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Root,,I know i've talked to you before but am not sure if you remember me. I hope you get thru these feelings you just mentioned quickly!

I'm at a loss at this point in time,,I have the DB queen herself telling me that my M is not savageable and that 4 yrs separated is too long! Then an H who I think is stringing me along to postpone a D in order to make sure I don't get anything! I think i've hit rock bottom and i'm trying to get myself back up but is hard.

Your wisdom is great, and I enjoy reading your posts! Do you have any advice on how I proceed w/a 'D' with someone who Michele says is "cavelier"? I'm an emotional wreck and he is pissed that I want to divide everything including his busineses, 401k, life Ins., etc. and has the gall to ask me for $300/mon in child support when we both have the kids 50/50?! Everyone tells me that he is stringing me along, gives me just enough attention(but no sex) to keep me from filing w/mediator or atty,,(H wants us to do it ourselves & not get the earlier 2 mentioned involved),,but H has a lot more money than I but denies it! Has started a couple businesses w/o me knowing & I found out on my own later, they are like subsiduaries of the main one! The other wk we had a fight, I was very mean I have to admit but I was frustrated w/him not noticing my changes,,oops, there those changes went right thru the window,,then thur. I tell him that we need to meet to figure out what we need to split, then get into an R talk-not good-H says I don't agree w/Michele, I thought that the C we had before gave us all the right tools to use to save our M but we didn't use them(maybe 2wks for each) then I told him that that C was just interested in us D'ing has been waiting for me to get so fed up knowing that H would never move in w/me even tho he(C) was setting dates & H was postponing everyone of them, that i'd say enough is enough, 5-6yrs w/C(not our 1st either) to work on our M, while we are living in separate houses(4+yrs) & I told you I couldn't handle the bills alone,,he didn't care! He never came back! H is still seeing the same C, i'm not for various reasons. I've gotten nasty or very patronizing e-mails from H and we never go anywhere together since last year its' always separate, we don't see each other unless its' for boys scout functions or to pick up or drop off boys. H doesn't initiate, I use to until I read the book & decided to stop only to find H going dark! Last time we ML was in April after a planned R talk@my house & even then he had to get drunk to do anything! Can't understand this,,I thought if I withheld sex that that would bring him closer to me,,sex has never been a problem for us,,has always been fun & diff.!

How did you put up w/the lies?? My H lies even about stuff w/the kids and where they go when they are w/him! Has kept me from HIS side of the family(very hurtful)!I am getting C'ing for the kids (H told me that kids are fine they don't need it & if you take them-you pay for it!) NICE!!

SORRY FOR THE HIJACK!! I WAS JUST ON A ROLL!

Thanks, Kim

Hi ROOT-
I guess the roller coaster is hard to get off of huh! The feelings you have are valid. Can you discuss them with your H? You know that even if his perception is that he has a better time with OW, it isn't reality. You can't compare apples to oranges. What he has with you is real, but it is hard to compete with fantasy. Hopefully your H sees some of that reality. Hopefully when he reflects on his life, he will see that honoring his committment to you and your M is far more valuable than a any fantasy.

I do believe my H is in MLC. I have been posting over there for a while now. My thread over there is Anybody need a friend? I do!!! My H has completely backed away from me. He doesn't make any contact except for when necessary. Next week is our anniversary and his bday. I asked if he wanted to do something and he couldn't tell me...just said he has to work! I give up. I think I need to move on because I believe he is just avoiding dealing with anything. I don't think that I can wait around to watch him do nothing. He can't make a move in any direction. It is truly sad. I hope that he will come back to reality someday before it is too late, but I can't hold onto that anymore.

Stay strong. You are a beautiful, intelligent, loving person and your H would have to be crazy not to see and appreciate that. You can't dwell on your negative thoughts, they will only bring you down. Your H is there with you and your kids. Life is never perfect so appreciate what you do have and focus on that. I am sure I am not telling you anything new but maybe you just need to be reminded.

Keep the positive thoughts going.

<3 Upside

Hi Kim,

You (and anyone else) are always welcome to post on my thread.

Right now I'm swimming through some rocky currents in my own marriage so it's kind of nice to take a break from it and spend a little time thinking about someone else's situation....

