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GEL,


"What is her past like? I mean, any history of abuse? Stable home life? What were her parents like?

I'm wondering if this isn't something as Cobra so often refers to FOO (family of origin) issues rearing it's head in your marriage."

Raised in a quesi stable home. Stay at home mom, traveling dad.
The family, in my view is stable and loving, but Mom had treated Dad much the same way as my wife treats me. There does not seem to be any real intamacy there. No outward displays of affection, when home, he works, etc. etc.
My experience is that my parents are very very much in love and openly affectionate. They truly LOVE to be with each other and enjoy each others company more than anyone elses. Both sets of grandparents were the same way as well. This is the model that I had to work with.
Hers is very different than mine. So she has no idea what that kind of intamacy looks like.
Thing is , she was very affectionate with me during our courtship. No suprise there. But it seemed that all that changed once the rings were on. Now all of a sudden I was no longer good enough, and it has been that way ever since. I am /have always been in the role of playing catch-up

Fiji,

"I wonder if she's swallowed her feelings for so long that she is very repressed, flat, and joyless. I have no idea -- I'm just asking. I suspect that you are right -- that her complaints about housekeeping are not the real problem, not even close. But, I also wonder if it is more than you she is angry or frustrated with -- you're just a convenient target.

I've experienced a lot of pain from the rejection. I'm starting to think, partly from what LD spouses have written around here, that it's not that my wife "does not care" -- she just has no idea, or somehow manages to evade, the extent of how much it hurts. Some consolation. Not much. But some."

This is kind of what I was thinking also. She comes from a family that is very loving and supportive, but it lacks deeper intamacy. That coupled with an inability to look inward efectively/objectivly, seems to point to a situation where I am mostly a target rather than a legit problem. I am not using that to mitigate my own issues in the relationship, mind you, but it would answer some questions.

Bottom line is I am still,basicly living a monastic life in the context of my marriage and now, due to the prolonged state of the forced celebacy, completely depleted of any confidence with respect to my abilities as a husband and lover.
I have always been a VERY sexual guy. A woman's orgasm has always been the BIGGEST turnon for me and I have always been more than willing to do ANYTHING to help my partner get it. Almost to the point of forgoing my own as it has naturally been less important to me than hers.

I just feel mournful because I really cant envision a time where there could actually be any real change to our realtionship. I fear that I am doomed to live in a marriage that closely resembles her parents rather than mine.

tired,

Ok...so she IS behaving as her role model mother taught her to behave. I'd be willing to bet her mother was affectionate with her father when they were dating too....why? Because that's whatchya do when you're dating. That all takes part in the infatuation phase of things.

Glad to hear there doesn't seem to be any abuse in her history, that just complicates things. It's tough enough to try to explain to someone though that affection is a necessary part of a marriage....when they've never seen that growing up in their own homes, so really...she's only doing as she was taught. She has a preconceived notion that the way her parents behaved....IS how a marriage is supposed to be.

I've battled the SAME thing in my own marriage. My parents were openly affectionate with each other, my H's were not. Sex was something I knew I could speak to my parents about...it wasn't shunned, it was talked about as a good/loving thing within a marriage....for my H it was never spoken about, it was a taboo topic, pretty much viewed as something dirty. Chances are this has been reinforced for her her entire life, just as it was for my H. My H (prior to me) chose women who fit right into that mold too....which worked perfectly with his issues. The relationships didn't work, but that vicious cycle worked.

I'm willing to bet that she thinks this is all about SEX with you. It's not, it's about intimacy. It's not just that you want to use her body (which I bet is what she thinks), you want everything that comes with that sexual connection...closeness, intimacy, that special bond. Those are things unfamiliar to her when you talk about SEX.

I'd like to ask you a question. Have you ever turned HER down for sex? I mean, when you initiate....and she's giving a below part effort....do you ever stop and say, "I'm not doing this."??

