Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums We're separated--What Now? Need help with goal related to physical affection

I'm having trouble with one of my goals, and was hoping someone would have better ideas than I do! This is my first posting, so here's a brief summary of my sitch:

Oct. 2006: "I'm happier without you than with you." He felt that we hadn't been "emotionally intimate" in a long time. He'd been unhappy for a long time. I was clueless. I was happy. Although, in retrospect, I see that we had some problems.
Dec. 2006: I found out about OW. It's an old flame who had reconnected with over e-mail and phone calls. Hadn't actually seen her in person for almost 20 years. He felt that he couldn't pursue that relationship without leaving me. He moved out.
Jan - April: He visits OW every other weekend, but still spends a fair amount of time with me. Walks our dog every afternoon that he's in town. We make dinner together ; go for walks; and sometimes talk R.
April 2006: H and OW decided to stop seeing each other because "it's just wrong"; they feel too guilty. They have ceased contact. (She lives in another state)
May 2006: H agrees to see MC with me, but only to better understand what happened; not to actually work on R. I"ll take what I can get J. We've had 3 sessions. Also took off his wedding ring and says he doesn't have any reason to believe that we could reconcile.


So, back to my goal (which has been on my list for months):
- Passioniate kiss or other indication that he feels chemistry.

We've always gotten along really well, but lost the passion in our relationship over the years. It's been a long time since we've ML. In doing a "Love Languages" exercise, "physical affection" came out really high for H (he made it #1 at first; then changed it to #2). But, I'm having a hard time improving this. At some level, I just want to go to Victoria's Secret, and surprise him with a sexy negligee, but I think he'd see that as contrived and desperate. Even my attempts to touch him more - just touching his shoulder or rubbing his back in passing - might be seen by him as contrived. My MC says I need to flirt. Ahh! I'm terrible at this. Over the past 8 months, I've probably managed to say 2 or 3 really flirtatious things. My best one was after reading "Rekindling the Romance". H asked about it; and I said something like, "I got some good ideas from this book, but it doesn't seem like now's the time. You just let me know when you're ready!" He smiled.

Here's what I have done in trying to reach this goal:
- We almost always hug when we part. I've decided never to end the hug. I wait for him. I also caress his back a bit during the hug. Been doing this for a few months. Got one peck on the mouth as a hug ended; otherwise, this doesn't seem to have changed anything, except the hugs are longer
- Dressing up when we go out. I wear skirts, earrings, maybe a top/blouse that he picked out for me. Nothing too "sexy", but nice. I know he likes this. He's commented. I also got the "why didn't you do this before…" Sigh. Should I wear something downright sexy next time?
- Making it clear that he can spend the night at our (my?) house. We've been separated since December. Upon occasion, he sleeps in the guest room - usually on a Friday or Saturday (no work in the morning), when he's had a bit too much to drink. Over the last several weeks, he's slept with me in our bed twice. The first time kind of sucked. We both stayed completely on our sides of the bed - pretty much no touching. The second time was better. We snuggled, as we used to - but nothing more. He talked about staying over last Saturday night, but asked if the sheets in the guest room were clean. Yes. But not on the bed yet. My parents visited earlier in the week. I'd washed the sheets, but hadn't put them on yet. I said I'd help him put them on the bed, but he just decided to go back to his apartment.
- Wear sexy underwear. Seems like there's the off chance he might see it, even if it's just in the laundry basket (he often does laundry at the house). It also just makes me feel more sexy and attractive. No noticeable affect, except that it takes me longer to dress in the morning.
- Touching his shoulder or rubbing his back in passing.
- Hugs/holding him when one or the other of us is crying. This is fairly common during R talk.

My one real "success" is hard for me to explain. Way back in January, he kissed me passionately. If he hadn't still been involved with OW, I think it would have gone farther. The sitch was that I'd found out about OW in December, and gave up on any short-term reconciliation. I figured he needed to figure out what was going on with OW, before there was any chance for us. So, I backed off completely, and became just a friend. No R talk; no crying; made my own plans, signed up for a kick-boxing class... This had been going on for maybe a month. We still saw each other fairly regularly, but just friends. We were at the house talking, somehow it came out that I'd been to see MC. He was surprised, since he thought I'd given up. I explained that I hadn't *totally* given up, but thought he needed space and to figure out the OW thing. Plus, seeing the MC is useful to me even if we don't get back together - God knows I don't want to make the same mistakes in some other relationship. This opened up a big R talk. He was sitting across the room. Can't remember if he was crying or just upset. I went over to comfort him. He was in a big chair, so I just sat on his lap and gave him a big hug. Boom! He was kissing me! Like I said, I'm not quite sure what happened. We've had lots of R talks, kind of like this one. Tears. Hugging. The thing that stands out as different is that he found out I hadn't given up. So, now he knows. Can't really do that again until/unless I give up again.