Four years of separation does seem like a very long time. I think you need to try and take a very hard objective look at the entire situation and consider what is best for you and your children. What do you gain, or lose by divorce at this point (especially looking at the finanical angle)? How will it affect your kids (financially and emotionally)?

If, after going over pros and cons, you do decide that divorce really is the best option then I think you need to start planning very methodically the best way to do this. With a husband hiding money, I might consider hiring a private investigator to gather financial information and find the best attorney. Since you have time and there's no rush (from him), you have time to research and plan this out. That's not so bad....

Has your husband always been cavalier? What brought you two together in the first place? What motivates him? I know I was very divided about sex and separation and divorce, but it seemed like everything I read encouraged continuing that connection if possible. I think the bigger question would have been could you yourself handle having sex with someone who was not fully connected to you? Can you still emotionally detach while maintaining a sexual relationship?

Now, if you do decide not to divorce (possible reasons; better for the kids, financial stability for you and them....), then I think you need to live your life entirely for you. Don't make changes for your husband, do them for you and don't give a blank about whether he notices or not. It's NOT for him the changes are for you. Sheesh he's a blind man!!!. Don't try to lure him back, don't go to counselors to figure out "how to make the marriage work," and stop taking anything he says personally. You need to emotionally detach entirely so if he sends nasty emails or talks demeaning you can just smile inside and see the humor in it all!!!! YES humor!!! And think, oh gosh, it's that cranky old coot again needing to let off some steam!!!! At this point why care about his emotionalisms. Life is short... go enjoy it.

Hey Upside Down,

I'll have to take a look at your thread on MLC. There's some great reading on that board. I think you'll gain some good wisdom there. Actually, it already sounds like you already have.... I can tell there's a lot of strength and goodness in you. By the way, thanks for the kind words!

Unfortunately, I can't talk with my husband about my feelings about OW because he takes it personal and always thinks I'm "rubbing" the situation in his face. It doesn't matter how delicately I try to do this, he's extremely sensitive and doesn't want to hear anything about OW at all. And refuses to share any feelings, thoughts or details about that relationship.

I think much of his reaction has to do with how I behaved after his first affair (the post baby one! He had his first affair -- a very short 2 month EA with just a little PA, nothing major -- after the second child was born). After that first affair which he freely admitted to me out of guilt, I emotionally lost it and put him through a year of complete insanity. I was extremely angry and hurt, and I was very mean to him during that time. I was also a young woman so I was a lot more self-centered and ignorant.

This time (with the MLC "exit affair") I've been much more level-headed and I have even tried to be very understanding and supportive. But he doesn't trust me, and doesn't feel "safe" talking with me about it, so I cannot really talk with him about my feelings. We do go to MC once a month so I'm sure we'll go through things there. That's a "safe place."

In the meantime I've done a lot of damage this week. I said some stupid things to try and manipulate him into giving me details. Gosh I'm soooo bad!!!! Anyhow, it's been kind of gut wrenching and nutty. I did increase my celexa slightly (1/4 a pill) to help me.... so I'm on this fabulous serotonin high right now! I'm not sure where my marriage is going at this moment. I guess there's this part of me bracing for "the end" and being very accepting of whatever way this goes. He did tell me that he thinks that he used to try and run away from his problems (the affairs, previous separations, wanting to leave), and he now thinks I'm trying to do that because I told him I'm open to whatever he wants to do. But I don't think that. I think it's more me testing him and preparing myself for him running away again.

Oh well.... that's my drama this week!

Hi ROOT-

Why does it seem that we, the LBS's or whatever you want to call us, always internalize everything? IMO, you are NORMAL. What you have had to go through isn't normal. From what little I know about you, you have endured a lot. Again IMO, your H owes you so much for YOUR patience and understanding. I'm sorry but whatever your part of it was, you didn't deserve what he did. He should be trying to earn your trust again and you shouldn't feel like you have to walk on eggshells. After my first M ended, I had major trust issues because my first H cheated on me. When I met my current H, he was willing to go the extra mile to help me with my trust issues (ironic that now I will have trust issues when it comes to him). Of course, he and I were just dating or newly married, but he wasn't the one who needed to repair the damage done and he was still willing to do whatever it took. That was probably the main reason I married him. IMHO, your H should be willing to do whatever it takes to make you feel comfortable to help repair things after what he has done. Now that being said, I am not sure that goes along with the DBing way of thinking, but regardless, you need to respect yourself. Give yourself (and your H should give you some too)some slack about your insecurities when it comes to what you have gone through. You are human.