GEL

Have to agree with GEL on this one - my H is the same way. During the courting period he was wonderful, even for the first couple of years. But then it started going down hill. The closer he got to me emotionally, the more he pulled away. He couldn't handle it because that isn't what he knew from a kid. His mother was particularly cold - that is how he remembers her "a cold person" although he was close to his dad. However, he NEVER saw them show any type of affection to each other and they slept in separate beds (which was more due to the space issue than anything else - i.e. 2 children, one boy one girl, only two very small bedrooms in a VERY small cottage in the boonies) but the fact still remains, no emotion from mum, no way to relate to it when you grow up

Have to agree with GEL on this one - my H is the same way. During the courting period he was wonderful, even for the first couple of years. But then it started going down hill. The closer he got to me emotionally, the more he pulled away. He couldn't handle it because that isn't what he knew from a kid. His mother was particularly cold - that is how he remembers her "a cold person" although he was close to his dad. However, he NEVER saw them show any type of affection to each other and they slept in separate beds (which was more due to the space issue than anything else - i.e. 2 children, one boy one girl, only two very small bedrooms in a VERY small cottage in the boonies) but the fact still remains, no emotion from mum, no way to relate to it when you grow up

GEL,
It is interesting that you say this...

"I'm willing to bet that she thinks this is all about SEX with you. It's not, it's about intimacy. It's not just that you want to use her body (which I bet is what she thinks), you want everything that comes with that sexual connection...closeness, intimacy, that special bond. Those are things unfamiliar to her when you talk about SEX.

On the one hand, I do not beleive that she thinks it is all about using her body, quite the opposite. I think she has a much narrower view, in that, sex is a do-able thing when SHE feels the need or feels "close enough" to do it. However, I do not think she even gets as far as what I am thinking or how I view her through the sexual viewpoint.
I think she views sex either, as an obligation, or a way to ensure that she is doing what she is "supposed" to do as a wife out of insecurity, or as purely getting her own needs met, viewing me as a living dildo. Either way there is little in the way of "togetherness". When I brought up the issue of weather or not "I still satisfied her" she became violently upset and accused me of accuseing her of faking the feeling. I brought this up because her post coital behaviour sent the message that she was "done now" and to be left alone. I felt manipulated and almost used. Kind of a role reversal.

In all our years of marriage I have NEVER denied her sex. Mostly because it is kind of like a starving man inthat there are always stretches of time (min 1 month) between encounters. This time around though, I know I would not be able to perform even if I wanted to. I don't think I am all that willing to run that emotional risk. If I turnher down I am sure she will be highly offended and overtly or passively hostile. However, I dont think it fair to expect me to be able to just turn the sexual fire on and off as her wants/needs dictate. I am just not willing to play that game any more.

In reading my post it seems I did not address the issue you brought up.
I want to be clear that I think my wife does not think I view her as something/someone to be used. I truly thing she does not even get that far.
Sex for her is more about satisfying herself that she is being a "good wife" and that it is her insecurities that drive the need or that she is just meeting her own needs. I never really enter into the picture except as a means to the ends.

If I struggle with performance, it is my issue. It is all in MY head. I need to address the problem. I am the one who is expected to cope with months and months on end, barely being acknowledged and then , when SHE is feeling insecure or needy, I am expected to perform. This has really made me very fragile in my self image as a husband and lover.

If we were having sex regularly (more than once a month) I would feel like she enjoyed it and really WANTED to be with ME. As it is, I am just a living tool to provide for a need every once and a while.

FWIW...it's not a game (not even a mind game) to turn down sex that is not what you are needing. Now, if sex for the pure physical release IS what you are looking for then turning it down would be senseless. However, if you are looking for a partner to be "present", to be "engaged" when you ML then don't accept sub-par. Many women (unfortunately) view sex as an obligation (her background would back this up). Obligatory sex is not satisfactory sex, it doesn't mean she's active, it doesn't mean she gets into it (maybe she does)....it just means she offers up her body for your use.

I'm not even asking you to turn of the sexual desire you have for her if it's there. My point in turning her down is specifically directed at situations where....she just rolls over and lays there. Or has a "lets get this over with" attitude. In me, when my H would do this....I found a switch flipped internally in me that made me feel degraded. I made a decision to stop accepting sex from him when it made me feel that way.

I'll give you an example, this is the first time I did this with my H. One night (it had been MONTHS) I got dressed up, drug my H into our bedroom and began to seduce him, physically he looked aroused. He just laid there....I began to have sex with him and he just laid there. Didn't touch me, just laid there....this made me feel so horrible, he didn't even feel like he was in the room with me, yet he was right under me. I got off of him, got up and put my robe on and said "I'm not doing this!" It literally surprised him. He was shocked that I stopped. Apparently he was enjoying himself....yet you would never know. I explained to him that I wasn't going to have sex with him when he didn't even feel like he was in the room with me....I deserved BETTER than that from him. I didn't go back to having sex with him that night either, even after we talked about it....because his lack of participation just killed that sexual spark in me for him on that night. I went from being horny for him, to "not on your life!"

