food, for example, it's impossible to stay away from it completely. Obviously, B can't stay away from sex completely, but if he figures out what his triggers are, it will help.
Lisa, my heart goes out to you. This is so difficult, but the good news is that, if he is a sex addict, he CAN be treated and, more importantly, he WANTS to be treated. This is much less intractable than MLC or than a psych problem like narcissism.
Honey, I know you love this man. It sounds to me like he really does love you, too, but he just can't control himself. I am not trying to justify his behaviour, but just to make sense of it. I do see hope for you. If it is an addiction, it would explain why he came back to you and then left. The idea of not "using" you for things that would give him satisfaction, but not you, only makes sense if he really loves and respects you.
I would suggest letting him go to this new T alone, and then - if the T agrees that that is the problem - going as a couple. That way, you can ask all the questions you have of an expert, and in front of B, so he won't feel like you're hiding anything.
I do wish you the best, and in the meantime, I'm sending you big (((hugs))).
~ Nicola
Life isn't about finding yourself; it's about creating yourself My thread: Trusting God's Plan
Thanks to everyone who read and posted to me. It means alot and I got alot of view points to think on. I truly don't know how to handle this- He tells me to trust him and then he lies to me again. He called me after he got off work last night and we talked. I told him how I was having a hard time with this and that the ow was chiming in on how she wasn't going to give up on getting him- He said she did text him that he should just give he a chance to prove to him how much she loves him and that if he chooses not to be with her then he has lost the best thing in his life. I can't believe she would say that but I guess these women are in a world of their own. This is another woman's husband she is talking to , do these women get it? He said he did not respond- I have my doubts. I tell him that I don't know if I can trust him and he gets mad at me. We hung up and I had to go uptown- While I am going uptown I pass him going towards my home. Now he works in a town 20 minutes away and his brother who he says he is staying with lives there too so he would have no reason to come to the town I live in- well I called him and he could hear that I was in the car- he asked where I was going and I told him. I asked if he made it home yet and he said I am headed to my brother's house right now. I asked if he was in LO(the town his brothwer lives in and that my H works in) he told me yes, where else would I be? I said Lake City(my town), he said why would I be in LC? I said I don't know but I just passed you. He got upset at me- He got caught in another lie and got mad at me. He said all I have beendoing is telling him that he is not trustworthy and nagging him and I was a bitch and needed to grow up. He then hung up and I did not call him back and he did not call me back. He did try to call around 10:00pm and he called 3 times but I did not answer. I have not been able to sleep or really eat since all of this. I did call him this morning at work, he was nice but when I told him that I was trying to work through my feelings he got mad and said that I could go to hell- that the ow could go to hell and that he only cared about the kids and himself that nobody would ever get his heart again. Hetold me that I wasn't worth the effort and he was sick of trying to kiss my *ss to make me trust him and believe what he says. He said that I never loved him and if I did then I would give him the benefit of the doubt. I saked him if that is how he really felt and he said well it's what I wanted to hear so he told me. I just don't get it- He doesn't see how hard this is for me? He thinks that everything can just go away , I don't get it- I am so hurt. But I guess I let him do this to me- I truly don't get why he tells me to grow up
Lisa
Me:37 H:38 6 kids first bomb 8/05 (ow involved) piecing 7/06 second bomb 3/07 ow involved wash rinse repeat.... huge move to start over 2/11 more affairs H left for good 8/12
B is simply projecting all of HIS negative thoughts, feelings and actions he is feeling onto you. These are really all clues to what is going on in his head. When he says, YOU are not worth the effort, he is saying, he feels HE is not worth the effort. I would put more emphasis on the things he says while crying, than while angry. BUT, filter all of it until he proves himself with actions.
When he lashes out don't instantly defend yourself. Validate! Let him know you are listening and if things get out of hand let him know it is unacceptable and set boundaries. As humans and emotional creatures we get angry. Don't let yourself be pulled into the emotional trap. By confronting him in a lie, it caused him to project his own negative actions on to you. ** He said all I have beendoing is telling him that he is not trustworthy and nagging him and I was a bitch and needed to grow up. ** I read, Lisa, I'm an ass, I feel like no one trusts me, I wish I could grow up and do things right." Also, recognize he WILL sway back and forth from good and righteous, to down and dirty. Your role is to provide him consistency. Consistently be the one he can trun to, the one he can follow, the role model he never had to develop the relationship skills his family life did not provide.
His role is to recognize the consistency and gravitate toward it. In time, the hope is he will grasp it and recognize it's virtue. He will lie, he will disappoint and don't trust him with your heart while he is fighting his own battles. Instead, show him you believe in him by assisting him any way you can. Make the effort, he will see it, hopefully he will respond to it.
You and he are trying to reverse years of issues, many of which started long ago. This will be hard for both of you, but it will be far more difficult for him to turn things around. You have shown him how committed you are to family, he knows you are the rock of the relationship. I'm cetain he has signs of depression and along with that he feels inadequate. When he begins to beleive in himself, just as we as DBer's have been taught to do, he will recognize his accomplishments. Baby steps. He needs to build on each and every small success he has, Help him recognize them and praise them when they oocur. Nuture the good, validate, but ignore the bad.