How is your H thinking he isn't still running away when...



Give yourself credit. What you are going through is extremely difficult at best. If your H can't allow you to be human then why is that you should try to get past what he has done.

Again, this is just my opinion but hopefully it might give you a different way to look at things. Please forgive me if I offended you in any way.

Find the strength that you had before you went on vacation. It is still within you.

(((hugs))) and <3 Upside

Upside Down,

Thanks for your kind and supportive words. Yes, you are right in many ways. However, I also know my husband's limitations. Verbally expressing his feelings, giving reassurance and explaining things are not his strength. And this is something I recognize and accept in him. (In fact, it's probably something I originally found attractive in him).

My husband and I are polar opposites. His weaknesses are my strengths (and vice versa). I'm verbal. I'm the caretaker, relationship fixer, etc... Even though I won't walk on eggshells anymore (been there!), I do need to be tactful and considerate. And I do need to try and communicate clearly to him. And trying to manipulate him into telling me things that he's afraid to talk to me about isn't a good way to do it. Somehow I need to get him comfortable talking to me. And unfortunately, we have years of him seeing me as a verbal bully. I was in a lot of pain after that first affair and in that pain and anger I lashed out at him quite a bit. Yes, the affair was wrong, but I verbally cut him to shreds about it....

Oh well... enough of me. How's your week going? How are you doing?

ROOT-
Hopefully you are in a better place than you were a few days ago. Promise me that there well be no more beating yourself up!!!...I am one to talk...I do it too! Now, I am not sure what you did to manipulate your H to get him to talk to you, but was it really that bad? And obviously in your years together, your H was comfortable communicating at some points. Can you try to recreate that in anyway? If your H stood by you after you "verbal cut him to shreds" why would he leave after you were just trying to get him to open up? I hope things are better for you today.

My week has been okay. I am getting ready to close escrow on my new house on Friday. That scares me to death, but I am going for it. I hope and pray that I will be able to handle it financially and otherwise. It is a brand new house with no yard or anything...yikes!!!

Anyway, today I've been up and down. I had to go by my H's office today to drop off checks. It was awkward when I saw him but I kept it all business except for answering his questions about the kids. I cried when I left there just wondering why he is doing this to us. After that I had a C session. I think it confused me more. My C told me that I should contact my H and ask him to do something with me (drinks, movie, dinner or something). I don't know if this is a good idea since I seem to be better when I don't have contact with him. But since leaving the C's office, I have an idea rolling around in my head because we talked about how my H isn't moving in any direction. So, please let if you think that this is a good idea or not. I want to talk to my H and tell him that unless he is really starting to work on himself, then one of us is going to have to file.

I don't think my H is continuing his C. He still has my picture up all over his office. Most of his clothes and belongings are still here. Financially we haven't figured anything out. He still says he loves me (and is in love with me) but doesn't seem to care to talk to me or spend time with me. He is either living in corporate housing or staying at his friends house so he has made no decision on where he reallly wants to live. He agrees that it makes more sense to work on our M then to go out and find other relationships. He is a walking bundle of question marks!!! From what I can see, he is content for now to live like he is. I can't wait forever just for him to do something. I know pushing him always gives me the reverse reaction of what I was hoping for but what else am I supposed to do? Today was the first time I had spoken with my H in 6 days and it didn't seem to matter to him.

I really need input on this. Should I continue to wait and give him space or do I tell him I need for him to work on himself so he can make a move one way or the other...knowing that it will probably be the other?

<3 Upside

I'd probably begin considering him like a guy I don't know too well, but am sort of interested in, and ask him out on a date. Make it just dinner or ??? And then start slow like friends. I wouldn't pursue (just like you wouldn't pursue someone you don't know too well). I'd ask him and if he couldn't make it I wouldn't be upset, just say, "Well, maybe some other time..." And then let it go. Maybe not ask again for awhile. Or ask in a way that's very open and easy. "Hey, I just happened to be free on ..... if you're free and maybe a little bored how about we go....."