So, any ideas? What should I do? I'm worried that there is no chance of him feeling connected and wanting to really reconcile without a stronger physical connection. But he's not very open to a stronger physical connection because he doesn't think there's any hope for the relationship. Plus I think he's still in love with OW. I feel a little stuck.

Oh, one more concept that came from my MC... I need to show him that I need him. Men are attracted to women that need them; that they can protect and take care of. How do I do that?!! It seems too trivial to ask for help with stuff around the house - although I definitely need this. I've fallen completely behind on stuff like calling a plumber, getting the sprinklers turned on, trimming the shrubs... Hard to believe he's going to want to kiss me because I need help pruning. Bigger "needs" feel too much like pursuing. I need him because he "manages" me so well; I "need" him to make me feel safe and secure (I have actually mentioned this and he doesn't believe it); I need him to manage our finances...

Any suggestions are appreciated.

- TreadingWater
(we're still seeing each other regularly; he hasn't filed for divorce; but that's where we've been for months)

Hmm, it seems like you have the bases covered. That is an excellent goal and your efforts seem solid.

The only thing I can think of it, your H went to another woman because he wasn't getting something from you - that's the theory, anyway. Any idea what it is? It's probably not physical touch, right? What was the other LL he speaks? Maybe words of affirmation? I know that ended up being a biggie for me, even though physical touch is my #1. Funny thing is I didn't even realize WOA was important to me...until I didn't have it the last 3 years.

Keep working it, I don't know if anyone else here has such detailed goals and tactics - so congrats on that.

Hmmm. Lots to digest.

Not that I am an expert here by any means, but even though the physical aspect for most guys is very important, I think your issue lies elsewhere. And that is the "emotionally distant" portion. The physical stuff will get going once the emotional stuff is moving, so you do need to be ready for that (I would definitely buy the sexy underwear, dress sexy (you might even go a bit slutty if you never leaned this way before - that will get his attention - after re-reading your comment "nothing too sexy" I'd say it's required), and really work on the flirting (there are some books called "Supersex" that are really good around this)).

But I think you need to work on the emotional connection. I can hardly believe I'm saying this because I am so bad at it. But I think you need to find ways to get closer to him this way. I'd try to do more fun stuff together. Ride horses, go exploring, get lost, go crazy, wine tasting, hot air ballooning, crash a wedding, do fun things out of character. Each of you put 5 things in a hat and pick one out to do each weekend (later when you are ML you can do this for some really interesting fun!). Do some 180s and include him in the adventure. Make life with you so fun he wouldn't consider leaving.

But remember, you need to do it without expectations. Basically your mindset needs to be: "I'm planning to do <fun thing> this weekend and I'd love for you to join me." If he does, great, if not go have fun yourself. And you didn't mention what his new first LL is. Hopefully it's quality time. If it's gifts, buy him a fun thing that he can do with you.

One other thing: the hug thing seems like pursuing to me. You want him to want to hug you. If there is no scarcity, he won't seek it. Skip the hugs for a while and see what he does. I'll bet after a few days he comes to you. What's the down side?

On your "real" success, he thought you were gone. You can slightly recreate that feeling in him by GALing and not waiting around for him so much. Get on with your life and see if he wants to join you in it.

On the physical stuff, I think you are pursuing too much. He knows he can stay over, he sees you hugging him and rubbing him, and knows you would ML at the drop of a hat. I'd create some mystery: back off a bit, but be ready if he initiates. Just let him chase you more.

Lastly, on the needing him thing. I'd just take care of what you need to, let him know you will be doing it, and let him ask to help. Say "I'll be calling the plumber to do some work this weekend" and do it if he doesn't volunteer. But if he does, really let him know how much it means to you that he is there to help, and how much he means to you. I'm sure others will have more (probably better) comments in this area.

In short, I think you'll get to your goal by working on things other than actually kissing, i.e. emotional connection and having fun, doing things out of character, dressing way more sexy and stopping waiting around for him. Sounds like what they call DBing!

Good luck!

Nice post B4S!

You know, I don't feel I should really give advice since my DH left, too... LOL!! BUT I think you're MC is wrong about the needing thing. Needy is not attractive. To be WANTED is totally different. Think about that.

The way our C describes it as... a Healthy R is an H... two people standing on their own, but still connected. An A is what we don't want... where you lean on the other person.