THAT is what I was getting at when I asked if you'd ever refused your W. If she behaves in this way (and she may not) it's often an attention getter, and it's a respectful thing for you to do for yourself. Oh and, if you do this...and she gets offended, that's HER problem. Don't rescue her from her emotions, make her deal with them. State your side of things, don't settle....and let HER deal with her own emotions as a result.

GEL

GEL,
EXACTLY what I was thinking. I can not / will not continue to be a part of this cycle. Even if it means living a monastic life. It is so fundamentally unfair for BOTH of us to continue this way.
I am just having a problem determining the method in which to approach the issue with her. I am assuming that she will be feeling "the need" sometime in the near future. (it having been nearly 5 months now) When the situationcomes up I suspect that I will simply, gently,yet fimly decline to participate. If asked why, there is my opening to gently explain how I feel. This I am sure will set off a fire storm of recriminations and blamestorming, but at this point I just don't care about any of that. MY NEED is to be sure that she understands how what she does is affecting me. I am just a little squeamish about broaching the subject of the "little blue pill" with her as I think this will be a MAJOR problem that will not be received well. Regardless of how I explain it she will turn it back on me I just know it.

Have you thought about writing her a letter, conveying the depth of hurt you have been going through, how you feel about all of it, how you see it? And, what you have to do about it now (stop the game, or whatever).

You could give it to her now, or when she is expecting you to perform.

You write well. And, you probably can anticipate her complaints/on-the-fly rebutle. But, if it's all on paper, and you're not around when she reads it, maybe she'll give some of it time to sink in. Besides, it sounds like face-to-face communication doesn't work well for you two.

Don't take my word for it, though. Just a thought.

Also, is she otherwise happy/"normal".

And, again, I know this probably doesn't help. But, I can really sympathize with the need for the blue pill. Honestly, before I ever read your thread, I've thought there may come a day soon when there may be too much resentment involved to successfully accept her begrudgingly given time in the sack. There have been some close calls.

Also, Cemar recommended to me a book called "The Way of the Superior Man". I've had it for a day and read a few bits and pieces, and I think it has something to say that I need to hear, especially about how she percieves me as a sexual being, and how maybe I live my life too much at her whim. You might check it out: http://www.amazon.com/Way-Superior-Man-S...78229521&sr=1-1

It's an unusual book, and seems to be just one man's opinion, but there also seems to be some wisdom to be gleaned....taking what I need and will leave the rest

Fiji,
Yes, I have thought about writing her and laying it all out there for her. A good suggestion. The only problem I see with it is that, over the years any dis-satisfaction on my part is viewed, by her, as "MY PROBLEM", or that I am equally at fault for the existance of the issue. FWIW, she is very skilled at negating, or minimalizing my feelings. It is as though I am a shmuck for feeling them.
The reverse is also true with her. I.E. Her feelings are very important and I should be made aware of them. I should be more accomodating to them. I should be more atune to how she is feeling.

Fact is, I am acutely aware of how she is feeling. I submit that I am more aware of her feelings than she is, if that is possible.
Meaning that I am aware that weather or not I do the dishes is not the real catalyist for her feelings, it is just an easy door to open to allow her to vent freestyle. It allows her to unload, without identifying what truly is at issue. It allows her to put a face and personality to her undefined (or unrefined) dissatisfaction (dont know if that makes sense or not).

Thank you for the complement on my writing. I speak the same way and it can be both a blessing, (at work) and a curse (at home). It is one thing I have always taken seriously in that, words have real power. I express myself as clearly and as precisely as I can. ( though I can not spell worth a damn).
Sometimes, I am sure, this is a source of irritation for her. On some level I think she gets frustrated because I am able to put words to my FEELINGS rather than to my JUDGEMENTS. The fact that I am in tune with my true self to some degree, coupled with an ability to put voice to that, may be a bit much for her. (lightbulb going on now....amazing what putting this down can do for a guy who spends WAY TOO MUCH TIME in their own head)

I read "wild at heart" and got a lot out of it. I will look up this book as well and see what it has to say. THing is , as hen pecked as I sound, I am a pretty stron personality everywhere else in my life, except with her. However, the times they are a changin.