And then NO relationship talk, listen listen listen... and be a friend!

From what you're describing, it almost sounds like depression or some hormonal imbalance. Is something worrying your husband? Health issues, other family members with health issues. From the limited information I've gathered about your sitch, he doesn't sound like someone in an affair. There's usually more anger....

I have to look more closely on what you've written on the MLC board when I have some extra time.... Making pumpkin bread right now!

Hi ROOT-
Pumpkin bread sounds so good right now. I am looking forward to getting into my new kitchen to do some baking. I don't care for the kitchen where I am at right now.

A week ago, I did suggest to my H that he and I do something for our anniversary or our H. He avoided giving me an answer. I may try to suggest something again but I really hate putting myself out there.

I agree that my H must be suffering from MLC, depression and/or hormonal imbalance but it is all so strange. I seem to be (and my kids by default) the only one he wants to really cut out of his life. To everyone else he puts on a happy face and it is life as usual. He did have one day where he blew off work and didn't tell his partner he wasn't coming in so I talked to his partner about everything. He knew we were seperated but he thought I was the one having the MLC (because I bought a new car and a new house)! He said my H never seems depressed but he said he has been acting a little different...somewhat angry and irritable. Anyway, I told his partner things in confidence and well, he threw me under the bus...but that is another story...stupid me!

My H seems to not want to talk to me or spend time with me. I think it is his way of dealing (really not dealing) with things. Maybe he doesn't want to talk to me because I am the one who makes him look at what he is doing. Everybody else walks around like what he is doing it isn't a big deal.

There has been some major upheaval in our lives in the last year. My H had a high power interim position for about 6 month while still trying to keep his law firm going. I think he really enjoyed the power and respect he got from the interim position. I could tell that it changed him. Then in late summer, his D left for college. He didn't really act like it was a big deal, but I think it really made him start looking hard at his life. At the beginning of this year, he moved his office. I don't think that was a big deal except for the stress of getting it all done. In February, we sold our house and moved into my father's house (7,000 sq.ft.). My H wanted the house, I really didn't. Three weeks later, is when he left. I think he realized that the house was too much for him/us. I think it was a combination of everything that lead us to this.

Well, I just called my H and asked him if he wants to go to lunch tomorrow. Before I had a chance to ask about lunch, the phones at his office went out...in the minute we had to talk, he said his computer network crashed...karma!!! Anyway, he sent me a text to tell me about the phones. I replied very nicely saying I was sorry for all of the problems he was having and that I just wanted see if he wanted to go to lunch tomorrow. He said sure.

Now, can I go and have no R talk?...I don't know. I really don't know what I want at this moment. I don't want to be in a relationship where I have to walk on eggshells. I want a man to love me, want to be with me and make an effort to be with me. I want the man I married but I'm not sure he exists anymore. So, with that being said, part of me wants to go and just talk about how to divid everything up...and then there is the hopeful part of me that wants to believe we can get past this.

Hope you are doing well today. What is the latest on your sitch? I hope you and your H are working through things.

<3 Upside

Don't do eggshells, but just be a good friend and listener. Do NOT do any relationship talk. Ask lots of impersonal questions, let him TALK and TALK about work, any fun things he might be doing, friends he's seeing, let him talk so he enjoys talking with you. And offer support and understanding... just like you'd do with a good girlfriend who is going through a rough time. Don't expect anything from him. He is going through something and you need to back down and let him think and ponder what he's doing. Do not expect him to be who he was....

I only had a few short seconds to look over a few posts on your thread in MLC and one thing that struck me was.... well... do you think perhaps, the relationship started a bit quick? Sort of like a whirlwind romance? I could be wrong here, but I'm wondering if he bounced quickly between his previous marriage and you, and you two didn't get a chance to develop a slow, solid friendship before the marriage. What do you think about this?

My own sitch... well, we're still in a strange place. Not very comfortable because it feels like avoidance. There's this problem (things I brought up) hanging above us and neither of us wants to address it. Not good, but I don't think we're running away from each other so that's positive.

P.s. I know you are frustrated and want more out of a relationship, but you lose nothing by being his friend and working on your conversational skills with someone who is part of the male population. Even if your marriage is over you can consider this practice for future dating... not a great thought, but as I said... you lose nothing...