Last week, the toilet flusher thingy (arm thingy) broke. I asked DH to look at it and fix it. He looked at it and was going to fix it the next day. I figured screw it... I didn't need him, I'd fix it myself and I did. I told him and he said good job or something like that. I want to show him I can be independent and it feels kinda good.

I don't know how to take your hugs, because DH always kisses me when he leaves. It's so friggin weird. I won't ask why he does it cuz I don't want hear he feels obligated... LOL!! Now I can tell the different kisses... kinda like your longer hugs. I can tell we're making progress when his kisses are softer and longer (not make out kinda kisses, though). Okay, so I think we're making progress then... LOL!!!

I don't know if it's really flirting or not, but I tell DH he smells good... looks good... looks like he's lost weight, etc.

My DH promised he'd keep his wedding ring on. He hasn't worn it for a couple of weeks and has a couple of excuses. I think he lost it in all his moves from hotel to hotel to finally his apt. *I* took mine off and I won't put it back on. If that ring goes back on my finger, HE will be the one to put it on. He noticed it was off this weekend. I told him I hocked (sp?) it to buy new clothes for my new job. Usually I'd say I was kidding or explain, but I just left it. We talked about it at our C appt this week, but he thinks I did it in retaliation. Not really. Just seemed fake to keep wearing it.

I don't know if this helps any... lol... but maybe it will give you things to think about?

Good luck.

Thanks for the replies and ideas. I *do* have new things to think about.

In response to b4s:

His #1 love language is "Kind Actions." I think he means in the sense of really thoughtful, personal things. I've always done lots of things that I thought were "kind actions", but he says they just made him feel shut out; like I let him off the hook. Mostly this was around running errands and doing household stuff, like shopping, cooking, doing the dishes, waiting on him a bit, cleaning...

My #1 love language is Quality Time, so planning more fun activities would actually be "more of the same." Too bad, since that's what would make me feel better :-)

Just reread all of this and noticed both some more helpful advice and some other quesitons that I haven't answered.

First, I think you're right that I'm pursuing too much... I did really great with the DB'ing until I got a hint that H might want to get back together. Then, I totally backslid (is that a word?) I'm planning my life around him again. I've been telling myself that it's good to spend time with him; and I think it is. But, being available all the time is probably not so good. So, a new goal:

- Get a life! Make plans indepedent of H, at least once a week. I might still invite him to join me, but it will be "I'm doing xwz. Feel free to join me." Not "Want to do xyz?"

The hug thing when we part is usually (although not always) initiated by him. So, I tell myself this is OK. Do you think I shouldn't make a point of not ending it? Or make a point of never initiating? Or even not really make myself available for it?

RE: the reasons for the affair. That's the million dollar question, isn't it? I do think it boils down to the feeling "connected". He doesn't feel connected to me; he feels more like "best friends" or "roommates." (his words). With OW, he has always felt a strong connection. He dated her before me, and says that he's always loved her; always wondered what could of/should of happened. Never really let go. And, all the usual stuff about how he never should have married me; never really felt "connected" to me... we've always just been really good friends.

All that crap about never really loving you, blah, blah, blah is revisioning. It's not true. One guy, I think built4speed, has been slammed with that garbage. His wife said some HURTFUL [censored]!

Anyway, don't worry about that so much. It all boils down to attraction and excitement. Show him you're independent and don't need him (yeah, quit the hugging stuff and make him earn it - guys like to pursue ) and he'll come back. Don't make it easy for him. But don't be completely unavailable, you know? Keep it interesting and unpredictable.

It actually sounds like you've had some good interaction, build on that slowly and surely. Good luck!!!

disclaimer: not a councellor, just a random male opinion


"Should I wear something downright sexy next time?"

yes!!


well, not slutty, but maybe like you're going to a party to find a date. "nice", isnt good enough.
it kinda sounds like he's interested, and is waiting for you to keep showing him you care enough to be a girly girl for him.



that's great!

What I think happened, was that you showed him you are interested, and care about him, but let him be the actual agressive one rather than pursue him.

ie: show him you are available.. but then let him pursue you.

that.. and not to mention that most guys are going to find it veerrry difficult to do nothing when a cute girl is sitting in their lap




its an emotional intimacy builder, not a physical intimacy builder.
first you show him you need him, by asking him for help.
then you tell him/show him appreciation that he helped you. that makes him feel really good about himself, and also shows him that you need him.

(if you bake,and he likes your cooking... bake him a "thank you" gift! )

sounds like your MC is completely right and you need to listen to (her?) more:) ask for specifics from her. right down to "what do i wear, what do i say?"

"i miss you so much i want you to kiss me!!" is needy.

but wearing something sexy, smiling at him gently, leaning close to make your face close to his sometimes (find an "excuse", dont just do it) i think that's some kinds of flirting that could really work for you.

I think it's about coming HALFway to him (or in the case of the lap sitting, 9/10ths of the way to him ) and non-verbally inviting him to come the rest of the way.

PS; I think you shouldnt hang on the hugs until they die. dont cut them short.. but dont just hang on until the bitter end either.
i think touching his back sounds great, if that's something that he has liked. maybe vary things some as well... if he likes you touching his hair.. gently run your fingers through the back, or side of his hair as the hug ends after a while.
or.. strategically turn your head a little, so that as you breathe normally... you just happen to breath in/behind his ear for a second or two and dont forget to smile

A teenietiny bit of perfume, or just some favourite shampoo of his, to excite his nose... is reaaally good as well.

PS; on the guest bed thing... asking for his involvement is maybe too much. maybe if that sort of thing comes up again, just tell him "sure, the guest bed is fine", but then distract him for a while, while you go make the bed so it's ready for him

even when it's ready.. doesnt mean he'll stay there. but if it's not, then he can use it as an excuse to himself to not stay.

better luck next time

You've gotten some great advice here and if you don't mind I'll toss in a bit as well. Again I am just another guy not a counselor. :-)

1) Stop pursuing so much, by doing so you are only pushing him away. Make him feel it more and want it more. I know it's crazy but it's the old hard to get game. Actually think about it in reverse. He's not pursuing you so you are pursuing him. Turn that around on him.

2) Wear sexy things for you, not him. It's all about making you feel good about you. You making you happy. Have no expectations that wearing sexy things will gain his attention.

Also as mentioned, perfume. Find something new that you really like and wear it all the time. Freshen it up just before you see him.

(Side note on the sexy thing issue. You may attract the attention of other men. Be careful here but getting such attraction is very powerful in helping you feel better about you.)

3) Get out and do things for you. I didn't see much about what you are doing for you. As Michele says in her books, get a life. It'll do a few things, help you be happy with yourself, keep your mind occupied off the situation, allow you to be more independent and show him you don't need him and are in control of your own life.

4) Physical contact, for those of us with touch as a primary or strong secondary language touch of all sorts is important. Actually it's the "everyday" touching that really speaks to us. That's the hand on the shoulder or back as someone walks up to us. Or the hand drag across the shoulders in passing, the light touch of the arm, etc, all the non-sexual touching.

Yes sexual touching, hugs, kissing, and sex are extremely important to us and often hard not to pursue. But if you really want to speak the touch language start with the little things. Otherwise it looks/feels like you are only after sex or are needy in that area.

5) The two of you are now settling down into a routine of seeing each other but making no commitments to each other. Sure this is nice but at some point this limboland routine needs to get moving in some direction. (I've been stuck in limbo for some 6 months now but we finally have movement.)

Don't do like I did and push, push, push while in limbo. It created a further chasm. Get independent, get happy with yourself and get to a point where you are happy. Then you will be more attractive not needy and clingy. You want to avoid appearing needy and clingy at almost all cost.

At some point you need to be able to tell him, sorry I have something to do, can't see you tonight. You need to show him you have a life outside of this situation and that this life is important too. IOW you are showing him you are in control of you and aren't needy.

6) Don't do things that look or seem to be manipulative. This was and has been my worst mistake. I came up with all kinds of "strategies and tactics" which she called "manipulative actions". What that told me was I was trying to dang hard. I needed to be much more subtle about it and also not try so desperately to fix it.

7) Its time to review all that you have done. Look at everything and look at the results. If it ain't working then it's time to seriously consider a change. Take a few days and write it all down. Look at what you are doing and look at the result. Be honest with yourself and don't let over optimism or defeatism cloud your review.

8) This is going to sound counter to something I said earlier about getting independent. But it's ok to ask for his assistance on stuff. Just do it so that you don't come across as needy. My wife has really gotten good at this to the point she's readily admitted she won't ask because she doesn't want me to feel like she's taking advantage of me. Generally she'll tell me about something and ask for my advice on how to solve it. What's she's doing is asking if I would consider fixing it and if not how can she get it fixed. Yesterday she mentioned the grout in the our new bathroom came out. She wanted to know if she should call the contractor. What she was asking is if I knew how to fix it and gauging my willingness to fix it.

So there you go a lot of things to consider. Good luck and use the forum here to get ideas, give ideas, journal your thoughts and vent your frustrations. You have a great community here that you can use to great advantage.